Pat, You mentioned going to Thorold and finding your John Boyle involved in the Orange Lodge in Thorold, Ontario. Did you happen to find other Castlecomer names or families in the records of that area when you were there? I live in Toronto, now, and am interested in learning more about this Thorold area and any Castlecomer connections there may be. My Comer area Large/Kavanagh family first went to Canada in 1844 before their appearance in Pennsylvania in 1850. Family stories tell that they went to PA because of family religious differences that followed them to Canada. ( I have a Mary Large who married a John Boyle of Gurteen in 1805 in the Church of Ireland in Comer, but I think I already told you that?). Am hoping to check out Canadian sources while I am living up here. Deb Deborah Large Fox Help! The Faerie Folk Hid My Ancestors! http://irishfamilyresearch.blogspot.com

I think you are right, Jack. It's a human nature thing and not anything to do with Irish nature. Most of the things I'm curious about have no answer. Anne ----- Original Message ----- From: <JackLangton@aol.com> To: <irl-kil-castlecomer@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2011 10:52 AM Subject: Re: [IRL-KIL-CASTLECOMER] Orange Lodge in Ontario, Canada > Hi Anne, > > It is an interesting question and perhaps, as you say, unanswerable. I > think it may have more to do with human nature than with Irish nature. > Your rellies may have been considered blow-ins by the more established > townspeople, and were resented simply for that. A look may have led to a > word, and > a word to a confrontation, and the fat was in the fire. All speculation, > of course, and you may never know. Anyway, thanks for the info on the > Orange > Lodge, I had no idea what it was. > > Jack Langton > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > IRL-KIL-CASTLECOMER-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Hi Anne, It is an interesting question and perhaps, as you say, unanswerable. I think it may have more to do with human nature than with Irish nature. Your rellies may have been considered blow-ins by the more established townspeople, and were resented simply for that. A look may have led to a word, and a word to a confrontation, and the fat was in the fire. All speculation, of course, and you may never know. Anyway, thanks for the info on the Orange Lodge, I had no idea what it was. Jack Langton

I think my question is unanswerable. I have read a bit about the Orange Lodges, but still don't understand the significance. I wonder why two Protestants would have an argument about holding the town council meetings in an Orange Lodge when virtually everyone was Protestant. It seems obviously inappropriate now, but in 1868 in an isolated farming community why was this considered a problem? This area was settled in 1830 and the first Orange Lodge was erected in 1831. There were Orange Lodges erected before churches. My ancestor was from Castlecomer, but 2/3's of the population was from Northern Ireland. I'm very curious as to why a Presbyterian would refuse to hold town council meetings in an Orange Lodge in an "agressively" Protestant area. We, who live in the area, do not seem to understand the Orange Lodges. I think the Orange Lodges seemed to have died out in the US and Canada after WWI. I thought perhaps someone, in Ireland, would understand why two Presbyterians would argue about holding council meetings in an Orange Lodge and why one Protestant would accuse another of being prejudiced against the Orange Lodge. Anne ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pat Connors" <nymets22@gmail.com> To: <irl-kil-castlecomer@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2011 12:57 PM Subject: Re: [IRL-KIL-CASTLECOMER] Orange Lodge in Ontario, Canada > Interesting you should mention the Ontario Orange Lodge on the Castlecomer > mailing, I guess I missed the previous message which I will go to the > archives to see. > > My ancestor, John Boyle b 1788 was a Wesleyan Methodist from the > Castlecomer area who emigrated to Thorold, Ontario, Canada. He was one of > the Orange Lodge that help defend Thorold against the Fenian raids. I was > up in Thorold this summer and this was new info for me. > > > > I contacted the rootsweb list for the County of Dufferin, Ontario, Canada >> regarding the Orange Lodge. >> > > > > -- > Pat Connors, Sacramento CA > http://www.connorsgenealogy.com > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > IRL-KIL-CASTLECOMER-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Interesting you should mention the Ontario Orange Lodge on the Castlecomer mailing, I guess I missed the previous message which I will go to the archives to see. My ancestor, John Boyle b 1788 was a Wesleyan Methodist from the Castlecomer area who emigrated to Thorold, Ontario, Canada. He was one of the Orange Lodge that help defend Thorold against the Fenian raids. I was up in Thorold this summer and this was new info for me. I contacted the rootsweb list for the County of Dufferin, Ontario, Canada > regarding the Orange Lodge. > -- Pat Connors, Sacramento CA http://www.connorsgenealogy.com

Hello Jack, I contacted the rootsweb list for the County of Dufferin, Ontario, Canada regarding the Orange Lodge. No one understands why there would be a dispute about holding the town council meetings in the Orange Lodge. There were about 3,450 people living in Mulmur Township at the time (1868). Only 20 0f them were Catholic and the rest were various Protestant denominations. The area was referred to as "Orange County" as the majority of people were from Northern Ireland and Protestant. The person who were refusing to hold the meetings in the Orange Lodge was Presbyterian. The person who was angry, because they would not hold the meetings in the Orange Lodge, did not sign his name to the letter, but he must have been Protestant and a member of the Orange Lodge. He accuses the clerk of the town council, who happened to be a Presbyterian, of being prejudiced against the Orange Lodge. I think it may have just been a matter of two people not liking each other. The person who wrote the letter complaining about the council refusing to hold the meetings in the Orange Lodge stated that the building in which they held the meetings was not fit for pigs or serpents. I think he was just a disgruntled person who greatly exagerated the situation. No one responded to his letter and so I think he was a well known crank who was not taken very seriously. The clerk was reelected 14 times and was obviously popular. Later, on in the letter, he referrs to my ancestor as being disgusting and so I am predisposed to think unkindly of the letter writer. Anne Fisher

MR. D. KAVANAGH. The sudden death of Denis Kavanagh, Clashduff has come as a great shock to his family and many friends in the area. A quiet, kind and reserved man he loved the countryside and the company of his neighbours in Clashduff. His home was his castle and he took great pride in his garden and flowerbeds. Noted in the locality for a daily errand of mercy he sadly went to his eternal reward on route last Thursday. How proud he would have been of all who helped out during the wake at the family home in particular the shuttle service in reverse up the avenue. He was laid to rest in the Parish Cemetery after Requiem Mass celebrated in the Church of the Immaculate Conception by Fr. Joe Campion C.C. Castlecomer assisted by Msgr. Michael Ryan P.P. Castlecomer. He is survived by his brothers Michael (Cobh, Co. Cork), John (Ballyragget) ; sisters Eileen (Dublin), Marie (Ardfert Co. Kerry), Alice (Tralee Co. Kerry) ; other relatives and a wide circle of friends. Date of this item added : 2011-11-14

MR. W. WALLACE. The death has taken place in Leytonstone, London of Walter Wallace formerly of Kilkenny Street. In his 92nd year he emigrated to England at the age of seventeen like so many of his era seeking employment. He joined the RAF and travelled the world in that service. On his return to England he worked for London Transport. Walter never forgot his roots and in keeping with his last wishes his ashes were interred in the Parish Cemetery after Requiem Mass celebrated in the Church of the Immaculate Conception by Msgr. Michael Ryan P.P. Castlecomer assisted by Fr. Joe Campion C.C. Castlecomer ; Fr. Liam Shore P.E. Castlecomer. He is survived by his wife Agnes ; sons Kevin, Gerard, Declan ; brothers Joe, Kevin ; other relatives and a large circle of friends both in Comer and London. Date of this item added : 2011-11-14

TO THE COMMUNITY OF CASTLECOMER AND ITS HINTERLAND. >From the Castlecomer Forum Nov 14, 2011 Canon Tom and Hazel Sherlock, Castlecomer Rectory. “On this my last day as Rector of the Castlecomer Union and before we move and settle into retirement at Castlequarter, Kildorrery, Co. Cork. We do not know whether we are coming or going, pots, pans, delph, accumulated gifts, books and clutter everywhere, we actually haven’t seen the floor for a few weeks. Well ! Here we are as we await Gibbons Removal Co. to transport us to Cork. During the last eleven years in your midst and having built up excellent relationships with you all it was no easy matter making the decision to retire and depart from among you. They were a wonderful eleven years as we worked together and the support and encouragement we received from all sections of the community. I could keep typing for a long time of the many reminders I have come across as I endeavour to declutter as to what to keep and what to throw away. On the evening of Monday 24th October when Hazel and myself were invited to the Castlecomer Community School for refreshments following which we received presentations from FAS, Castlecomer Development Association, Castlecomer District Hospital, The Colliery Christian Housing Association and Finnan Ballyragget Vintage, we were both astounded by your generosity and appreciation of our time among you. It was a night to remember with gratitude and Hazel and myself were overwhelmed by that wonderful farewell and overgenerous gifts, it has helped to cement our relationships with you as we now take our leave, we have fond and lasting memories of our time with you and that we love God and each other. Hazel and myself would like to express our deep gratitude to you all for your kindness and generosity of gifts showered on us and your friendship to us during our time among you. To all especially to all who have called to the Rectory during the last two weeks with cards and gifts, please accept this note as a sincere thank you as it would be difficult to contact you all personally they will help us to fondly remember you all. May God’s richest blessing be on all your organisations and please remember you are always welcome to our new home in Cork.” Yours with fond and lasting memories, Tom and Hazel Sherlock.

MS. A. KENNEDY. The death has taken place of Alice Kennedy, Skehana Bridge. A great and caring neighbour her softly spoken manner endeared her to all. She will be fondly remembered in the community for her kindness and generosity. Predeceased by her brother Mick some 10 years ago after which Alice made the lovely touching comment “The dearest and nearest must part”. The Kennedy family donated the site for Firoda N.S. almost fifty years ago and subsequently made a parcel of land available to the school for sport. Their contribution to education in the locality was immense and it was only fitting to see pupils and teachers of Firoda N.S. form a guard of honour as Alice’s remains made its final journey to the church. She was laid to rest in the Parish Cemetery after Requiem Mass celebrated in the Church of the Immaculate Conception by Msgr. Michael Ryan P.P. Castlecomer assisted by Fr. Joe Campion C.C. Castlecomer. She is survived by her nephews, nieces other relatives and a large circle of friends. Date of this item added : 2011-

From the Castlecomer Forum local news The tragic death of Francis Shortall, Hillside View has come as a tremendous shock to all in the community. At just a mere 36 years of age he had so much to live for sadly he went to his eternal reward long before his time. His passing leaves a plethora of questions but unfortunately no answers. A past pupil of Castlecomer Community School he worked in the sales Departments of Ormonde Brick and Roadstone before deciding on a change of career and qualifying as an electrician. The silence from the huge crowds who attended the obsequies reflected the solidarity towards the family and the deep sense of loss. He was laid to rest in Crosshill Cemetery after Requiem Mass celebrated in the Church of the Immaculate Conception by Fr. Joe Campion C.C. Castlecomer assisted by Msgr. Michael Ryan P.P. Castlecomer ; Fr. Liam Shore P.E. Castlecomer. He is survived by his father Richard ; mother Ellen ; brothers Michael, Patrick ; sisters Linda (Skeoghvosteen), Claire, Sarah ; grandmother Bridie ; other relatives and a host of friends. Date of this item added : 2011-10-18

MS. JO KELLY. >From the Castlecomer Forum local news Kilkenny Street has lost one of its more senior and respected people with the death of Jo Kelly at Archersrath Nursing Home. The matron of Archersrath Anna Maher and staff were so kind to Jo during her time there ensuring her happiness to the very end. She devoted her entire working life to the nob le profession of teaching at the Presentation Convent Primary School where she also served as Vice-Principal. A life long member of the Golf Club she was the life and soul of many a party and she was honoured as Lady Captain in the 60’s. Described by many as Comer’s answer to Maureen Potter she had audiences in stitches with her humour and wit on stage in numerous Deenside Players Panromimes. Always kind forever sincere and extremely generous which was mirrored by her involvement with several voluntary organizations which included Castlecomer Development Association, St. Vincent de Paul, I.C.A. , Parish Bingo to name but a few. She nurtured the formative careers of hundreds of pupils from the area including this correspondent and for that wonderful education we are all most grateful. Members of the Golf Club and Deenside Players formed a guard of honour at the removal. Buriel was in the Parish Cemetery after Requiem Mass celebrated in the Church of the Immaculate Conception by Msgr. Michael Ryan P.P. Castlecomer ; assisted by Fr. Joe Campion C.C. Castlecomer ; Fr. Liam Shore P.E. Castlecomer. As the cortege made its final journey to the graveside there was a moving guard of honour comprising of pupils and staff of Castlecomer Primary School. She is survived by her nieces ; nephew ; other relatives and a large circle of friends. Date of this item added : 2011-

MS. K. FOREMAN. >From the Castlecomer Forum local news For the second time in as many weeks the town is mourning the death of a young person. At a mere 31 years of age Katie Foreman late of Marymount went to her eternal reward at Marble Crest, Kilkenny. The care and concern Katie showed for the youth of the town will forever remain her epitaph. A born leader from an early age she recognised the need for a drop in centre for disadvantaged kids and she was thrilled to acquire a premises at the rear of the shopping mall in Kilkenny street. Here she taught kids to read and write through the medium of art. When alas the centre was forced to close she cried her eyes out. Undaunted she became a Scout Leader and no doubt enjoyed the mountaineering with the beavers. Later she founded Castlecomer Youth Club and became involved with Ossory Youth in the Community Hall. The next and final stage of her involvement with the young people was with Foroige. She took a shine to Special Needs Children and her dearest wish was to have a stand alone centre for the group in the town. Katie had an obsession for Starwars and also was a dab hand at the poetry. Following on a family line in dressmaking no doubt inspired by her grandmother Mary Hughes she designed the logo for Castlecomer Male Voice Choir, those famous jackets are synonymous internationally. Foroige members turned out in great numbers to accompany the cortege on its final journey to the church. She was laid to rest in Crosshill Cemetery after Requiem Mass celebrated in the Church of the Immaculate Conception by Fr. Joe Campion C.C. Castlecomer assisted by Msgr. Michael Ryan P.P. Castlecomer ; Fr. Brian Flynn P.P. Kilmacow ; Fr. Liam Shore P.E. Castlecomer. She is survived by her father David ; mother Noreen ; sister Kerry ; brother in law Mick ; other relatives and a large circle of friends. Date of this item added : 2011-10-18

MR. M. KELLY. The death has taken place at the District Hospital of Martin Kelly, Kilkenny Road. Martin Kelly was born in 1949 to Martin and Mary Kelly, Old Road, Moneenroe. Even then he made the headlines as he weighed 15 lbs. After leaving school he like so many took up employment in the Mines and from there to Comer International Textiles Factory, before finishing in the Forestry. He loved all sport and was a keen supporter of Liverpool F.C. He also played racket ball and held County medals for handball, however his passion was the game of hurling. Even though he was born in Kilkenny he was a loyal supporter of Tipperary, the birth place of his father. He was laid to rest in his beloved Tipperary jersey appropriately signed by the team also a signed hurley and a flag. Ger “Chubby” Brennan, a former workmate gave a wonderful and moving eulogy. To the strains of Slieve na mBan and accompanied by a guard of honour comprising of former work colleagues, miners and Railyard GAA the cortege made its final journey to the Parish Cemetery. There is no doubt that Martin would have had a wry smile judging by the numbers and characters who joined in the singing of the Tipperary National Anthem. The Requiem Mass was celebrated in the Church of the Immaculate Conception by Msgr. Michael Ryan P.P. Castlecomer assisted by Fr. Liam Shore P.E. Castlecomer. He is survived by Julia ; daughters Valerie, Nicola ; son Johnny ; grandchildren ; friend and companion Sheila ; sisters Betty, Bridget, Theresa ; brother Mike (Birmingham) who was unable to travel due to illness ; other relatives and a wide circle of friends. From the Castlecomer Forum local news

I find this very interesting. My Boyles emigrated from the Castlecomer area to the Niagara Falls area of Canada, pre 1850. I was up there this summer and found the Boyles were also part of the Orange Lodge. They also fought against the Irish Fenian raids. They were Welseyan Methodists so this is not such a surprise. It sounds like the problems your ancestors had re the Orange Lodge > began when they emigrated from Castlecomer to Canada. So i think you might > get > better results with your question by researching the Ontario area. > Rootsweb probably has at least one and possibly several mailing lists on > Ontario, > possibly even one on Mulmur Township. Historical newspapers shouldn't be > overlooked, and of course there's always search engines to explore, > especially since your ancestors were very active on the town council. What > were > their surnames, perhaps someone on the list may be familiar with them. Let > us > know how you make out. > -- Pat Connors, Sacramento CA http://www.connorsgenealogy.com

Hi Anne, It sounds like the problems your ancestors had re the Orange Lodge began when they emigrated from Castlecomer to Canada. So i think you might get better results with your question by researching the Ontario area. Rootsweb probably has at least one and possibly several mailing lists on Ontario, possibly even one on Mulmur Township. Historical newspapers shouldn't be overlooked, and of course there's always search engines to explore, especially since your ancestors were very active on the town council. What were their surnames, perhaps someone on the list may be familiar with them. Let us know how you make out. Jack Langton

The death has occurred of Bridget Ellen Brennan, (née Crennan) of Loon Castlecomer, Kilkenny In her 94th year deeply regretted by her loving sons, daughters, sister Julia, daughters-in-law, grandchildren, great-grandchildren, nephews,nieces, sister-in-law, relatives, neighbors and friends R.I.P. Reposing at her residence. Removal on Monday evening following prayers at 6:30 p.m. to St. Patrick's Church Clogh. Requiem mass at 11 a.m. (Tuesday), internment immediately afterwards in the adjoining cemetery. "May she rest in peace" Date published: Sunday, September 25, 2011 Date of death: Saturday, September 24, 2011

My cynical alter ego keeps telling me (without a shred of evidence) that Ancestry had a certain amount of parish records on hand, and decided to put what they had on line, for a fee, when they heard what the NLI was up to, that is to say free access. It looks like, if Ancestry wins, we will have to pony up for a World Deluxe membership, and still have the frustration of their search engine, where you have to input 95% of the information in order to get a valid result. Roll on, NLI! Perfidious Albion is at it again! I am available to sign any number of petitions. Jack Langton

Now I realize why I spent hours in fruitless search yesterday, thanks to Jack. My results were heavily Meath, now I know why. But when I go back to Ancestry and click on “About this source,” I don’t get the explanation (below) that you did, Jack. Ancestry must have a different explanation depending on which page one links from. Who knows? I find searching that site exasperating. Never narrows the searches down to a manageable degree and throws in too many red herrings. I’ve been following the copyright issue between NLI and Ancestry over the records. I hope one day we can get our Comer records online for free. Think of the searches we could do and the connections between families we could make! Deb Deborah Large Fox Help! The Faerie Folk Hid My Ancestors! http://irishfamilyresearch.blogspot.com >Jack wrote >>In any case, based on your e-mail I did check it out, just to see what source information Ancestry has, Under their "About this record base" they say that these are "selected records", and that 40% of the total results are from Meath and 15% from Roscommon

Hi Deb, I don't have a Deluxe World subscription to Ancestry, so I hadn't even checked the new records of the parishes. Also, there's been a flap about the National Library of Ireland putting lots of time and money into acquiring the records, to be released free of charge, and then finding that they are being released for a price by Ancestry. I hear they're (the NLI) appealing to the Irish government. In any case, based on your e-mail I did check it out, just to see what source information Ancestry has, Under their "About this record base" they say that these are "selected records", and that 40% of the total results are from Meath and 15% from Roscommon, (hardly giant counties, eh?) Seems to be a lot of shenanigans going on. So many of us have been waiting for these parish records for a long time, I hope it all doesn't wind up in a big hodge-podge. Let me know if you hear anything. Or maybe a fellow lister has heard something and will kindly clue us in. Jack Langton