The Last time I was on vacation, Jack was in Danbury, Ct. visiting one of his off-spring. I am in Danbury, traveling again, and I haven't seen him, but I would not be surprised if he wasn't in town. Hey Jack - you better respond before people get the idea you are hiding in Danbury with me. I assume herself is with him......... Liz in Connecticut, normally in Florida ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.

Greetings all. I have been biding my time reading all the responses to the initial query by Carlene as to the meaning of the terms "Black Irish" and "Lace Curtain Irish." Thanks to all who contributed. You can see all the posts, abbreviated, below. A couple of observations. And please, take this as instructional, not as criticism. I find it interesting that nobody had any information on their computers that had facts relating to the questions. Most responses were just "recollections." I find it interesting that on a list where "research" is the name of the game, nobody consulted Google, Yahoo, the Kerry List web pages or any of the other common sources where answers might be found. Maybe the computer has made us all too lazy. I am regularly shocked when I read something that gives the answer to something that I had wondered about when I found out how easy the answer was to find with a simple search. Many of us older genealogists started out where library research, notebooks, copy machines, microfilm copies, and lots of annotations and scraps of paper were the name of the game. I bought my first computer because I got tired of constantly re-typing family trees as dates, names and numbers and order of children regularly changed. Those were the times when lists like our wonderful Kerry List were full of requests for information, responses, regular Roll Call requests where dozens would participate, resulting in hundreds of messages each month. These days we tolerate "off topic" subjects that would have generated "Flame Wars" in previous years just as a reminder to all that the list still exists. Irish Genealogy is difficult. Most people don't even know the County where their ancestors came from. We are blessed in that we know it is Kerry and I was particularly blessed that two great aunts knew where their father (my ggf, Jeremiah Reidy) was born in 1841. That is the exception, not the rule. But most of us, myself included, are probably at dead ends. One of the reasons that I like to allow "cultural" items to be discussed on the list is that I know that my ancestors are more than "born 1841, emigrated 1872." As we are, they were a product of their times. And that particular time encompassed the Potato Famine, the beginning of the Catholic emigration, the Young Ireland Rebellion of 1848-9 which actually was an All-Europe Revolution, the beginning of the National School System, the Fenian Rebellion and a lot of other parts of Irish History that my ggf experienced. So when I am "stuck", I try to do several things to keep moving. 1. Search on different lines 2. Study Irish History and Culture 3. Place my information in as many places as I can find where it might be possible for my relatives to find me when I don't even know they exits. And last month, for the first time in my County Kerry experience, a Kerry relative, Gerard Murphy, a third cousin, twice removed, on my Reidy side, descended from my ggf's younger sister, Catherine Reidy, contacted me. "Ger" lives in Cork City, is young enough to be a grandson, has a computer and is beginning to become infatuated with genealogy. He found me by just using a search engine for "Meenleitrim" and "Reidy." He has his line traced down through the 20th century and has passed on photographs and census information from 1911. I have done likewise. It is nice to have a partner now in Ireland who is interested in MY family. Back to Carlene's Query. Google has 118,000 hits on "Black Irish." You can't go wrong STARTING with Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Irish It deals with the Spanish Armada question and genetics. In my computer files, I have an article "The Myth of the Black Irish: Spanish syntagonism and prethetical salvation", by TP Kunesh. Excellent! There are 707 hits for "Lace Curtain Irish." There are 9,000 hits for "Shanty Irish." There are 9,000 hits for "Bog Irish." There are 11,000 hits for "Bog Trotter." There are 18,000 hits for "Plastic Paddy." [I had never heard of that one before Fintan's mention.] There are almost 56,000 hits for "narrow back." [Where is that spoken; and it isn't nice!] I only found five hits for "Two Boater" and "Ireland." "Hoity Toity" doesn't seem to have Irish connections. Using the list to ask questions like Carlene's is better than "not using the list." But if you expect to find your ancestors, and more importantly, facts about them besides names and dates, be prepared to do your own research. And please share it with your pals on the wonderful Kerry List!!!!! Ray Marshall In more Spring-like Minneapolis, the fisherpersons all back in town, all with their limits this year. Now get out there and find those darned ancestors!!! May 13, 2007 Since the list is so quiet, I have a question that may get some "chatter" started. Could someone please explain to me what is meant by Black Irish and Lace Curtain Irish. I have absolutely no idea about those two expressions and hope I am not asking a "touchy" question. If this is a touchy question, maybe someone could e-mail me direct. Carlene Carlene Worthy [cw736@wideopenwest.com] Carlene, I can only tell you what my grandmother used to say. Lace curtain Irish were "those people puttin' on airs, don't you know." But my mother said they were people who were trying to put on the best "face" that they could, such as hanging lace curtains in a poor home. As for Black Irish, I've heard different things but mostly just Irish with "that Spanish Armada look to them." Monica MonicaBOS@aol.com re 'Black Irish' my Mum used to say that these people had some Spanish blood in them. She, her sister and one brother plus both parents had the grey eyes reddish hair that so many Irish have, but her other brother was very olive-skinned with black hair, eyes and a very ginger moustache. At school, we were taught that, after the Armada was scattered, some of them sailed further north around the top end of Scotland and down the west coast of Ireland trying to get back to Spain. Some were shipwrecked and washed ashore in Ireland. I have always thought this was a logical explanation but, if anyone likes to differ, please feel free. Regards Irene R Irene R ivrbjr@netspace.net.au My grandmother who was born in Kerry (Caherciveen) in 1876 also told us the tale of the shipwrecked sailors from the Spanish Armada. Two of her daughters,(my mother and one of her sisters) had the blackest of black hair, olive skin, and green eyes. My sister looked so "Latin" as a child that on returning on a holiday trip from Mexico back to Texas, my parents were accused (perhaps jokingly) of having kidnapped her). On the other hand, a few years ago I read several articles completely debunking what scholars who have researched it have termed as a myth with no foundation. Those articles could probably be found by entering the phrase "black Irish" on Google. They said, as well as I remember, that all the shipwrecked sailors either died or were murdered before having any chance to intermarry with the locals. But I still believe my grandmother. Julie Hu Julie Hu [mcelroy22000@yahoo.com] Hi, heard all sorts of theories for this including original settlers in Ireland originally migrated from Asia settling in europe,ireland and britain. Also trade links with North Africa, Portugal and Spain. The was a theory raised a few years ago that some Irish words have some links with arabic languages. Gallecia in northern spain is one of the 'celtic' countries and pipes are played there which have simularites to uileann pipes in ireland. Regards, Fintan http://www.myirishancestry.com Fintan Sheehan [fintansheehan@yahoo.ie] When I lived in London the term 'plastic paddy' was a term used by Irish people to describe people born in UK with irish roots. It was usually done in jest especially if they started boring us with history etc Regards, Fintan http://www.myirishancestry.com Fintan Sheehan [fintansheehan@yahoo.ie] "Bog Irish" was an expression that was used in our family too, usually meaning that those so described had little or no upbringing, were ill mannered, and were to be avoided and not imitated. Ann Ann W [annw659@cableone.net] Thanks to all who answered my questions. A special thanks to Pat who sent me the above link. Very surprised that there was no input from Jack or Ray. They must be getting their garden's ready. Carlene Carlene Worthy [cw736@wideopenwest.com] I grew up being told we were black Irish, because the Armada survivors mixed with the native Irish. A few years ago I did a little research and found that at least in the Dingle area, the few Armada survivors were executed--so much for that theory. Looking at the few old family photos I have, my Sullivans, Cavanaughs, O'Donnells, Brosnahans, Murphys, were fair & mostly blue-eyed. My Doyles & Toomeys (Toomeys were from Cork) were very dark in hair & eyes, which my mother & I inherited. Suzanne s_bubnash@juno.com As a genuine Plastic ( or rather East Irish ) the term " Black Irish " is very appropriate to all our Cork family - especially my eldest brother Desmond, who could pass for a bona fide Afghan any day. But rather than the Armada, I have been told that there are two views on this according to current thinking; 1. These are the original indigenous inhabitants of Britain, blue eyes, black hair etc. etc. The hunter gatherers, first farmers. 2. That there was much trading with people sailing from North Africa and Iberia, with the usual consequences....... And " lace curtain Irish " was always used as a put-down by my mother, who certainly was an expert! Slan, Mary Mary Simpson [mary@msimpson.demon.co.uk] How about narrow-back? That was one of Bridie's (my Mom)favorites. PSMaureen@aol.com My Mum's family was also from Kerry, Ardfert area. I'm afraid I can't believe, either, that there were 100% fatalities amongst the Spanish sailors We don't get that result even now for enemy deaths during war time with modern weapons. There didn't have to be many left alive to leave some sort of heritage after nearly four hundred and fifty years. Regards Irene R on the Gold Coast Irene R [ivrbjr@netspace.net.au] I agree. If those Irish girls had any sense at all, they hid those handsome, dark haired Spaniards. Joan Griffin Rusk Joan Rusk [jgrnlr@cableone.net] wouldn't DNA testing answer this? Sue Susan Tait Porcaro [suetaitporcaro@comcast.net] The story I read is that the Spanish would come on trips to Ireland and kidnap people as workers. So perhaps those people at some time managed to return with their family's. Trish Trish Jensen [trishj@tpg.com.au] Is "hoity-toity" an Irish expression or just an old-fashioned word once used in the U.S. In my mind I can still hear my Irish grandmother using it of someone she considered snobbish: "She's very hoity-toity!" Julie Hu Julie Hu [mcelroy22000@yahoo.com] I first came across "hoity-toity" in an (American)schoolbook named "Friendly Village" in which, as I recall, a couple from the U. S. visited various countries, including their homelands. "Hoity-toity" was a phrase used by the English half of the couple (the other was from Brittany). It made such an impression that I still use it occasionally. Ann Ann O'Hara [yannster@ptd.net] Well now that you have said that I remember my Mum always said Hoity toity also It was her grandmother and father that were her closest Irish family. These saying's pass down Did any one ever hear, " Pigs might fly" if some thing was said and no one believed it they would say , And pigs might fly trish in Sydney Trish Jensen [trishj@tpg.com.au] Another expression for immigrant Irish around Boston was "two-boater". If you had the cash for a ticket to NY or Boston, you were pretty well off: you were a one-boater.. If you were poor as dirt, or your landlord was trying to get rid of you, you got a ticket as far as St. John's, Newfoundland, then worked on the fishing boats till you had money for the fare to Boston or NYC: you were a two-boater. It was a badge of honor to have had the gumption to be a two-boater. Jack John E. Mansfield [JMANSFIE@DNFSB.GOV]