Hi all My Mom always said she was a narrowback, because she was 1st generation here in the US. Lace Curtain in Newark NJ meant you got money moved up the hill and put up curtains (or airs) Peggyjayne NJ Researching Trant and Fitzgerald in Kerry ____________________________________ ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.

************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.

In a message dated 5/15/2007 3:36:22 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, raymarsh@mninter.net writes: I'll kindly ask the list to refrain from using the word "senior" during the next 12 days. It will be a time of mourning for me. Ray Flooded with Medicare junk mail in Minneapolis I prefer the word "experienced" myself! Noreen in NY - aging rapidly! ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.

Hi List, i am going to write a letter to some BURNS in Kerry (from phone book) asking for info on my g grandmother ELLEN BURNS. I had luck writing to germany, now i thought I would try Ireland. Can anyone give me advise on what to write? also how much postage? Thank you for any help. Lorri searching- ALLEN-BARNETT-CARROLL-BURNS GEIGER-Veach -GEARIN-KANE-SMITH-MOYLAN DONAHUE

I'll kindly ask the list to refrain from using the word "senior" during the next 12 days. It will be a time of mourning for me. Ray Flooded with Medicare junk mail in Minneapolis -----Original Message----- From: irl-kerry-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:irl-kerry-bounces@rootsweb.com]On Behalf Of Noreen910@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2007 1:33 PM To: cw736@wideopenwest.com; irl-kerry@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [IRL-KERRY] IRISH EXPRESSIONS Good for you Carlene! Sometimes the 'seniors' on our list need to be shaken up a bit! Of course we could've looked it up, but that would cut out all the fun of remembering mothers and grandmothers using the word while shaking their heads in sad disapproval. Besides, now at least I know I wasn't the only one wondering if I'd been cut from the list. Noreen in NY ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRL-KERRY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.467 / Virus Database: 269.7.0/804 - Release Date: 5/14/2007 4:46 PM

Good for you Carlene! Sometimes the 'seniors' on our list need to be shaken up a bit! Of course we could've looked it up, but that would cut out all the fun of remembering mothers and grandmothers using the word while shaking their heads in sad disapproval. Besides, now at least I know I wasn't the only one wondering if I'd been cut from the list. Noreen in NY ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.

Well now that you have said that I remember my Mum always said Hoity toity also It was her grandmother and father that were her closest Irish family. These saying's pass down Did any one ever hear, " Pigs might fly" if some thing was said and no one believed it they would say , And pigs might fly trish in Sydney Subject: [IRL-KERRY] Hoity-toity Is "hoity-toity" an Irish expression or just an old-fashioned word once used in the U.S. In my mind I can still hear my Irish grandmother using it of someone she considered snobbish: "She's very hoity-toity!" Julie Hu ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRL-KERRY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.467 / Virus Database: 269.7.0/804 - Release Date: 14/05/2007 4:46 PM

Ray: If I had Googled it (which I did) the list would still be "quiet". It finally did get some response from you and Jack. I finally got you back to the computer and adding your "intellectual fellowship" to the list. Carlene Who is starting to believe that her O'Meara clan swan across the great pond to Pa.

You're absolutely right, Monica. Dry academic research without the seasoning with personal memories and experience gets pretty boring. Ray -----Original Message----- From: irl-kerry-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:irl-kerry-bounces@rootsweb.com]On Behalf Of MonicaBOS@aol.com Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2007 10:01 AM To: irl-kerry@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [IRL-KERRY] IRISH EXPRESSIONS Hi Ray. That is a point well made and well taken. After my initial response to Carlene, I did indeed Google, Wiki, etc., the expressions. It was very interesting from a historical standpoint. But I could not help but continue to respond with remembrances of my relatives (mainly my mother and my grandmother) because I was then able to "see" them in my mind's eye (now there's an expression) as they actually used these expressions. What has been most interesting to me, is to see first; where these expressions started with their original meanings, and second; how these expressions have evolved. Even from country to country. That is the beauty to this particular list. It also has been nice to just hear from everyone after all of that damn quiet! Back to my research.................. Monica ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRL-KERRY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.467 / Virus Database: 269.7.0/804 - Release Date: 5/14/2007 4:46 PM

Well, that was worth waiting for, wasn't it? Actually one of the reason that Jack and I have not been so active is that we have become addicted to "Stork Watching" at a remote site in Poland. http://bocian.polska.pl/transmisja2.htm Click on "transmisia na zywo" That'll quiet the list down! Ray In overcast, Minneapolis, where the fisherpersons came back to town with full stringers. -----Original Message----- From: John L. Sweeney [mailto:sweelab@enter.net] Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2007 9:55 AM To: Ray Marshall; Kerry List Subject: [IRL-KERRY] IRISH EXPRESSIONS Good Morning Kerry Folk [wherever you are]: I read all of Ray Marshall's composition and picked up on the 'Kerry List Archives' matter and accessed some of the postings from some years back. The "narrow-back" topic had been debated ca. 2000 - 2003 and I went looking for the explanation I though most apt. Well I didn't find it. But, I got myself interested in some of the "off topic" business of some time ago and decided to re-post a particular item that had me engrossed then and now. From: "John L. Sweeney" < sweelab@enter.net> Subject: [KER] beating a dead horse Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 19:38:38 -0400 Dear Kerry List people: "Where did you get that bit of history", etc. has been asked me. "Beating a dead horse", history of its origins recorded. My Uncle Paddy's granduncle [his grandfather's older brother] Phil O'Connell, from Meen, Co. Kerry ran a trading post at what is now Spirit River in Alberta. He had a going business trading Irish Whiskey from Cork and Pocheen from Kerry to the locals [Russian trappers and Indians] for whatever goods they brought in. He would have 2 large shipments of Irish whiskey & Pocheen picked up at Prince Rupert, British Columbia in June and September that had come there originally on sailing ships from Cork and Fenit via San Francisco. He was [unlike Paddy] reported to be well liked and respected by the locals. He never distilled his own booze primarily because he was afraid of fire and that was a necessity to distill anything, no potatoes grew in the forests and Phil was basically a lazy man [like Paddy] anyway. When the Gendarmerie royal du Canada drove the "Whiskey Boys" out of what is now Alberta and nearby provinces and took over their booze business, Phil stayed "in trade" and it grew over another 20+ years. The locals didn't like The Crown's product which didn't include Vodka nor the price they had to pay for it that included alot of duty or taxes. Phil named his place "Spirit River" because the Indians respected anything to do with "Spirits", his trading post was on a river and its biggest seller was "spirits". Phil told the Russians that "Pocheen" was Gaelic for Vodka and it tasted the same anyway [still does]. Easy access via canoe suited the locals. Word of his lower prices and the superiority of "Phil's spirits" [alternatively "fire water" or "waadkaa"] spread N.S.E. & W. and for about 4 month's a year he did very well. The other 8 months of the year, he and nothing else could move anyway, everything was frozen and covered with snow and this suited Phil too [being rather lazy]. Eventually Phil joined the real spirits, had fathered 17 children, out-lived 3 wives and drunk about 10% of his own product every year. Phil [like Uncle Paddy] loved Irish whiskey, especially over 8 months of the years between 1865 and 1894 [didn't like Pocheen except as a fuel for the many lanterns in the post]-(Phil's eyesight needed alot of light). Uncle Paddy said he was very fond of his grandfather [he died before Paddy was born, so figure that], never knew his grandfather's brothers [some were still living] but they didn't think much of Paddy [nor did anyone else]. For some reason Uncle Paddy was left [by his grandfather] with Phil's old annual letters to his Kerry family. Paddy had read them over and over from childhood and knew them "by heart". By the time I heard about Phil his letters had practically turned to dust so it was a good thing that Paddy had read them many times. It was at his leg's length, as a child, I'd heard Phil's account of the goings on in that part of the world, at that time [Paddy had kicked out at me on a few occasions and I made sure to keep away from him but I loved to listen to his stories]. The minutes of the Tribal Meeting prior to the treaty were related verbally by many sources [none Russian though] who had stopped by Phil's trading post to do business. Phil had written his people "home" about his life and those times in NW Canada. So, that's how I initially learned about the origin of the expression "beating a dead horse", from Uncle Paddy. Love, Jack Sweeney, exhausted in Palmer, Pennsylvania. -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.467 / Virus Database: 269.7.0/804 - Release Date: 5/14/2007 4:46 PM

Hi Ray. That is a point well made and well taken. After my initial response to Carlene, I did indeed Google, Wiki, etc., the expressions. It was very interesting from a historical standpoint. But I could not help but continue to respond with remembrances of my relatives (mainly my mother and my grandmother) because I was then able to "see" them in my mind's eye (now there's an expression) as they actually used these expressions. What has been most interesting to me, is to see first; where these expressions started with their original meanings, and second; how these expressions have evolved. Even from country to country. That is the beauty to this particular list. It also has been nice to just hear from everyone after all of that damn quiet! Back to my research.................. Monica ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.

Good Morning Kerry Folk [wherever you are]: I read all of Ray Marshall's composition and picked up on the 'Kerry List Archives' matter and accessed some of the postings from some years back. The "narrow-back" topic had been debated ca. 2000 - 2003 and I went looking for the explanation I though most apt. Well I didn't find it. But, I got myself interested in some of the "off topic" business of some time ago and decided to re-post a particular item that had me engrossed then and now. From: "John L. Sweeney" < sweelab@enter.net> Subject: [KER] beating a dead horse Date: Mon, 9 Sep 2002 19:38:38 -0400 Dear Kerry List people: "Where did you get that bit of history", etc. has been asked me. "Beating a dead horse", history of its origins recorded. My Uncle Paddy's granduncle [his grandfather's older brother] Phil O'Connell, from Meen, Co. Kerry ran a trading post at what is now Spirit River in Alberta. He had a going business trading Irish Whiskey from Cork and Pocheen from Kerry to the locals [Russian trappers and Indians] for whatever goods they brought in. He would have 2 large shipments of Irish whiskey & Pocheen picked up at Prince Rupert, British Columbia in June and September that had come there originally on sailing ships from Cork and Fenit via San Francisco. He was [unlike Paddy] reported to be well liked and respected by the locals. He never distilled his own booze primarily because he was afraid of fire and that was a necessity to distill anything, no potatoes grew in the forests and Phil was basically a lazy man [like Paddy] anyway. When the Gendarmerie royal du Canada drove the "Whiskey Boys" out of what is now Alberta and nearby provinces and took over their booze business, Phil stayed "in trade" and it grew over another 20+ years. The locals didn't like The Crown's product which didn't include Vodka nor the price they had to pay for it that included alot of duty or taxes. Phil named his place "Spirit River" because the Indians respected anything to do with "Spirits", his trading post was on a river and its biggest seller was "spirits". Phil told the Russians that "Pocheen" was Gaelic for Vodka and it tasted the same anyway [still does]. Easy access via canoe suited the locals. Word of his lower prices and the superiority of "Phil's spirits" [alternatively "fire water" or "waadkaa"] spread N.S.E. & W. and for about 4 month's a year he did very well. The other 8 months of the year, he and nothing else could move anyway, everything was frozen and covered with snow and this suited Phil too [being rather lazy]. Eventually Phil joined the real spirits, had fathered 17 children, out-lived 3 wives and drunk about 10% of his own product every year. Phil [like Uncle Paddy] loved Irish whiskey, especially over 8 months of the years between 1865 and 1894 [didn't like Pocheen except as a fuel for the many lanterns in the post]-(Phil's eyesight needed alot of light). Uncle Paddy said he was very fond of his grandfather [he died before Paddy was born, so figure that], never knew his grandfather's brothers [some were still living] but they didn't think much of Paddy [nor did anyone else]. For some reason Uncle Paddy was left [by his grandfather] with Phil's old annual letters to his Kerry family. Paddy had read them over and over from childhood and knew them "by heart". By the time I heard about Phil his letters had practically turned to dust so it was a good thing that Paddy had read them many times. It was at his leg's length, as a child, I'd heard Phil's account of the goings on in that part of the world, at that time [Paddy had kicked out at me on a few occasions and I made sure to keep away from him but I loved to listen to his stories]. The minutes of the Tribal Meeting prior to the treaty were related verbally by many sources [none Russian though] who had stopped by Phil's trading post to do business. Phil had written his people "home" about his life and those times in NW Canada. So, that's how I initially learned about the origin of the expression "beating a dead horse", from Uncle Paddy. Love, Jack Sweeney, exhausted in Palmer, Pennsylvania.

Wow! Priceless. Joan Griffin Rusk -

> I was able to find out the location in Kerry!!! > > When I wrote to the Irish Genealogy for a location search for my gr-gr-grandfater [John Kissane) who I knew to be from County Kerry. They were unable to find him but found another missing sibling that I wasn't aware of, Margaret b. 11 February 1871. > Registry District of Tarbet No. 1 County Kerry > 11 February 1871 in Dooncaha, > Margaret of John Kissane, a labourer and Mary Mohony. > > She goes on to say that since this is probably the place where John [my gr-gr-grandfather] was also born, it is highly probable that he was baptised there. Dooncaha is located in the civil parish of Kilnaughten, Catholic parish of Tarbet. She goes on to say that as the parish records are being indexed, that I might write the parish priest in Tarbet and ask him to check for John's baptism. She gave me: Very Rev. Maurice Brick PP, St. Mary's parish, Tarbet, Co, Kerry. Just wondering what type of monetary offering would be deemed appropriate and generous for my favor. > > Quite fascinating, isn't it!!! > > Unrelated to Kerry but information showing what type of tidbits can be found on death certificates. > Certificate of Death: [gr-grandfather] > John H. Kissane > Place of Death: Saginaw, Jonesfield > Date of Birth: February 2, 1864 > Date of Death: January 25, 1956 aged 91 > Fathers Name: John Kissane > Mother's Name: Mary Mahoney > Informant's Name: Mrs. Veronica Teall - Merrill > Disease or Condition: Arteriosertic Heart Disease, Congestive Heart Failure, Congestion of Liver > Date of Burial: 1-28-56, Cementary Name: Sacred Heart, Michigan > > John's wife - my gr-grandmother > Elizabeth Kissane. This one is hand-written and is kind of hard to read. > Her occupation at death: housewife > Her birthplace was: Canada > Her Father's name: John McNamara, Ireland is his birth place > Her Mother's name: Elen Linar, born in New York > Her cause of death: tuberculosis of the lungs > Date of death: Feb 8, 1922 > She is buried at Lakefield Cemetery, Michigan > > I even have their marriage certificate: John Kissane, age 38 and Lizzie McNamara age 29. It says John's residence Lakefield MI and hers was Jonesfield MI > They were married on November 29, 1905 in Hemlock MI by John E. Troy > > Marissa Kissane-Huntley > >

Hi every one, I now have another clue re my Connors and Teahans below. Where in Kerry is this town Is it closer to Tralee than Killarney ? O'Connors and Teahans from Ballfinnane and Currow,son Maurice went to New Zealand also Cournane and Bowler from Cahersiveen ,daughter Mary Frances married Maurice in NZ 1881

And I can still hear my mother saying hoity-toity. But my grandmother would say it in connection with lace curtain Irish. Monica ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.

The story I read is that the Spanish would come on trips to Ireland and kidnap people as workers. So perhaps those people at some time managed to return with their family's. Trish O'Connors and Teahans from Ballfinnane and Currow,son Maurice went to New Zealand also Cournane and Bowler from Cahersiveen ,daughter Mary Frances married Maurice in NZ 1881

Hi all As a tall dark haired 100% irishman I looked into this at one time. Most geneticists that I have read believe that any survivors would have had little if any impact on the gene pool. THe way I look at it, us dark haired ones are from the Fir Bolg. who really knows for sure. if you are that curious you should see the pretty recent genetic reports about the Irish and the celts. It may surprise you. always a pleasure to hear about the "Black Irish" Bart > From: jgrnlr@cableone.net> To: ivrbjr@netspace.net.au; IRL-KERRY@rootsweb.com> Date: Mon, 14 May 2007 15:31:10 -0700> Subject: Re: [IRL-KERRY] Black Irish> > Irene,> > I agree. If those Irish girls had any sense at all, they hid those handsome,> dark haired Spaniards.> > Joan Griffin Rusk> > > Hi Julie> > My Mum's family was also from Kerry, Ardfert area. I'm afraid I can't> believe, either, that there were 100% fatalities amongst the Spanish sailors> We don't get that result even now for enemy deaths during war time with> modern weapons. There didn't have to be many left alive to leave some sort> of heritage after nearly four hundred and fifty years.> > Regards> > Irene R on the Gold Coast> > > --> Checked by AVG Free Edition.> Version: 7.5.467 / Virus Database: 269.7.0/803 - Release Date: 5/13/07 12:17> PM> > > -------------------------------> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to> IRL-KERRY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the> quotes in the subject and the body of the message> > > -------------------------------> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRL-KERRY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message _________________________________________________________________ Change is good. See what’s different about Windows Live Hotmail. http://www.windowslive-hotmail.com/learnmore/default.html?locale=en-us&ocid=RMT_TAGLM_HMWL_reten_changegood_0507

Greetings all. I have been biding my time reading all the responses to the initial query by Carlene as to the meaning of the terms "Black Irish" and "Lace Curtain Irish." Thanks to all who contributed. You can see all the posts, abbreviated, below. A couple of observations. And please, take this as instructional, not as criticism. I find it interesting that nobody had any information on their computers that had facts relating to the questions. Most responses were just "recollections." I find it interesting that on a list where "research" is the name of the game, nobody consulted Google, Yahoo, the Kerry List web pages or any of the other common sources where answers might be found. Maybe the computer has made us all too lazy. I am regularly shocked when I read something that gives the answer to something that I had wondered about when I found out how easy the answer was to find with a simple search. Many of us older genealogists started out where library research, notebooks, copy machines, microfilm copies, and lots of annotations and scraps of paper were the name of the game. I bought my first computer because I got tired of constantly re-typing family trees as dates, names and numbers and order of children regularly changed. Those were the times when lists like our wonderful Kerry List were full of requests for information, responses, regular Roll Call requests where dozens would participate, resulting in hundreds of messages each month. These days we tolerate "off topic" subjects that would have generated "Flame Wars" in previous years just as a reminder to all that the list still exists. Irish Genealogy is difficult. Most people don't even know the County where their ancestors came from. We are blessed in that we know it is Kerry and I was particularly blessed that two great aunts knew where their father (my ggf, Jeremiah Reidy) was born in 1841. That is the exception, not the rule. But most of us, myself included, are probably at dead ends. One of the reasons that I like to allow "cultural" items to be discussed on the list is that I know that my ancestors are more than "born 1841, emigrated 1872." As we are, they were a product of their times. And that particular time encompassed the Potato Famine, the beginning of the Catholic emigration, the Young Ireland Rebellion of 1848-9 which actually was an All-Europe Revolution, the beginning of the National School System, the Fenian Rebellion and a lot of other parts of Irish History that my ggf experienced. So when I am "stuck", I try to do several things to keep moving. 1. Search on different lines 2. Study Irish History and Culture 3. Place my information in as many places as I can find where it might be possible for my relatives to find me when I don't even know they exits. And last month, for the first time in my County Kerry experience, a Kerry relative, Gerard Murphy, a third cousin, twice removed, on my Reidy side, descended from my ggf's younger sister, Catherine Reidy, contacted me. "Ger" lives in Cork City, is young enough to be a grandson, has a computer and is beginning to become infatuated with genealogy. He found me by just using a search engine for "Meenleitrim" and "Reidy." He has his line traced down through the 20th century and has passed on photographs and census information from 1911. I have done likewise. It is nice to have a partner now in Ireland who is interested in MY family. Back to Carlene's Query. Google has 118,000 hits on "Black Irish." You can't go wrong STARTING with Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Irish It deals with the Spanish Armada question and genetics. In my computer files, I have an article "The Myth of the Black Irish: Spanish syntagonism and prethetical salvation", by TP Kunesh. Excellent! There are 707 hits for "Lace Curtain Irish." There are 9,000 hits for "Shanty Irish." There are 9,000 hits for "Bog Irish." There are 11,000 hits for "Bog Trotter." There are 18,000 hits for "Plastic Paddy." [I had never heard of that one before Fintan's mention.] There are almost 56,000 hits for "narrow back." [Where is that spoken; and it isn't nice!] I only found five hits for "Two Boater" and "Ireland." "Hoity Toity" doesn't seem to have Irish connections. Using the list to ask questions like Carlene's is better than "not using the list." But if you expect to find your ancestors, and more importantly, facts about them besides names and dates, be prepared to do your own research. And please share it with your pals on the wonderful Kerry List!!!!! Ray Marshall In more Spring-like Minneapolis, the fisherpersons all back in town, all with their limits this year. Now get out there and find those darned ancestors!!! May 13, 2007 Since the list is so quiet, I have a question that may get some "chatter" started. Could someone please explain to me what is meant by Black Irish and Lace Curtain Irish. I have absolutely no idea about those two expressions and hope I am not asking a "touchy" question. If this is a touchy question, maybe someone could e-mail me direct. Carlene Carlene Worthy [cw736@wideopenwest.com] Carlene, I can only tell you what my grandmother used to say. Lace curtain Irish were "those people puttin' on airs, don't you know." But my mother said they were people who were trying to put on the best "face" that they could, such as hanging lace curtains in a poor home. As for Black Irish, I've heard different things but mostly just Irish with "that Spanish Armada look to them." Monica MonicaBOS@aol.com re 'Black Irish' my Mum used to say that these people had some Spanish blood in them. She, her sister and one brother plus both parents had the grey eyes reddish hair that so many Irish have, but her other brother was very olive-skinned with black hair, eyes and a very ginger moustache. At school, we were taught that, after the Armada was scattered, some of them sailed further north around the top end of Scotland and down the west coast of Ireland trying to get back to Spain. Some were shipwrecked and washed ashore in Ireland. I have always thought this was a logical explanation but, if anyone likes to differ, please feel free. Regards Irene R Irene R ivrbjr@netspace.net.au My grandmother who was born in Kerry (Caherciveen) in 1876 also told us the tale of the shipwrecked sailors from the Spanish Armada. Two of her daughters,(my mother and one of her sisters) had the blackest of black hair, olive skin, and green eyes. My sister looked so "Latin" as a child that on returning on a holiday trip from Mexico back to Texas, my parents were accused (perhaps jokingly) of having kidnapped her). On the other hand, a few years ago I read several articles completely debunking what scholars who have researched it have termed as a myth with no foundation. Those articles could probably be found by entering the phrase "black Irish" on Google. They said, as well as I remember, that all the shipwrecked sailors either died or were murdered before having any chance to intermarry with the locals. But I still believe my grandmother. Julie Hu Julie Hu [mcelroy22000@yahoo.com] Hi, heard all sorts of theories for this including original settlers in Ireland originally migrated from Asia settling in europe,ireland and britain. Also trade links with North Africa, Portugal and Spain. The was a theory raised a few years ago that some Irish words have some links with arabic languages. Gallecia in northern spain is one of the 'celtic' countries and pipes are played there which have simularites to uileann pipes in ireland. Regards, Fintan http://www.myirishancestry.com Fintan Sheehan [fintansheehan@yahoo.ie] When I lived in London the term 'plastic paddy' was a term used by Irish people to describe people born in UK with irish roots. It was usually done in jest especially if they started boring us with history etc Regards, Fintan http://www.myirishancestry.com Fintan Sheehan [fintansheehan@yahoo.ie] "Bog Irish" was an expression that was used in our family too, usually meaning that those so described had little or no upbringing, were ill mannered, and were to be avoided and not imitated. Ann Ann W [annw659@cableone.net] Thanks to all who answered my questions. A special thanks to Pat who sent me the above link. Very surprised that there was no input from Jack or Ray. They must be getting their garden's ready. Carlene Carlene Worthy [cw736@wideopenwest.com] I grew up being told we were black Irish, because the Armada survivors mixed with the native Irish. A few years ago I did a little research and found that at least in the Dingle area, the few Armada survivors were executed--so much for that theory. Looking at the few old family photos I have, my Sullivans, Cavanaughs, O'Donnells, Brosnahans, Murphys, were fair & mostly blue-eyed. My Doyles & Toomeys (Toomeys were from Cork) were very dark in hair & eyes, which my mother & I inherited. Suzanne s_bubnash@juno.com As a genuine Plastic ( or rather East Irish ) the term " Black Irish " is very appropriate to all our Cork family - especially my eldest brother Desmond, who could pass for a bona fide Afghan any day. But rather than the Armada, I have been told that there are two views on this according to current thinking; 1. These are the original indigenous inhabitants of Britain, blue eyes, black hair etc. etc. The hunter gatherers, first farmers. 2. That there was much trading with people sailing from North Africa and Iberia, with the usual consequences....... And " lace curtain Irish " was always used as a put-down by my mother, who certainly was an expert! Slan, Mary Mary Simpson [mary@msimpson.demon.co.uk] How about narrow-back? That was one of Bridie's (my Mom)favorites. PSMaureen@aol.com My Mum's family was also from Kerry, Ardfert area. I'm afraid I can't believe, either, that there were 100% fatalities amongst the Spanish sailors We don't get that result even now for enemy deaths during war time with modern weapons. There didn't have to be many left alive to leave some sort of heritage after nearly four hundred and fifty years. Regards Irene R on the Gold Coast Irene R [ivrbjr@netspace.net.au] I agree. If those Irish girls had any sense at all, they hid those handsome, dark haired Spaniards. Joan Griffin Rusk Joan Rusk [jgrnlr@cableone.net] wouldn't DNA testing answer this? Sue Susan Tait Porcaro [suetaitporcaro@comcast.net] The story I read is that the Spanish would come on trips to Ireland and kidnap people as workers. So perhaps those people at some time managed to return with their family's. Trish Trish Jensen [trishj@tpg.com.au] Is "hoity-toity" an Irish expression or just an old-fashioned word once used in the U.S. In my mind I can still hear my Irish grandmother using it of someone she considered snobbish: "She's very hoity-toity!" Julie Hu Julie Hu [mcelroy22000@yahoo.com] I first came across "hoity-toity" in an (American)schoolbook named "Friendly Village" in which, as I recall, a couple from the U. S. visited various countries, including their homelands. "Hoity-toity" was a phrase used by the English half of the couple (the other was from Brittany). It made such an impression that I still use it occasionally. Ann Ann O'Hara [yannster@ptd.net] Well now that you have said that I remember my Mum always said Hoity toity also It was her grandmother and father that were her closest Irish family. These saying's pass down Did any one ever hear, " Pigs might fly" if some thing was said and no one believed it they would say , And pigs might fly trish in Sydney Trish Jensen [trishj@tpg.com.au] Another expression for immigrant Irish around Boston was "two-boater". If you had the cash for a ticket to NY or Boston, you were pretty well off: you were a one-boater.. If you were poor as dirt, or your landlord was trying to get rid of you, you got a ticket as far as St. John's, Newfoundland, then worked on the fishing boats till you had money for the fare to Boston or NYC: you were a two-boater. It was a badge of honor to have had the gumption to be a two-boater. Jack John E. Mansfield [JMANSFIE@DNFSB.GOV]

There a townland in Keel called Ardnaban. Is this place you are referring to? Regards, Fintan http://www.myirishancestry.com ----- Original Message ---- From: Trish Jensen <trishj@tpg.com.au> To: irl-kerry@rootsweb.com Sent: Tuesday, 15 May, 2007 1:46:10 AM Subject: [IRL-KERRY] Ardabrane Hi every one, I now have another clue re my Connors and Teahans below. Where in Kerry is this town Is it closer to Tralee than Killarney ? O'Connors and Teahans from Ballfinnane and Currow,son Maurice went to New Zealand also Cournane and Bowler from Cahersiveen ,daughter Mary Frances married Maurice in NZ 1881 ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRL-KERRY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ___________________________________________________________ Yahoo! Answers - Got a question? Someone out there knows the answer. Try it now. http://uk.answers.yahoo.com/