I want to thank Michael Cronin (Cork), Cathy O'Neill (Galway)and Nancy Gray (Leitrim) for their very informative responses to my queries and theories. I am responding now to all 3 lists with Michael's, Cathy's and Nancy's comments as they are a fine genealogy course in and of themselves. Hope all of you will wade through all of this information. Michael wrote: You have done everything exactly as you should and you findings are typical of many. The next step is to access parish records, you didn't say if catholic but I am going to assume they are. I know nothing about Leitrim but the usual way to do this is through the county heritage centre, if there is one. I will cost you but it is worth it and remember to give them all the information you have, the more you give them the more they are likely to find. My Comments: Michael, my Fee family was/is Catholic. I wrote to the Leitrim Genealogy Center when I first began my research....paid the big bucks......and they found nothing on my great great great grandfather, Patrick Fee, his wife Catherine Tubman Fee nor my great great grandfather James Fee. They said since the family on all America records had stated they were from Ballinamore, County Leitrim, that they probably came from Oughteragh Parish area. Patrick died too early (1853) for any death/burial records. James Fee was born in 1832, again too early for any Baptismal records (Oughteragh parish records begin in 1841). Patrick and Catherine were probably married around 1825, again too early for any parish marriage record (again Oughteragh parish marriage records begin in 1841). I was disappointed that the Leitrim Center did not look into any of James Fee's siblings. When one asks for a "family search", they only do "your line". I have found so much by straying off on side branches! I later asked them to check on the marriage record of 1843 for James' half brother Thomas Fee and a Mary Baxter. They found the record and I was able to get the record from the parish priest. Sadly, neither Thomas Fee nor Mary Baxter listed the townland where they lived! Ugh! Thomas and Mary had had 2 children in Ireland before they came to America. The Leitrim Center did find those baptismals for me, 1844 and 1847. Again no townland was listed. Michael wrote: Another thing you can do is to check the registry of deeds. All the indexes and memorials have been filmed by the LDS. These are records of land transactions and have been indexed by both townland name and surname. Of the two the townland index is usually the most useful unless you have a very unusual surname. My Comments: Michael, I have looked at some LDS films of Registry of Deeds/Memorials, and found nothing. The Clements family were the landlords for the Liscuilfea townland land. I could not find any reference to "renters" in Liscuilfea on any of the Clements' deeds for the early to mid1800s. I still have to check on the landlord for Dernahelty Beg townland. The name Dernahilthra has been passed down through family stories and the Leitrim Genealogy Center said this had to have been Dernahelty Beg. Not sure why Dernahelty Beg versus Dernahelty More.... My ggggrandfather Patrick Fee was first married to a Rose Dolan. They had 2 sons Thomas and Michael. There were Dolans living in Dernahelty Beg on the 1833 Tithe. Perhaps, Patrick lived there on some of his first wife's family's land???? The Tithe has a D. Brady listed as the proprietor of the land, but I believe Brady oversaw the land holdings for what appears to be a group of landlords, Suley, Jones and Hodder. I may be mispelling these names as the script writing on the Tithe is impossible to read at times. These 3 names appear as the proprietor on other townlands very near to Dernahelty Beg. Sometimes they are with D. Brady and sometimes by themselves. I still have to determine if all these people were different levels of overseers for the "real" landlord or if the 3 were the landlords. I have been told that Brady was an overseer, a bad one at that. Michael wrote: The next step involves travel to Ireland My Comments: I have travelled to Ireland.....marvelous journeys meeting wonderful people.....I have found many "far-off" cousins in Ireland...but alas Patrick's gravestone and exact townland land still eludes me. I have found the gravestone of the wife, Margaret, of John Fee of Liscuilfea. She died in August of 1853 and was thus among the first to be buried in the Aughnasheelin graveyard as that cemetery opened in the early 1850s. Only her name is on the stone, but a descendent of hers has told me that there are probably more people, including her husband, John, buried in the plot with her whose names were not put on the stone. I seriously doubt that my Patrick Fee is buried in this plot. He died January/February of 1853 since his wife and 3 youngest children arrived in Boston May 1853. Thus he died before Margaret and I would hope wound have had a stone marker. There are many old unreadable gravestones in this Aughnasheelin cemetery and in the older Oughteragh cemetery. Margaret Fee's gravestone is however the oldest Fee marker I have found in either of these cemeteries. I also found my Tubman cousins while visiting Leitrim. Thomas Fee's (first son of Patrick Fee) marriage record had noted a William Tubman as a witness. Tubman cousins have told me that William was probably a "cousin" to Thomas through his step-mother Catherine Tubman Fee. Thomas Fee would have chosen a close unmarried friend/relative. William Tubman was unmarried at the time (1841), close in age and being the nephew of Catherine Tubman Fee, Thomas and he would have known each other well. Cathy wrote: I can't fault your interpretation of the records- it works for me! However, the reason for Griffiths was to establish the land/property value for tax purposes. So,although it shows John Fee as the landlord for Rose's house, we are never going to know who actually paid the rent. If it was his mother,maybe she preferred the peace and quiet of her own place rather than in a household full of kids! You would need to establish her approximate age to ever work out if she was his mother,his sister-in-law,or even an unmarried sister. My Comments: Cathy, I did not realize that I could not assume that John paid the rent as he was listed first for the Liscuilfea land, with Rose after him and shown as paying John rent. Thank you. The Revised Valuations however show John renting from the Clements family and Rose renting from John Fee. I have tried to find Rose's death record. The Leitrim Genealogy Center should have it in their record collection if Rose did indeed die after her name was crossed out on the Revised Valuations in 1863-1864. When the Leitrim Genealogy Center wrote that they had no death record for a Rose Fee during that time, I began to think that perhaps she had left Ireland to join family in America....I have found no Rose Fee of the correct "age span" in Hingham, Massachusetts where Bridget Fee (whom I believe was Rose's daughter) lived. But am still looking. U.S. Census and State's Census records leave out intervening years. I need to invigorate a family member close to or in Hingham to search through Hingham directories. Cathy wrote: Just out of interest,the numbering system used by Griffiths can be of significance. In this case it was straightforward- 1 a+b The instruction manual that accompanied the Griffiths survyors stipulated: "when a cottager's house and gardens are included within the limits of a farm,the farmer's house should have the italic letter a prefixed to the number of the lot.....the cottager's houses the letter b,c,d etc." Some entries are more complex and it is sometimes possible to deduce family relationships from them. In general terms,anyone holding 5 acres or less was considered a cottier or labourer.Between 5-30 acres was a small farmer,and more than 30 acres, a large farmer. A building could be only a "house" or an "office". A house included dwellings,and public buildings such as schools,churches. An office included factories,mills,shops,as well as farm buildings-stables,cowbarn,piggery etc. A typical holding will be "house,office and land",or "house and garden". A garden meant a small plot of land used to raise food,be it in the country or in town. It was not a flower bed. My Comments: Rose was definitely renting from John a house and small garden. Thank you Cathy, now I know this was a veggie garden..... The Tithe, Griffith's and the Revised Valuations all listed pretty much the same "things" for the Fee property. Acreage has stayed at 25-27 acres with a house, office and land. The later Census returns listed all the buildings so I could imagine all the different types of barns, stables, piggery etc. All of this has stayed in the hands of a Fee family member up to today! It was very emotional for me to walk around the few remaining buildings and imagine the family living and working there in the 1800s! The current Fee cousin living there has told me that they "had" dairy cows as the land was not good for sheep! So these Fee people were small dairy farmers......My great great grandfather James Fee continued this same small dairy farming tradition when he came to Hingham, Massachusetts. Cathy wrote: Going back to Marcie's family- I think Rose's name was STRETTON/STRETTAN rather than Stratton. I'm sure you have found this already- there are very few of that name in the parish. Michael,farming in Drumbad,and John,Hugh and Hugh jun. in Drumbibe. The RC records date from 1841. My Comments: Cathy, you are correct, Rose's name was Stretton. I have found the other Strettons but have not "dug" deeply into them as of yet. Cathy wrote: I don't have a townland map of Leitrim,so I can't tell how close the townlands are to each other.I did notice another John Fee farming in Clogher,and a further 9+ acres of land rented to a John Fee in Cromlin and Unshinagh.Whether or not this last was your John or the other one,you can only tell by looking at the revisions and comparing dates etc.(I'm sure you've done this already.) My Comments: I have "gathered" the names of all the Fee families in Oughteragh Parish from the Tithe in 1833 through the Revised Valuations in the 1920s....and 1901 and 1911 Census returns. Many lived within a few miles walking distance of Liscuilfea townland. It is these Fee families I am somewhat concentrating on. Unshinagh and Liscuilfea touch each other, and the John Fee of Unshinagh died the same year as the John Fee of Unshinagh. When I had asked the Leitrim Genealogy Center for both of these death records, I was told the records would be of no further use to me as I already knew where each had lived and that was all that was on the records.... Cathy wrote: Just one other avenue - do you know the name of the landlord in 1833? Grenham mentions estate records for Sir Humphrey Crofton being available in the NLI. He includes townlands in Oughteragh parish "rental,March 1833,with tenant's names in alphabetical order...." Now,the Croftons no longer owned any land in that parish, in Grifiths c 1856,but they might have done so in 1833. Just a thought. My comments: The landlord for Liscuilfea was the Clements family. From Grenham's book, the only Clements land records yet available are for Carrigallen Civil Parish, not Oughteragh Parish. I have transcribed the 1833 Tithe for Oughteragh Parish, and cannot find Crofton among the landlords or proprietors of the land. Thus I guess one of the proprietors listed was overseeing Sir Humphrey Crofton's land? Another fine excuse to return to Dublin and the National Library! As I wrote above to Michael, am searching now in Dernahelty Beg townland but have to figure who exactly was the landlord versus overseer for a landlord. However on somewhat of a positive note, I have learned that on the Tithe the phrase "& Co." after a name meant that there were other families also on the land along with the family of the person named. The person named was the one responsible for paying the tithe. "& Co." appears with James Fee in Liscuilfea, probably for John Fee's family. If my Patrick Fee were there with his wife and all their children too, there would have been way too many people for too little space, even for the Famine times. 16 children and 4 adults with just John and Patrick's families...I do not know how many, if any children James and Rose Fee had. The house has 4 rooms and 2 chimneys. One chimney for the kitche and the other chimney being for 2 back to back fireplaces in 2 rooms. There was no "& Co." for the Dolan land in Dernahelty Beg. Why does Patrick Fee not appear on the Tithe? He refused to pay? His land was not assessed for some reason? Nancy wrote: Have you ascertained that there are no surviving parish records for Ballinamore Parish for 1853? I have read all the surviving 19th century entries for that parish and do not recall that deaths were missing as late as 1853, but my memory could be faulty. There are of course normal gaps in parish records from 1847 to 1851 or 1852 because of the Famine--and sometimes the death of the priest from typhus or cholera, not to mention starvation--but rarely much later than that in parishes for which records have been photographed. My Comments: The Catholic Parish records for Oughteragh Parish's baptisms and marriages begin in 1841. The Leitrim Genealogy Center wrote me that there were very few death records prior to the civil registration. They had nothing on "my" Patrick. Nancy wrote: Since you mention that your Fee information came from the Ballinamore "area," which could be defined to lie in the Diocese of either Ardagh and Killmore, do you know which is applicable? The LDS films include ony the Diocese of Ardagh. However, if you are going to Dublin, or you have someone there who can do a look-up for you, try the National Library; they have more extensive transcriptions. My Comments: Oughteragh Parish is in the Kilmore Diocese and according to the Leitrim Genealogy Center again, the Diocese gave them all the parish records.....But I will check on the National Library for other Oughteragh Parish records. Nancy wrote: Another thing you could try is this. If your ancestor had a lease on tithable land in the 1830's, and he would have to have had one to appear on the tithe applotments, check to see who the landowner was. Then check the holdings of the National Archives to see whether the applicable estate records have survived. As an additional possibility, later estate records, if available, would show whether someone of the surname Fee got his lease upon his death. If so, you might have another line to explore. My Comments: As I wrote under Michael's and Cathy's comments on Deeds/Memorials and Estate records, I have searched some records with no luck so far. However, I think this is probably the only route I have left. And from what I have gathered about estate papers, some have yet to be made public by the landowner's descendents. Nancy wrote: It is not surprising that your ancestor remained in Ireland. He was the tenant in chief--i.e., his appears on the tithe applotments--and his land was cultivatable, so he was much more able to weather the Famine when it came and probably reluctant to leave a reasonably favorable economic situation for the uncertainties of emigration. (Pasture and bog, the other two possibilities, were not subject to the tithe.) The fact that his children left within the time frame of 1848-51 also testifies to somewhat better than average economic status. Most of the landless and the conacre renters had no choice but to leave during Black '47; it was predominantly the so-called strong farmers who left after that. (They had the means to survive the first truly terrible year of the Famine.) My Comments: Some clarification for you Nancy. The James Fee on the Tithe in 1833 was possibly my ggggrandfather's brother. "My" Patrick Fee is not on the Tithe... As I wrote above, I know he was there then so was he not on the Tithe because he refused to pay or his land was not assessed? His son my gggrandfather did start a dairy farm in Massachusetts. Would pasture land not be assessed because it was no cultivated? Patrick's children left Ireland one by one and all ended up in Hingham, Massachusetts! I have always thought the first one saved money up to pay for the next, then those 2 saved up for the next, and so on. All survived the ocean voyage and knew exactly where to go (Hingham) after landing in Boston! Sounds like a pretty well laid out plan...... I think this is about all anyone can read. I look forward to any and all comments and suggestions. Thank you Michael, Cathy and Nancy. Marcie