I recently saw a query on a mail list to 'Hayes Index' of the Griffiths Valuation........... and in my own mind, I took 'umbridge' on behalf of the person who was being referred to as 'Hayes'. I have seen John (John Hayes URL: http://www.failteromhat.com/) : , being referred to by his first name on various mail lists - to see him referred to by only his surname and in what I considered to be a critical manner i.e. "Why didn't Hayes include such and such a townland" - a criticism may not have been intended, but that was how I read it - 'Hayes' had missed something - why?? On these mail lists, we all come from different countries, different continents - different worlds. My idea of manners may not exactly be the same ideas of extremely well mannered people in their own countries. It is very easy for any of us to insult another without meaning to, we follow etiquette as we know it to be in our own countries. We say things that are acceptable in our culture, but not in another. So, I'm not trying to pick on any person in this mail - it is going to a number of lists. I believe that no insult was intended by the person who commented on 'Hayes index' - and I believe that there is some misplaced belief amongst the International Genealogical Community that John Hayes has actually transcribed the complete Griffiths Primary Valuation Index for any parish he has listed on his web site - this is not so, and John clearly states that fact on his site. The transcriptions that John has on his web site are *EXTRACTS* from the Griffiths for whatever parishes he has listed. He may have the complete index for all Cork parishes, or maybe complete for some - and maybe for some other parishes in other counties for which he has a particular interest. However, John Hayes, does not have a complete index to the Griffiths valuation for all parishes listed on his web site - he says so. If, you check John's listing for any parish and find that the townland you are interested in is not listed, then, this more than likely means that John did not index that townland when he was working on that parish in whichever county it is. Etiquette - manners..........how we refer to people. In the International context, if a person has published an article in a journal/book - then, it is perfectly acceptable to refer to that person by their surname, *but* you give the year of the publication to which you refer after their name. So, if I was to publish an article in 1983, and again in 1995 and 2001 - if you were to refer to me as Lyons (1983) or Lyons (1995) ; Lyons (2001), then that is perfectly acceptable. Surname and year is all that is required. If I publish something on my web site - then, that is a different matter. Whether the material is original - a new transcription, or a Griffiths transcription, you cannot give a year, because you don't know the year that the page was put on the web - *BUT* you should give a URL - my home page or the URL for the specific page that you refer to. The same goes for John Hayes - he is alive, actively working on his site - he lives in Ireland. You should not say 'Hayes' without giving a URL for any reference to anything that is on his web site - or any other person's web site He should not be referred to as this anonymous 'Hayes' - he has an incredible web site, into which he puts an enormous amount of work - and regardless of whether he has indexed the townland that you are interested in or not, he deserves to be recognised by the use of his full name and the URL of his web site. Here (Ireland), to refer to a person just by surname and nothing else - that's derogatory. It doesn't matter who uses it or says it. Surnames on their own are most often used in boys schools, by teachers - not necessarily in a derogatory context, but in an "I am superior to you" context, "answer me, do as I say".............you are only your surname. A surname used by a group of peers is most often taken to be in a derogatory context. Snide, sneering 'O'Brien' did this or that - Would you look at 'O'Brien'............. When person is regarded as being a person - acknowledgment of being - one uses their first name, or a title - Mr, Mrs, Ms, Miss at the very least It doesn't matter if it is a person off the streets..............an old person , a child............ You refer to them by first name, thus /respecting/acknowledging some respect of their self. Whatever a person's age, colour, achievements - they deserve respect of self. The majority of people in Ireland ( outside of the male teacher/pupil relationship) will always be mannerly and acknowledge any other human being with respect - unless they have cause to dis-respect that person, in which case they may use the surname only John Hayes is an Irish man, living in Ireland, who has created one of the best web sites coming out of Ireland - that those who seek their Irish Ancestry use. I do not know John Hayes personally, but I have admired his site, we have communicated once or twice on different occasions over the last few years. I apologise for the length of my mail - I apologise to the list managers of whichever lists I send this to - however, I do believe that those of you who seek your ancestry do need to understand that sometimes, you might say something that you consider to be perfectly acceptable in an email, that Irish people do not think acceptable. As I have already said - I am not trying to 'fight' with anyone, I don't believe that any insult or harm was intended by the original poster - but I do think that maybe you should know that here in Ireland, we don't call people by their surname (generally) unless we are being derogatory. Shoolchildren and Engineers are the only groups for which surname usage would be common. Jane