Hello All, Many of the results I've found at http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/ contain Latin forenames. This Latin-to-English list has been helpful in translating the Latin forenames: http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/content/images/Latin%20Forenames%203.pdf I'm researching a James Hawkins, who with his wife Mary ?Moran? may have been the parents of the Catherine Hawkins who married Gardiner Curtis in the first half of the 1800's. I've found nine baptismal records between 1810 and 1840 for what seem to be the children of James and Mary. 1810-1821 RC St. Andrew in Dublin; children Mariam Helenum, Catherinam (bap. 1813), Mariam, Gulielmum, Jacobum, Joannem Joseph; parents Jacobi Hawkins & Maria ___ 1831 RC Sandyford; child Petrus; parents Jacobi Hawkins & Maria ___ 1839 RC Rathmines, child Maria; parents Jacobi Hawkins & Mariae Moran 1840 RC SS Michael & John in Dublin; child Willm*; parents James Hawkins and Mary ___ The Forenames pdf list has these entries: JACOBA = JAMES JACOBI = JACOB JACOBUM = JACOB JACOBUS = JAMES JOCOBUM = JACOB A quick online check of the names Jacob and James suggests that they derived from the same Hebrew name, which may have meant "holder of the heel" or "supplanter." What do you think? Is there any argument against my assuming that the 1840 James Hawkins and Mary ___ are the same as the earlier Jacobi Hawkins and Maria ___ or Mariae Moran? Also, why in the same document would the child be named Jacobum and the father be Jacobi? The church-register image is not yet available, so I can't check for a transcription error. I looked at the image for the 1839 case in which the child was named Maria and the mother was Mariae, but I couldn't read the writing well enough to tell whether the Mariae was a correct transcription. * This site http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/palaeography/where_to_start.htm explains abbreviations used in old documents, as well as many other challenges to reading and understanding the documents. Thanks for any and all thoughts. PJ

Latin has different forms of the same noun for the nominative (subject) and genitive (possessive). Thus 'James, son of James' would be Jacobus, filius Jacobi'. I am puzzled by 'Jacobum', a neuter form - not normally very good for producing children! Formally this should be the accusative (object) form of Jacobus, as in 'Mary marries James' but many priests' latin was even worse than mine! I do not believe you can tell the difference in the latin form between Jacob and James. An individual parish priest or parish clerk may have decided to adopt a convention that Jacobus=James and Jacobum=Jacob - but the father's name should be given as Jacobi in both cases! I think your assumption that James Hawkins and Mary are the same as the earlier Jacobi Hawkins and Maria is perfectly justified. Alan of Durham > -----Original Message----- > From: irl-dublin-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:irl-dublin- > bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of pjsalis@hal-pc.org > Sent: 09 August 2012 16:57 > To: Dublin list > Subject: [IRL-DUBLIN] Latin forenames, tracing lines, & reading old > documents > > Hello All, > > Many of the results I've found at > http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/ contain Latin > forenames. > > This Latin-to-English list has been helpful in translating the Latin > forenames: > http://www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk/content/images/Latin%20Forenames%203. > pdf > > > I'm researching a James Hawkins, who with his wife Mary ?Moran? may > have been the parents of the Catherine Hawkins who married Gardiner > Curtis in the first half of the 1800's. I've found nine baptismal > records between > 1810 and 1840 for what seem to be the children of James and Mary. > > 1810-1821 RC St. Andrew in Dublin; children Mariam Helenum, Catherinam > (bap. 1813), Mariam, Gulielmum, Jacobum, Joannem Joseph; parents Jacobi > Hawkins & Maria ___ > 1831 RC Sandyford; child Petrus; parents Jacobi Hawkins & Maria ___ > 1839 RC Rathmines, child Maria; parents Jacobi Hawkins & Mariae Moran > 1840 RC SS Michael & John in Dublin; child Willm*; parents James > Hawkins and Mary ___ > > The Forenames pdf list has these entries: > JACOBA = JAMES > JACOBI = JACOB > JACOBUM = JACOB > JACOBUS = JAMES > JOCOBUM = JACOB > A quick online check of the names Jacob and James suggests that they > derived from the same Hebrew name, which may have meant "holder of the > heel" or "supplanter." > > What do you think? Is there any argument against my assuming that the > 1840 James Hawkins and Mary ___ are the same as the earlier Jacobi > Hawkins and Maria ___ or Mariae Moran? > > Also, why in the same document would the child be named Jacobum and the > father be Jacobi? The church-register image is not yet available, so I > can't check for a transcription error. I looked at the image for the > 1839 case in which the child was named Maria and the mother was Mariae, > but I couldn't read the writing well enough to tell whether the Mariae > was a correct transcription. > > * This site > http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/palaeography/where_to_start.htm > explains abbreviations used in old documents, as well as many other > challenges to reading and understanding the documents. > > Thanks for any and all thoughts. > > PJ > > > > > > > ****************************** > Topic: A mailing list for anyone with a genealogical interest in County > Dublin, Ireland and the City of Dublin. > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRL-DUBLIN- > request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in > the subject and the body of the message

Alan If I remember my Latin correct "JACOBUM" is the accusative case. ie the Object case Still I know I will be corrected if I am Wrong, its such a LONG LONG time since I did Latin Regards Peter Collins ----- Original Message ----- From: " Alan Swindale" <ajs@fivenine.co.uk> To: <irl-dublin@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2012 7:42 PM Subject: Re: [IRL-DUBLIN] Jacobum vs Jacobi > Latin has different forms of the same noun for the nominative (subject) > and > genitive (possessive). Thus 'James, son of James' would be Jacobus, filius > Jacobi'. I am puzzled by 'Jacobum', a neuter form - not normally very good