Hello, I noticed on the churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie 1854 COI marriage for James M. Brown and Margaret Pemberton that two witnesses, both males, were listed on the transcription. I looked at the MARRIAGE records for the three marriages I have for children of Gardiner Curtis and Catherine Hawkins. Two witnesses were listed on all three records, one of which was RC (1868) and the other two COI (1877, 1879). For the RC marriage the witnesses were one female and one male; for the COI marriages both were males. In an earlier post I noted that none of the COI BIRTH records in this family listed sponsors, whereas the one RC birth record did list one female and one male sponsor. In this family's case, RC records listed both birth sponsors and marriage witnesses, one female and one male in each case. For their COI records, no birth sponsors were listed, but witnesses, both males, were listed for the two marriage records I have. I wonder if there was a law requiring witnesses to a marriage, but no such law requiring sponsors at a baptism? Would that indicate that the state considered marriage a civil event, which implied the need for witnesses, but considered baptism an ecclesiastical event, and not subject to civil rules? And is it significant that the RC church allowed females to be sponsors and witnesses, whereas the COI church may not have (I have too few records to make a conclusion yet). As an aside: On the Brooklyn, New York, list, we've discussed the difficulty in finding some immigrant RC marriage records in Brooklyn and other areas of NYC, even from the era of civil registration, when priests and preachers were required to notify civil authorities of all marriages. Some listers have noted that many priests considered marriage a sacrament and none of the state's business, so they did not send any notification to the civil authorities. For that reason, finding a marriage record sometimes involves knowing or guessing where a couple lived and finding the probable nearby churches where they might have married, and hoping the churches still exist, and hoping the church records are accessible, and hoping a church official is willing to provide a copy of the record. PJ

PJ, I have COI marriages where there are as many as 3 witnesses. One female and 2 males. The sponsors are godparents and must be RC. They can have a Godfather and Godmother or only one of them. The sponsors are responsible for the spiritual development of the child. Most Protestants don't follow the practice of naming Godparents (sponsors) at a baptism they just have people witness the baptism. Marg >From the Beautiful British Columbia Cariboo Region, Canada ----- Original Message ----- From: <pjsalis@hal-pc.org> To: "Dublin list" <IRL-DUBLIN@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2012 7:30 AM Subject: [IRL-DUBLIN] COI vs. RC birth & marriage records,sponsors & witnesses Hello, I noticed on the churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie 1854 COI marriage for James M. Brown and Margaret Pemberton that two witnesses, both males, were listed on the transcription. I looked at the MARRIAGE records for the three marriages I have for children of Gardiner Curtis and Catherine Hawkins. Two witnesses were listed on all three records, one of which was RC (1868) and the other two COI (1877, 1879). For the RC marriage the witnesses were one female and one male; for the COI marriages both were males. In an earlier post I noted that none of the COI BIRTH records in this family listed sponsors, whereas the one RC birth record did list one female and one male sponsor. In this family's case, RC records listed both birth sponsors and marriage witnesses, one female and one male in each case. For their COI records, no birth sponsors were listed, but witnesses, both males, were listed for the two marriage records I have. I wonder if there was a law requiring witnesses to a marriage, but no such law requiring sponsors at a baptism? Would that indicate that the state considered marriage a civil event, which implied the need for witnesses, but considered baptism an ecclesiastical event, and not subject to civil rules? And is it significant that the RC church allowed females to be sponsors and witnesses, whereas the COI church may not have (I have too few records to make a conclusion yet). As an aside: On the Brooklyn, New York, list, we've discussed the difficulty in finding some immigrant RC marriage records in Brooklyn and other areas of NYC, even from the era of civil registration, when priests and preachers were required to notify civil authorities of all marriages. Some listers have noted that many priests considered marriage a sacrament and none of the state's business, so they did not send any notification to the civil authorities. For that reason, finding a marriage record sometimes involves knowing or guessing where a couple lived and finding the probable nearby churches where they might have married, and hoping the churches still exist, and hoping the church records are accessible, and hoping a church official is willing to provide a copy of the record. PJ ****************************** Topic: A mailing list for anyone with a genealogical interest in County Dublin, Ireland and the City of Dublin. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRL-DUBLIN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.2221 / Virus Database: 2634/5459 - Release Date: 12/14/12