Very interesting, Nivard. I've wondered how much passive resistance went on in Ireland, especially under the Empire, and I get the distinct feeling some of my people continued the practice over here in the US when it came to officialdom. That's part of why I'm thinking about the apparent massaged truth I find in some of their records. I suspect I'd act the same way, given their experiences. I have nothing but admiration for their courage, their perseverance, and their making the best of things. What's a two-finger salute? Is it the same as our middle-finger salute? PJ > > Its debatable just how many could or could not read & write > > Then as now people did not trust the authorities and said they could not > write when they could, it was a two finger salute to the powers that be, > many thought the census was just a way of checking up on them and may > give the government more ways to tax them > >

I have had people tell me some of the outrageous answers they gave on the census. Some saying they lived in a 2 room home with 9 children, or live in a 20 room home with 1 child, etc. and occupations that are clearly figments of their imagination. I let them know, as a family researcher, what I think of this. These people just don't think it's anyone's business what they have. Marg >From the Beautiful British Columbia Cariboo Region, Canada ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mary Benedict" <maryscribe@msn.com> To: <irl-dublin@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2012 11:51 AM Subject: Re: [IRL-DUBLIN] 1901 and 1911 Irish census question This might explain why some of my ancestors in the USA are in every census and others never show up in a census or don't show up until they marry. I found myself wondering if certain family members just never answered the door. > Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2012 19:43:36 +0100 > From: ovington1@sky.com > To: irl-dublin@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [IRL-DUBLIN] 1901 and 1911 Irish census question > > Hi again > > Whilst the Irish had their own added reasons for not wanting to comply > with the governments wishes its a widespread feeling across all Countries > > There was a deeply held mistrust of authority, its much the same today > > At a local level people did not want the neighbours to know, and higher > they were worried the government would use the data for some nefarious > means, so its little wonder we find so many discrepancies > > On the whole people gave the truth or somewhere near it, so our problem > is working out who told porkies and who didn't > > And yes the two finger salute is not dissimilar to a middle finger, we > have both :-) > > Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) >

This might explain why some of my ancestors in the USA are in every census and others never show up in a census or don't show up until they marry. I found myself wondering if certain family members just never answered the door. > Date: Sun, 26 Aug 2012 19:43:36 +0100 > From: ovington1@sky.com > To: irl-dublin@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [IRL-DUBLIN] 1901 and 1911 Irish census question > > Hi again > > Whilst the Irish had their own added reasons for not wanting to comply > with the governments wishes its a widespread feeling across all Countries > > There was a deeply held mistrust of authority, its much the same today > > At a local level people did not want the neighbours to know, and higher > they were worried the government would use the data for some nefarious > means, so its little wonder we find so many discrepancies > > On the whole people gave the truth or somewhere near it, so our problem > is working out who told porkies and who didn't > > And yes the two finger salute is not dissimilar to a middle finger, we > have both :-) > > Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) > > On 26/08/2012 19:30, pjsalis@hal-pc.org wrote: > > > > Very interesting, Nivard. > > > > I've wondered how much passive resistance went on in Ireland, especially > > under the Empire, and I get the distinct feeling some of my people > > continued the practice over here in the US when it came to officialdom. > > That's part of why I'm thinking about the apparent massaged truth I find > > in some of their records. I suspect I'd act the same way, given their > > experiences. I have nothing but admiration for their courage, their > > perseverance, and their making the best of things. > > > > What's a two-finger salute? Is it the same as our middle-finger salute? > > > > PJ > ****************************** > Topic: A mailing list for anyone with a genealogical interest in County Dublin, Ireland and the City of Dublin. > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRL-DUBLIN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Here's part of what what I've read about the Irish censuses. *** http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/help/about19011911census.html "What information does the census contain? Ireland is unusual among English-speaking census-taking countries in that our original household manuscript returns survive. These are the forms filled out and signed by the head of each household on census night. Most other countries only have Enumerators' books, where family details were transcribed by the person charged with collecting the census information. The basic topographical divisions for the census are: County; District Electoral Division; Townland or Street. This is a simple hierarchical structure which makes it easy to access any area in the country. The returns are arranged in clusters by townland/street within district electoral division within county. For each townland/street, there are a number of original household returns, filled in and signed by heads of households, and three statistical returns, dealing with religious denominations, classification of buildings, and out-offices and farm-steadings, filled out by the Enumerator for that townland/street." ** It goes on to say *** "The census also records an individual's ability to read or write ...." *** I know that at least some of my ancestors in Ireland read and wrote either not at all or less than fluently, and some were semi-numerate at best. Who filled out the forms for the household head or household members in such cases? I don't see an answer on the page cited above. PJ

Would this pertain to the Irish Census? Cara -----Original Message----- From: irl-dublin-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:irl-dublin-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of pjsalis@hal-pc.org Sent: 26 August 2012 06:27 To: Boston list; Brooklyn list; Dublin list; Middlesex list; NYC list Subject: [IRL-DUBLIN] 1940 US census -- circled X beside name Hello List, In case I'm not the only one in the world who didn't know this, an X beside a 1940 census name indicates the informant or informants in a household. *** http://usa.ipums.org/usa/voliii/inst1940.shtml 1940 Census: Instructions to Enumerators 446. Identification of Persons Furnishing Information.-Write an X with a circle around it in col. 7 after the name of the person who furnishes you with ... the information concerning the members of the household. (See illustrative example.) If you find it necessary to obtain the information from a person who is not a member of the household, write the name of this person in the left-hand margin, opposite the entries for the household, thus: "Information from John Brown, neighbor." *** PJ in Texas ****************************** Topic: A mailing list for anyone with a genealogical interest in County Dublin, Ireland and the City of Dublin. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRL-DUBLIN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.2197 / Virus Database: 2437/5224 - Release Date: 08/25/12 ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2012.0.2197 / Virus Database: 2437/5224 - Release Date: 08/25/12

Hi Cara No, as the way the USA takes the census is very different to how its done in the UK & Ireland In the USA they take it door to door with the enumerator taking the information down In the UK & Ireland a form (or schedule) is left with the householder to fill in and be collected after the census day, that schedule is then transcribed onto the forms we see today (except the Eng/Wales 1911 which is in the householders own hand) Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) On 26/08/2012 01:44, Cara wrote: > Would this pertain to the Irish Census? > > Cara > > Hello List, > > In case I'm not the only one in the world who didn't know this, an X > beside a 1940 census name indicates the informant or informants in a > household.

Nivard, The US census has been invaluable to me in reconstructing the history of my Irish ancestors who emigrated from Co. Dublin to Massachusetts and New York between 1900 and the early 1920's. I imagine that's true for other US researchers of Irish ancestors as well. And, when I've come across information in the pre-1940 censuses that seemed questionable, I've wished I knew who provided that information. Hence my interest in the 1940 innovation of identifying informants. Your message made me think about how the census is conducted now. I realized (duh!) that at some point US enumeration changed from personal interview to mail-back paper form. So I researched. The change began in 1960. Here's what I found: *** http://www.census.gov/history/www/innovations/data_collection/counting_the_population.html Counting the population >From the 18th through the middle of the 20th century, enumerators traveled from house to house to take the census. The enumerators filled in information on a census schedule for members of the household. A uniform printed population schedule was first developed and used for the 1830 census. Separate schedules were eventually used to collect information on manufacturing, commerce, mining and other economic activities. For the 1960 census, the Census Bureau mailed out questionnaires to households in urban areas. Householders were asked to complete the questionnaire and hold it until an enumerator came by to pick it up. In 1970, the Census Bureau implemented a mail-out/mail-back enumeration for households in larger metropolitan areas (approximately 60 percent the U.S. population). Today, mail-out/mail-back procedures are used extensively for both the census and surveys. Self-enumeration by mail improves quality of the resulting data and reduces costs. In the 1990s, the Census Bureau developed electronic data collection methods. New interviewing techniques, including computer-assisted personal interviewing (CAPI) and computer-assisted telephone interviewing (CATI), complemented mail-out/mail-back procedures and helped cut costs. Electronic reporting, employing computer tape, diskettes, e-mail, and electronic questionnaires, made it easier for businesses to respond to economic surveys and censuses. *** Thanks for the memory prod. PJ > Hi Cara > > No, as the way the USA takes the census is very different to how its > done in the UK & Ireland > > In the USA they take it door to door with the enumerator taking the > information down

> Cara, As far as I know, this was a new feature introduced for the 1940 US census, which has just recently been released for viewing online. I posted my message to this list because I thought some US researchers with Irish interests might see it here and not be subscribed to other US lists I post to. I don't know anything about the "modern" Irish censuses. Cheers, PJ Would this pertain to the Irish Census? > > Cara > > -----Original Message----- > From: irl-dublin-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:irl-dublin-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of pjsalis@hal-pc.org > Sent: 26 August 2012 06:27 > To: Boston list; Brooklyn list; Dublin list; Middlesex list; NYC list > Subject: [IRL-DUBLIN] 1940 US census -- circled X beside name > > Hello List, > > In case I'm not the only one in the world who didn't know this, an X > beside a 1940 census name indicates the informant or informants in a > household. >

Dorcas Beard marriage licence 1759 - Dublin to William Burdett Margaret Beard marriage licence year 1747 Dublin Groom John Harrison Marriage Licence Banns Thomas Beard and Arabella Wilkins 1794 Richard Beard of Athy Co Kildare a shoemaker 1729 held a licence Taken from the Dublin Grant Book Nothing more recorded and nothing more known by me It would make sense to compile all these bits of data together and see where they lead over time Cheers Cara

Hello List, In case I'm not the only one in the world who didn't know this, an X beside a 1940 census name indicates the informant or informants in a household. *** http://usa.ipums.org/usa/voliii/inst1940.shtml 1940 Census: Instructions to Enumerators 446. Identification of Persons Furnishing Information.-Write an X with a circle around it in col. 7 after the name of the person who furnishes you with ... the information concerning the members of the household. (See illustrative example.) If you find it necessary to obtain the information from a person who is not a member of the household, write the name of this person in the left-hand margin, opposite the entries for the household, thus: "Information from John Brown, neighbor." *** PJ in Texas

Googled his name and Dublin and found this record:  Area - DUBLIN (RC) , Parish/Church/Congregation - ST. ANDREW Marriage of SAMUEL HIGGINSON of N/R and BRIDGET O' BRIEN of N/R on 4 September 1853   Husband Wife NameSAMUEL HIGGINSON BRIDGET O' BRIEN AddressN/R N/R OccupationN/R N/R FatherHIGGINSON O'BRIEN MotherN/R N/R   Further details in the record Witness 1MICHAEL HIGGINSON Witness 2ELLEN CARROLL About the record Book Number Page Entry Number Record_Identifier N/R N/R N/R DU-RC-MA-38246 The church register page containing this record has not yet been imaged.   Here is the link: http://churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie/churchrecords/details/1dff350436934 ________________________________ From: Valerie B Garton <vbgarton@optusnet.com.au> To: irl-dublin@rootsweb.com; irl-dublin-city@rootsweb.com; goons@rootsweb.com Sent: Friday, August 24, 2012 2:37 PM Subject: [IRL-DUBLIN] Does anyone have access to this reference please ? Samuel Higginson 1 May 1787 St Andrew's Church Dublin ? religion D. A. Chart. Marriage Entries from the Registers of the Parishes of St. Andrew, St. Anne, St. Auden, & St. Bride (Dublin), 1632-1800. Exeter and London: William Pollard & Co. Ltd., 1913. 185 pages. I am looking for the details of the marriage of Samuel HIGGINSON on 1 May 1787 at St Andrew's Church Dublin. The above contains marriages that are not in the church registers but found in parochial papers - ancestry.com Cheers from Valerie in sunny Sydney ****************************** Topic: A mailing list for anyone with a genealogical interest in County Dublin, Ireland and the City of Dublin. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRL-DUBLIN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Thanks, Cara. I will keep all these leads and try to check them out. Jim On Sat, Aug 25, 2012 at 3:04 AM, Cara <cara_links@bigpond.com> wrote: > Dorcas Beard marriage licence 1759 - Dublin to William Burdett > > > > Margaret Beard marriage licence year 1747 Dublin Groom John Harrison > > > > Marriage Licence Banns Thomas Beard and Arabella Wilkins 1794 > > > > > > Richard Beard of Athy Co Kildare a shoemaker 1729 held a licence > > > > Taken from the Dublin Grant Book > > > > Nothing more recorded and nothing more known by me > > > > It would make sense to compile all these bits of data together and see > where > they lead over time > > > > > > Cheers > > Cara > > > > ****************************** > Topic: A mailing list for anyone with a genealogical interest in County > Dublin, Ireland and the City of Dublin. > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > IRL-DUBLIN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

D. A. Chart. Marriage Entries from the Registers of the Parishes of St. Andrew, St. Anne, St. Auden, & St. Bride (Dublin), 1632-1800. Exeter and London: William Pollard & Co. Ltd., 1913. 185 pages. I am looking for the details of the marriage of Samuel HIGGINSON on 1 May 1787 at St Andrew's Church Dublin. The above contains marriages that are not in the church registers but found in parochial papers - ancestry.com Cheers from Valerie in sunny Sydney

23/12/1788 Job Darlington 7 years Burial Redcross Co Wicklow 26/1/1789 Mrs Darlington ?7 Years Of City of Dublin Burial Redcross CWicklow 9/6/1789 Job Darlington 5 months Burial Redcross C Wicklow 25/6/1789 Mrs Mary Darlington 23 years Of City of Dublin Burial Redcross co Wicklow

Send a link <>G> all I found were Ireland, Births and Baptisms, 1620-1911 Name: Dorothea Higginson Gender: Female Baptism Date: 18 Dec 1825 Baptism Place: Saint Nicholas Within, Dublin, Dublin, Ireland Father's Name: Samuel Higginson Mother's Name: Eleanor FHL Film Number: 990093 Name: Eleanor Higginson Gender: Female Baptism Date: 21 Apr 1822 Baptism Place: Saint Nicholas Within, Dublin, Dublin, Ireland Father's Name: Samuel Higginson Mother's Name: Eleanor FHL Film Number: 990093 Name: Michael Higginson Gender: Male Baptism Date: 12 Feb 1819 Baptism Place: Saint Nicholas Within, Dublin, Dublin, Ireland Father's Name: Samuel Higginson Mother's Name: Ellen FHL Film Number: 990093 Name: Samuel Higginson Residence Place: Nicholas Street Age at Death: 64 Death Date: abt 1830 Burial Date: 7 Nov 1830 Burial Place: St. Nicholas Without, Dublin, Ireland URL: http://churchrecords.irishgene... This record is not from Ancestry and will open in a new window. You may need to search for the record when the web page opens. For more information on web records, click here. Eliz On Fri, Aug 24, 2012 at 8:37 PM, Valerie B Garton <vbgarton@optusnet.com.au> wrote: > D. A. Chart. Marriage Entries from the Registers of the Parishes of St. > Andrew, St. Anne, St. Auden, & St. Bride (Dublin), 1632-1800. Exeter and > London: William Pollard & Co. Ltd., 1913. 185 pages. > > I am looking for the details of the marriage of Samuel HIGGINSON on 1 May > 1787 at St Andrew's Church Dublin. > > The above contains marriages that are not in the church registers but found > in parochial papers - ancestry.com > > Cheers from Valerie in sunny Sydney > > > > > ****************************** > Topic: A mailing list for anyone with a genealogical interest in County Dublin, Ireland and the City of Dublin. > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRL-DUBLIN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I have learned that the Gibtons of Dublin intermarried with the Gunnings in the 1700. The Gunnings were a somewhat more prominent Anglo-Irish gentry family than the Gibtons. Two young Gunning women who lived around that time were so beautiful they went on to become (by marriage) a duchess and a countess, respectively, in England, and the duchess was made a baroness in her own right. How I know the Gibtons intermarried with the Gunnings is that one Robert Gibton is described in various probate records as the son-in-law of John Gunning and the nephew (probably nephew-in-law) of Robert Gunning the Elder. However, despite a plethora of records reflecting Gibton marriages, I have not found one marriage record showing that a Gibton married a Gunning, therefore, I think the daughter of John Gunning that Robert Gibton married was probably born out of wedlock. Later on, the Gunning-connected wing of the Gibton family got into legal disputes with the Gunnings and took out an injunction against them. If anyone has any information about who in the Gunning family Robert Gibton married and what the legal disputes were about, I'd be indebted to you. Furthermore, if anyone knows whether the arrest of a Robert Gibton in the 1700s for making threats to burn down someone's house was connected with the Gunning dispute, I'd be pleased about that too!

In the midst of my gigantonormous Gibson hunt, I found out that lots of people from Yorkshire emigrated to Nova Scotia, and I saw the name beard in old Yorkshire records. > From: cara_links@bigpond.com > To: irl-dublin@rootsweb.com > Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2012 11:32:10 +1000 > Subject: Re: [IRL-DUBLIN] James Beard- Edward > > Beard Edward 06-Feb-1864 At Brooklyn, U.S., on the 18th ultimo, Edward > Beard, a native of county Antrim, in the 27th year of his age. > > > > > Still need to know if the spelling Baird is of interest as well. > > Cara > > ****************************** > > ****************************** > Topic: A mailing list for anyone with a genealogical interest in County Dublin, Ireland and the City of Dublin. > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRL-DUBLIN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Could someone please let me know, if the early burials say from 1800 onwards, would the dead have been buried in a church yard or would they have been buried in a cemetery in Dublin, and if in Dublin, would the grave be in areas, like Roman Catholic or Church of England etc? Are the cemeteries or burial areas on line please? Here in New Zealand, the local burials from 1866s were in a cemetery, but it various from town to town or city to city. some towns have Cemeteries.. I know before the first cemetery was built, the locals buried the dead on their property, some people had a private cemetery on their land as well.. So much can be learn by reading a headstone, so they are worth searching for! I am always interested in my maiden name, PENTONY. I would love a trip to Eire and trace my roots.. Thank you Adele Clareville Taphophile (ah Taphophile means someone interested in headstones)

Beard Edward 06-Feb-1864 At Brooklyn, U.S., on the 18th ultimo, Edward Beard, a native of county Antrim, in the 27th year of his age. Still need to know if the spelling Baird is of interest as well. Cara ******************************

Would you be interested in the spelling BAIRD? Cara