Hello List, In my Dec. 12, 2012, post titled "COI and RC practices re: when to baptize," I listed birth and baptism dates of an admittedly very small sample of children baptized in Church of Ireland Dublin St. Mary Church between 1848 and 1860. Here I give similar information from another small sample, this time eleven children baptized in Roman Catholic Kingstown/Dun Laoghaire Church of St. Michael between 1830 and 1885. bir 1830 Nov 23, bap Nov 23 (Thomas Kelly, son of Luke & Julia Kelly of Dunleary (sic))* " bir 1832 Jun 11, bap Jun 11 (Margaret White, dau of Patrick & Bridget White of Killiney)* "" bir 1833 Mar 31, bap Mar 31 (Thomas Kelly, son of Henry & Rose Kelly of Dunleary (sic))* bir 1862 Jul 12, bap Jul 20 (Andrew-2 Plunkett, son of Andrew-1 Plunkett & Margaret White of Kingstown)* bir 1863 Jun 4, bap Jul 3 (Mary Kelly, dau of Thomas Kelly & Julia O'Halloran of Kingstown)* bir 1863 Dec 19, bap Dec 21 (Andrew-3 Plunkett, son of Andrew Plunkett-1 & Margaret White of Kingstown)** bir 1867 Feb 5, bap Feb 8 (Margaret Plunkett, dau of Andrew-1 Plunkett & Margaret White of Kingstown Ave.)** bir 1868 Nov 4, bap Nov 8 (William Plunkett, son of Andrew-1 Plunkett & Margaret White of Patrick St. Kingstown)** bir 1869 Mar 17, bap Mar 21 (Patrick Kelly, son of Thomas Kelly & Julia O'Halloran of Mounttown)** bir 1873 Jan 24, bap Jan 24 (George Plunkett, son of Andrew-1 Plunkett & Margaret White of Cross Ave. Kingstown)** bir 1885 Sep 27, bap Sep 28 (Andrew-4 Plunkett, son of Andrew-3 Plunkett & Mary Kelly)* * Extract from the baptismal register of Kingstown/Dun Laoghaire Church of St. Michael, prepared for me by a parish priest. ** Reported in an email from Irish researcher Annette McDonnell, who viewed the parish register at the NLI. " IMPORTANT NOTE: I do NOT yet know whether this is the Thomas Kelly who with my Julia O'Halloran bore Mary Kelly who married Andrew-3 Plunkett. "" IMPORTANT NOTE: I do NOT yet know whether this is the Margaret White who with my Andrew-1 Plunkett bore Andrew-2, Andrew-3, Margaret, Patrick, & George Plunkett. In a following post, I'll summarize the intervals between birth and baptism for the two churches. PJ

Maggie, On the baptism record of Joseph Simon and Patrick James there is a comment in the last column for both the boys which is written in Latin and smudged so is almost unreadable but I can see........ Mater Neocon???? and Pater Proliate...Bapt ....sub condition. Unfortunately I don't read Latin and the rest is black & unreadable. This, however, probably is some sort of explanation. Marg >From the Beautiful British Columbia Cariboo Region, Canada ----- Original Message ----- From: "Margaret Doyle" <johnmaggie11@yahoo.co.uk> Hi Margaret, strange allright how they baptised 3 children + left one out. Maybe that's all they could manage to carry? Maybe the Church was overbooked but most likely would be be that he was in hospital when the others were being christened. Maggie

Hi Pj, I can only speak for my experience with my father's Irish Catholic family; children were baptised as soon as practical after birth because my Grandmother believed that if they died unbaptised the baby would be stuck in purgatory forever. I was born 12 weeks prematurely 48 years ago & a Priest was sent into to baptise me without even asking my mother what my name was to be! No visitors were allowed, but that didn't stop the baptism. >From Jenny My Family History Website: Subject: [IRL-DUBLIN] COI and RC practices re: when to baptize Hello all, Can anyone give me information about the RC and COI practices related to baptisms. I've been told that the RC practice was to baptize the child as soon after birth as possible. Is that true? Why would parents on occasion wait several months to have a child baptized (e.g., illness, distance from church, lack of money?)? Did the RC and COI practices differ? PJ

Maggie and all others,..... I'll give you the sequence of events in this POOLE family. Maria born in March 1856 and bap in April 1856 Edward born in June 1858 and bap in July 1858 Charles Joseph born in July 1862 and bap in Aug 1862 Joseph Simon born July 1863 and not bap until 28 October 1870 **** Hester born July 1864 and bap Sept 1864 Frederick William born Sept 1866 and bap November 1866 Patrick James born Sept 1867 and bap 28 Oct 1870 ******** Margaret Mary born April 1869 and bap July 1870 Mary Esther born Aug 1870 and bap 28 Oct 1870********* .....and another 5 children baptised within months of their birth. It seems to me they forgot to baptise Joseph Simon and why they wouldn't have baptised him, Patrick and Margaret Mary and Mary Esther on the same day beats me. When they baptised Margaret Mary in July 1870 Joseph Simon and Patrick hadn't been baptised yet. Where were their heads?? Marg >From the Beautiful British Columbia Cariboo Region, Canada ----- Original Message ----- From: "Margaret Doyle" <johnmaggie11@yahoo.co.uk> My Dad was named John Joseph while his only brother was named Joseph John. Does that help? Maggie On 13 Dec 2012, at 20:42, "Margaret Cambridge" <talktomarg@shaw.ca> wrote: I probably misunderstood your reply as you said 'same name' and one died and the other was born but these were both sons who lived. I'm confused with this anyway so a little more confusion doesn't matter. Marg >From the Beautiful British Columbia Cariboo Region, Canada ----- Original Message ----- From: <hildanic@aol.com> That's what I'm saying. The birth of one in 1863 & the baptism of the other in 1879. Confused now! :-) Hilda

Perhaps noted in the church of both the mother and father, if different? Just a thought. -----Original Message----- From: irl-dublin-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:irl-dublin-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Margaret Cambridge Sent: Thursday, December 13, 2012 1:33 PM To: irl-dublin@rootsweb.com Subject: [IRL-DUBLIN] COI and RC practices re: when to baptize <snip> I also have numerous babies baptised in the RC and COI in the same month which puzzles me. Marg

Hello List, In my Dec. 12, 2012, post titled "COI and RC practices re: when to baptize," I listed birth and baptism dates of an admittedly very small sample of children baptized in Church of Ireland Dublin St. Mary Church between 1848 and 1860. Here I give similar information from another small sample, this time of eleven children baptized in Roman Catholic Kingstown/Dun Laoghaire Church of St. Michael between 1830 and 1885. bir 1830 Nov 23, bap Nov 23 (Thomas Kelly, son of Luke & Julia Kelly of Dunleary (sic))* " bir 1832 Jun 11, bap Jun 11 (Margaret White, dau of Patrick & Bridget White of Killiney)* "" bir 1833 Mar 31, bap Mar 31 (Thomas Kelly, son of Henry & Rose Kelly of Dunleary (sic))* bir 1862 Jul 12, bap Jul 20 (Andrew-2 Plunkett, son of Andrew-1 Plunkett & Margaret White of Kingstown)* bir 1863 Jun 4, bap Jul 3 (Mary Kelly, dau of Thomas Kelly & Julia O'Halloran of Kingstown)* bir 1863 Dec 19, bap Dec 21 (Andrew-3 Plunkett, son of Andrew Plunkett-1 & Margaret White of Kingstown)** bir 1867 Feb 5, bap Feb 8 (Margaret Plunkett, dau of Andrew-1 Plunkett & Margaret White of Kingstown Ave.)** bir 1868 Nov 4, bap Nov 8 (William Plunkett, son of Andrew-1 Plunkett & Margaret White of Patrick St. Kingstown)** bir 1869 Mar 17, bap Mar 21 (Patrick Kelly, son of Thomas Kelly & Julia O'Halloran of Mounttown)** bir 1873 Jan 24, bap Jan 24 (George Plunkett, son of Andrew-1 Plunkett & Margaret White of Cross Ave. Kingstown)** bir 1885 Sep 27, bap Sep 28 (Andrew-4 Plunkett, son of Andrew-3 Plunkett & Mary Kelly)* * Extract from the baptismal register of Kingstown/Dun Laoghaire Church of St. Michael, prepared for me by a parish priest. ** Reported in an email from Irish researcher Annette McDonnell, who viewed the parish register at the NLI. " IMPORTANT NOTE: I do NOT yet know whether this is the Thomas Kelly who with my Julia O'Halloran bore Mary Kelly who married Andrew-3 Plunkett. "" IMPORTANT NOTE: I do NOT yet know whether this is the Margaret White who with my Andrew-1 Plunkett bore Andrew-2, Andrew-3, Margaret, Patrick, & George Plunkett. In a following post, I'll summarize the intervals between birth and baptism for the two churches. PJ

That's what I'm saying. The birth of one in 1863 & the baptism of the other in 1879. Confused now! :-) Hilda

I probably misunderstood your reply as you said 'same name' and one died and the other was born but these were both sons who lived. I'm confused with this anyway so a little more confusion doesn't matter. Marg >From the Beautiful British Columbia Cariboo Region, Canada ----- Original Message ----- From: <hildanic@aol.com> That's what I'm saying. The birth of one in 1863 & the baptism of the other in 1879. Confused now! :-) Hilda

Margaret, I would suggest that your 1863 birth & 1870 baptism are of two different children. Same names, but I'd bet the first one died, & another was born & given that name. Hilda

Hi Hilda, Thanks for responding. But........ Nope........they were 2 different children. Joseph Simon and Patrick James Poole with siblings Hester and Frederick William born and baptised in between. Marg >From the Beautiful British Columbia Cariboo Region, Canada ----- Original Message ----- From: <hildanic@aol.com> Margaret, I would suggest that your 1863 birth & 1870 baptism are of two different children. Same names, but I'd bet the first one died, & another was born & given that name. Hilda

This puzzles me too PJ. I have baptisms from birthday up to 7 years after birth and some of these are in the same family, living in the same area so distance from the church shouldn't be an issue. Also, these families seem to be practicing RC's so they shouldn't have had to take catechism classes or whatever is required which would delay the baptism. In one family I wondered if they just forgot whether they had had the infant baptised as I have a child born in 1863 who was baptised in 1870 with a brother who was born in 1867. There had been 2 other children baptised in between those years. So it seems they just forgot. I also have numerous babies baptised in the RC and COI in the same month which puzzles me. Maybe some things we will never know for sure. Marg >From the Beautiful British Columbia Cariboo Region, Canada ----- Original Message ----- From: <pjsalis@hal-pc.org> Hello all, Can anyone give me information about the RC and COI practices related to baptisms. I've been told that the RC practice was to baptize the child as soon after birth as possible. Is that true? Why would parents on occasion wait several months to have a child baptized (e.g., illness, distance from church, lack of money?)? Did the RC and COI practices differ?

Hello all, Can anyone give me information about the RC and COI practices related to baptisms. I've been told that the RC practice was to baptize the child as soon after birth as possible. Is that true? Why would parents on occasion wait several months to have a child baptized (e.g., illness, distance from church, lack of money?)? Did the RC and COI practices differ? Here are some Dublin COI data for the children of Gardiner Curtis and Catherine Hawkins-Curtis (churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie). I include only the children for whom I have both birth and baptism dates. Church of Ireland baptisms bir 1848 Aug 22, bap Sep 27 (Thomas) bir 1850 Sep 26, bap Nov 6 (James William) bir 1853 Jan 9, bap Apr 1 (Catharine Maria) bir 1854 Aug 19, bap Oct 27 (William Joseph) bir 1857 Feb 6, bap Mar 18 (Susan) bir 1859 Apr 21, bap Aug 10 (Edward Henry) bir 1860 Nov 15, bap 1861 Jan 25 (Martha Elizabeth) This child was also baptized RC three days later on 1861 Jan 28. PJ

Hello all, Recently some of you discussed the repeated use of a child's forename by a husband and wife. I have a two-generation example of the repeated use of a son's forename. It caused a lot of confusion on my part until I had enough records and advice to clear things up. It involves my Kingstown/Dun Laoghaire Plunkett ancestors. Andrew-1 Plunkett and Margaret White son Andrew-2 born 1862* / no death record yet found son Andrew-3 born 1863** Andrew-3 and Mary Kelly son Andrew-4 born 1885*** / died 1886 age 4 mo of convulsions*** son Thomas born 1887*** daughter Julia born 1888*** (Her father Andrew-3 died 2+ weeks later***) Mary Kelly's parents were Thomas Kelly and Julia O'Halloran.* Andrew-3 and Mary seem to have given up on using the forename Andrew and apparently switched to the Kelly forenames. Julia Plunkett did name her only son Andrew. * Extract from Kingstown St. Michael baptismal record by a parish priest ** Report of an Irish researcher's view of the Kingstown St. Michael baptismal record at the NLI *** General Register Office birth or death record PJ

I have access to The Freemans Journal via membership to NZ Soc of Genealogists. http://www.genealogy.org.nz/   Ordinary  $  84.00New memberships are NZ$84, Members living overseas also pay additional for airmail postage on six magazines. Australia and Pacific    $15.00     Rest of the World    $18.00  Australia and Pacific    $15.00     Rest of the World    $18.00 Australia /Pacific $15                   Rest of World   $18 Australia and Pacific    $15.00     Rest of the World    $18.00  Gale Newspapers There are now SIX online databases available. The 19th Century British Library Newspapers have increased by 22 more papers. New for members are the 19th Century UK periodicals and Illustrated London News. Online Newspapers Julie --- On Tue, 11/12/12, pjsalis@hal-pc.org <pjsalis@hal-pc.org> wrote: From: pjsalis@hal-pc.org <pjsalis@hal-pc.org> Subject: Re: [IRL-DUBLIN] Freeman's Journal 1878 death notice for CatherineCurtis nee Hawkins To: irl-dublin@rootsweb.com Date: Tuesday, 11, December, 2012, 4:42 AM Oh, Jennette, Eureka! Many, many thanks for your answer.  You've relieved one of my many genealogical itches. More questions: How do you have access to the Freeman's Journal archives? Did you see no mention of "witness Joseph Curtis age 12, reported by Thomas Curtis"? Thanks again. PJ > Hi PJ > In the Freeman's Journal dated Friday 12 Apr 1878 > CURTIS Apr 10 at her residence 107 Great Britain St of chronic bronchitis > Catherine relict of Gardiner > Curtis of Abbey St in her 56 year. Funeral will leave for Drumcondra > Church > yard at 11 o'clock > tomorrow (Saturday) morning. > > Hope that helps some. > Jennette > >> >> Hello All, >> >> I've been led to believe that "Catherine Curtis, nee Hawkins" "relict of >> Gardiner Curtis" "died 1878" "at 170,Grt Britain Street, witness Joseph >> Curtis age 12, reported by Thomas Curtis."  The source is said to be the >> Freeman's Journal. >> >> I want to verify the information and the source. ****************************** Topic: A mailing list for anyone with a genealogical interest in County Dublin, Ireland and the City of Dublin. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRL-DUBLIN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hello, As many of you know, I have been searching for a long time to identify my Rawlins family from Cork and Dublin. My great great grandfather, Samuel Rawlins, migrated from Ireland to the US in 1867, In recent years, I had widened my search because I could find nothing definitive. Just before Thanksgiving, a cousin found old photographs that we had given up for lost. These are pictures from the 1860s from Dublin and Cork of my Samuel Rawlins' family. Two were taken at Hunter in Cork and two at Chancellor. The two from Chancellor were one of Samuel's sister Rebecca, which is inscribed on the back "to my brother Samuel, from Rebecca Rawlyns" and another which is inscribed "Auntie H,M. Invararity". Others were mamma and father. Finally we have one that just says Lizzie or Jennie and another with the inscription: Charles R. Auntie Harriet Maria Rawlins Inverarity died in Clonfadda in 1870. She was 64 though another record states that she might have bee a little younger. She was the daughter of a Dr. Thomas Rawlins who married Jane Furys in Cork in 1804, Clearly Dr. Thomas Rawlins had ties throughout the British Isles because Harriet married in Scotland but came back to Ireland after she was widowed. Her wedding announcement to James Inverarity was produced in the Irish papers, but she was not named. She was described as the only daughter of Dr. Thomas Rawlins. We believe Dr. Rawlins was also the father of George Henry Rawlins, who lived in Bantry, Innishannon and Springmount, and Dr.Thomas Richard Rawlilns. I have studied the family of George Henry Rawlins, as my grandfather talked about an uncle or brother who was well established in Cork named George. We have identified his children. Dr. Thomas Richard Rawlins, however, is more elusive. He seems to have lived in both Cork City,in Springmount and in Dublin. He also lived in Liverpool for a time. He may have even spent time in Scotland and/or in India. At this point he may be the likely father of Samuel and Rebecca Rawlins. One record we do have for Dr. Thomas Rawlins jr. of Springmount is the notice of his marriage in April of 1866 to Ellen Colgan in Dublin. They were both in their mid fifties and the union produced no children. Ellen died as a widow in 1886 at the age of 74. Her obituary was published in the NYC papers. Samuel Rawlins had left for the US a year after this marriage and had died in the US in 1884. I have no idea if the obit was published for his benefit. We also know that a Frederick John Rawlins lived in Springmount but was the son of Reverend Christopher Rawlins of Middlesex. Perhaps these Rawlins families were all related in some way, but it has not been proven. This is still a tangled web, but, thanks to the pictures, at least we know what we need to untangle!! Any thoughts or ideas are much appreciated. Cara, as always, I look forward to your reflection. This does prove that perseverance pays off. Regards to all Bev W

Hi PJ in Australia you can apply for a National Australia Library card for free. I didn't see anything on Joseph Curtis, I did check in the news items part. What i sent you was in the death notices. Jennette > > Oh, Jennette, Eureka! > > Many, many thanks for your answer. You've relieved one of my many > genealogical itches. > > More questions: > > How do you have access to the Freeman's Journal archives? > > Did you see no mention of "witness Joseph Curtis age 12, reported by > Thomas Curtis"? > > Thanks again. > PJ >

Hi PJ Check with your library service or if you are a member of an institution such as a university to see if they have access to the Gale databases Among them is the 19th Century Newspapers which has :- Freeman's Journal Audience: General Publication Format: Newspaper Full-Text Coverage: Jan 01, 1820 - Sep 29, 1900 Frequency: Daily Language: English Place of Publication: Dublin, Ireland Available Issues: 20679 For others with an interest, many County libraries in the UK have access, as do all Australian residents via their National Library of Australia (as opposed to the State libraries who may or may not also have access) Then there is the pay per view http://www.britishnewspaperarchive.co.uk/ (you will get 15 credits free for registering) There is now also access via findmypast.co.uk pay per view or subscription (although ridiculously, not with the so called worldwide subscription though) Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) > > I know that there's a pay-for-view site for access to the Journal, and the > LDS Library has some digital records that are accessible only from the LDS > Library in Salt Lake City. Does anyone know a less expensive way to > search the Freeman Journal's archives? > > Thanks for any advice. > > *familysearch.org > ** numerous children's baptisms at churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie > > PJ, in Texas

Hi PJ In the Freeman's Journal dated Friday 12 Apr 1878 CURTIS Apr 10 at her residence 107 Great Britain St of chronic bronchitis Catherine relict of Gardiner Curtis of Abbey St in her 56 year. Funeral will leave for Drumcondra Church yard at 11 o'clock tomorrow (Saturday) morning. Hope that helps some. Jennette > > Hello All, > > I'm researching the Dublin family of Gardiner Curtis (b abt 1816, d 1874*) > and his wife Catherine Hawkins.** > > I've been led to believe that "Catherine Curtis, nee Hawkins" "relict of > Gardiner Curtis" "died 1878" "at 170,Grt Britain Street, witness Joseph > Curtis age 12, reported by Thomas Curtis." The source is said to be the > Freeman's Journal. > > I want to verify the information and the source. > > My Gardiner and Catherine had sons Thomas and William Joseph (in addition > to nine other known children). A discordant fact is that their William > Joseph was born and baptized in 1854 at Dublin COI St. Mary,** which would > make him age 24 in 1878. One explanation might be an error in the > Journal's notice. Another might be an error by my informant. Still > another might be that this is not the particular Catherine whom I'm > researching, though to me that's doubtful. > > I know that there's a pay-for-view site for access to the Journal, and the > LDS Library has some digital records that are accessible only from the LDS > Library in Salt Lake City. Does anyone know a less expensive way to > search the Freeman Journal's archives? > > Thanks for any advice. > > *familysearch.org > ** numerous children's baptisms at churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie > > PJ, in Texas > > > ****************************** > Topic: A mailing list for anyone with a genealogical interest in County > Dublin, Ireland and the City of Dublin. > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > IRL-DUBLIN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

John I also have found this naming pattern in my Irish research and also in some of the English families. Until in my early days of researching it totally confused me then discovered how it was done. Patrick, was used in this way, also I had a Minnie A, and a Minnie B. Same pattern with a Mary (but the parents just named them without any clues Sometimes have seen a second child of a name died at about 3 months and the next child with the same name given if of the same sex. They had an answer to that as well. If the first born was a male child named say Rupert, and the next child was a female they tried to continue the naming pattern by naming the poor little girl Rupertina. This was mainly in my Scottish research but could have been elsewhere as well. Paddy ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Troy" <jptroy@hotmail.com> To: <irl-dublin@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, December 10, 2012 1:04 PM Subject: Re: [IRL-DUBLIN] Freeman's Journal 1878 death notice for Catherine Curtis nee Hawkins > > There is another possible explanation. Frequently, when a child died > another subsequent child was given the same name. Have seen this many > times in my own family. Would a child of 12 be used as a witness? > Cheers, John. > > Date: Sun, 9 Dec 2012 19:47:27 -0600 >> From: pjsalis@hal-pc.org >> To: IRL-DUBLIN@rootsweb.com >> Subject: [IRL-DUBLIN] Freeman's Journal 1878 death notice for Catherine >> Curtis nee Hawkins >> >> >> Hello All, >> >> I'm researching the Dublin family of Gardiner Curtis (b abt 1816, d >> 1874*) >> and his wife Catherine Hawkins.** >> ----- No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 2013.0.2793 / Virus Database: 2634/5946 - Release Date: 12/08/12

Hi PJ, Is it possible that they had a son named Joseph in addition to using Joseph as a second name for William? I have seen this in my Anglo-Irish families many times. >From Jenny My Family History Website: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~becher/index.htm -----Original Message----- From: pjsalis@hal-pc.org Sent: Monday, December 10, 2012 12:47 PM To: Dublin list Subject: [IRL-DUBLIN] Freeman's Journal 1878 death notice for CatherineCurtis nee Hawkins Hello All, I'm researching the Dublin family of Gardiner Curtis (b abt 1816, d 1874*) and his wife Catherine Hawkins.** I've been led to believe that "Catherine Curtis, nee Hawkins" "relict of Gardiner Curtis" "died 1878" "at 170,Grt Britain Street, witness Joseph Curtis age 12, reported by Thomas Curtis." The source is said to be the Freeman's Journal. I want to verify the information and the source. My Gardiner and Catherine had sons Thomas and William Joseph (in addition to nine other known children). A discordant fact is that their William Joseph was born and baptized in 1854 at Dublin COI St. Mary,** which would make him age 24 in 1878. One explanation might be an error in the Journal's notice. Another might be an error by my informant. Still another might be that this is not the particular Catherine whom I'm researching, though to me that's doubtful. I know that there's a pay-for-view site for access to the Journal, and the LDS Library has some digital records that are accessible only from the LDS Library in Salt Lake City. Does anyone know a less expensive way to search the Freeman Journal's archives? Thanks for any advice. *familysearch.org ** numerous children's baptisms at churchrecords.irishgenealogy.ie PJ, in Texas ****************************** Topic: A mailing list for anyone with a genealogical interest in County Dublin, Ireland and the City of Dublin. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRL-DUBLIN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message