Sorry Maggie you seem to be placing an emphasis for no great reason A Railway carriage would be coach built ie made by hand by a coach builder In other words a coach builder is a carriage builder Neither are joiners in the trade sense Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) > The first train,( a steam train) in Dublin ran in 1834 from the City to > Kingstown Harbour, now Dun Laoghaire. > The trains were made by CARRAIGE builders, not coach builders. > Maggie

The first train,( a steam train) in Dublin ran in 1834 from the City to Kingstown Harbour, now Dun Laoghaire. The trains were made by CARRAIGE builders, not coach builders. Maggie

Hi Helen You are quite right in that coachbuilders had to change with the times They went from making carriages and wagons to railway carriages and then to cars and commercial vehicles The basic principles are the same Some high end vehicle manufacturers still use coachbuilders, such as Rolls Royce, Bentley etc but they are also used in the manufacture of mobile homes, caravans and many of the utility type vehicles such as some ambulances, fire brigade vehicles etc Anywhere where there is a need for single or short runs of a given vehicle and where it would be to expensive to set up full factory runs for production I would put the coachbuilder somewhat above the joiner as far as trades are concerned Nivard Ovington in Cornwall (UK) > Hi, > > My 2x Gt. G'Father was a Coachbuilder and I was given to understand that > with the coming of the railways they built railway carriages. > > If this is wrong, I would love one of the knowledgeable members to correct > me. > > Helen

Colette The Irish either wrote eloquently and flowery or very brief and in this case Coach and Coach harness makers simply means that they were Coach Makers as well as others who were coach harness makers............. Guilds were mutual benefit associations which flourished in the towns and cities of Western Europe from the 11th Century. There were four types of guilds The Guild of Merchant or as we would say the Merchant of Guilds which was the most important guild as it was responsible for the regulation of commerce Craft Guilds also known as trade guilds ( which covers your question) were formed to to set standards of workmanship and to reach apprentices the mysteries ( metier) of their craft Which is as it is today, if you were thought good enough to enter into an apprecticeship you then were admitted:- Thirdly there is the Religious guilds which were created for the spiritual well being of members ( not to be mistaken with people joining the church to become religious leaders) Fourth were the Military Guilds they were formed to assist the armies in times of crisis in wars ( they sure would have been used a lot) The Guild system was licences under a charter issued to Dublin by Prince John in 1192 and the city was then dominated by its 25 trade and craft guilds until 1841. There were also 11 Religious Guilds and 2 military guilds the latter being created in the 15th century as short term response to attacks on the Pale. Today only the Goldsmiths guild is the only one that still exists. Halls that they used "Tailors Hall and Merchants' Hall are the only visible reminders of the other guilds. Guilds as they were known passed into modern time, and trade unions as you should know them to day began to play a modern part in there place in history. ( which I will if allowed go into later) Unfortunately or fortunately however you view this situation it appears that a lot of paperwork pertaining to these guilds may be housed in UK. Henry Guinnness wrote about the Dublin Trade Guilds in the R.S.A.I ( Journal of the Royal Society of Antiquaries of Ireland - Dublin 1950) Also Thomas P O'Nolan wrote on the Origins and development of guilds and Trade Unions as they were to become known as in the I.E.R.XXX1 4th series ( March 1912) pages 247-264) IER=Irish Ecclesiastical Records of which there are 171 Volumes on Dublin 1864-1968 5 - Order from the Deputy Earl Marshal instructing the guild to depict coronets correctly on coaches 1862 ( GO M.S. 17, 0062-4). Genealogy Office Dublin Library. The Genealogical Office is located in 2, Kildare Street, Dublin 2, not far from the National Library. The records held here mainly relate to genealogical manuscripts, pedigrees and heraldic coats of arms of various aristocratic and wealthy families and individuals. Cheers Cara I use BullGuard Spamfilter to keep my inbox clean. It is completely free: www.bullguard.com/freespamfilter

John, Go to _www.google.ie_ (http://www.google.ie) Enter his name or similar words and do an Advanced Search. Good Luck! Joan

John, Go to _www.google.ie_ (http://www.google.ie) Enter Guilds of Ireland or similar words and do an Advanced Search. Good Luck! Joan

Hi, My 2x Gt. G'Father was a Coachbuilder and I was given to understand that with the coming of the railways they built railway carriages. If this is wrong, I would love one of the knowledgeable members to correct me. Helen [email protected] > Message: 3 > Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 21:44:31 -0400 > From: Eliz Hanebury <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [IRL-DUBLIN] Coachbuilders > > > <[email protected]> wrote: > > Hi Colette, Coachbuilders were actually like joiners are today. They > built traps ( open family transport), carriages etc, all pulled by horses. > One horse per trap, two horses per carriage, 4 horses for 1st class > citizens, who would take the family to the shops. The Guild was akin to a > union. Pay to join + only accesable to Protestants plus a verified trade. > > Harnessmakers were a different trade alltogether. > > A harnessmaker was just that + usually had a small shop akin to a booth > newsagent today. > > Blacksmiths had one labourer or Tboy (because tea-making was in his job > description). He held the horses foot when the smith hooved it. He had his > business in a garage-like shop. > > If you think of what a garage looks like at the side of a house, halve > it, take away the shutters+the house, of course. Then you have a > Blacksmith's Forge. > > Maggie >

Sorry, should have changed the subject line. Now correct. Cheers, John > Hi Cara > > How can I find out if there is any record of Archbishop John Thomas Troy's family held at the Dublin Library? Hope to be in Dublin next year. Cheers, John Troy > > > > The Genealogical Office is located in 2, Kildare Street, Dublin 2, not far > > from the National Library. The records held here mainly relate to > > genealogical manuscripts, pedigrees and heraldic coats of arms of various > > aristocratic and wealthy families and individuals. > > > > Cheers > > Cara > > ****************************** > ATTENTION TO ALL:- Do any of you ever get to the bottom of this mail?, and do you remove the details that do not apply to your mail and change the SUBJECT LINE for best useage of ARCHIVED MATERIALS. > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Cara, is there a guild for carpenters and builders? Also do you know anything about the Scripture Readers Guild? Thanks Marion Sydney On Tue, Oct 19, 2010 at 7:21 AM, <[email protected]> wrote: > Cara, > > Any Guild info on Bricklayers/Masons? > > Thanks! > > Joan > ****************************** > ATTENTION TO ALL:- Do any of you ever get to the bottom of this mail?, and > do you remove the details that do not apply to your mail and change the > SUBJECT LINE for best useage of ARCHIVED MATERIALS. > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > -- Marion

Hi Cara How can I find out if there is any record of Archbishop John Thomas Troy's family held at the Dublin Library? Hope to be in Dublin next year. Cheers, John Troy > The Genealogical Office is located in 2, Kildare Street, Dublin 2, not far > from the National Library. The records held here mainly relate to > genealogical manuscripts, pedigrees and heraldic coats of arms of various > aristocratic and wealthy families and individuals. > > Cheers > Cara

Hi Cara, Any information on watchmakers / clockmakers and / or engineers? I guess there weren't any details of individual members or trainees..? Thanks Caroline -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of [email protected] Sent: 19 October 2010 01:07 To: [email protected] Subject: IRL-DUBLIN Digest, Vol 5, Issue 347 ******************************** 1- CHANGE THE SUBJECT LINE 2- REMOVE THE BULK OF THE MAIL-NO-ONE WANTS DOWNLOAD ENDLESS DIGEST MAILS OF NO INTEREST TO THEM. Message: 1 Date: Mon, 18 Oct 2010 21:57:20 +1100 From: "Cara_Links" <[email protected]> Subject: [IRL-DUBLIN] GUILDS DUBLIN To: <[email protected]> Message-ID: <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Saddlers, Upholders, Coach and Coach -Harnessmakers, Bridle-Cutter and Wheelwrights Patron Saint Virgin Mary All of the above named are within the same Guild. The guild of saddlers was founded in 1558 by charted issued by the Dublin City Assembly, where it as ninth in order of precedence. In 1667 the guild was re-incorporated by Royal Charter( 29 Charles 11) to include Upholders ( upholsterers) coach and-harnessmakers. The swearing in day was he feast of Annunciation ( 24th March) which was the day a new member was sworn into the guild, when they took the oath of supremacy and uniformity, usually it coincided with the feast day of the patron saint of the said guild. Guild colours in 1767 were crimsonk white and green. Meeting Places:- The guild met in Tailors Hall, Back lane from the mid 18th Century until 1841 RECORDS SURVIVING:- 1- Address to the Duke of Leinster 1767 ( RCB Library M.S. 509) 2- Book of Oaths c17167 ( NLI MS 81) 3-Bye Laws 1769 and 1792 ( NLI Ms 81) 4-Admission of Freemen 1776-1792 ( NLI MS 82) 5-Order from the Deputy Earl Marshal instructing the guild to depict coronets correctly on coaches 1862 ( GO M.S. 17, 0062-4) Transcripts Surviving:- Notes on the saddler's guild ( National Archives TA 1426) Now I woul also like to go back to the fact, that it was mentioned on the list that horses were a means of transport and it became a *push aside fact* well could I simply ask what did all the above people build or work towards, but creating things for horses. I rest my case that horses were a means of transport since the beginning of Dublin. Does anyone else need to know what other guilds information is available Cheers Cara I use BullGuard Spamfilter to keep my inbox clean. It is completely free: www.bullguard.com/freespamfilter Very interesting, Cara. I'm a bit confused about the "Coach and Coach -Harnessmakers" though - does that mean coach makers and coach harnessmakers? The reason I ask is that my grandfather (born c. 1865) and g-grandfather (born c. 1819-25) were carpenters/coach body builders. Also, did men have to become a member of the Guild to practice their trade, or were they invited to join? If invited to join, what criteria would they have had to meet? And finally, you mention this ... 5 - Order from the Deputy Earl Marshal instructing the guild to depict coronets correctly on coaches 1862 ( GO M.S. 17, 0062-4). Where are these records held, please? Regards Colette Hi Colette, Coachbuilders were actually like joiners are today. They built traps ( open family transport), carriages etc, all pulled by horses. One horse per trap, two horses per carriage, 4 horses for 1st class citizens, who would take the family to the shops. The Guild was akin to a union. Pay to join + only accesable to Protestants plus a verified trade. Harnessmakers were a different trade alltogether. A harnessmaker was just that + usually had a small shop akin to a booth newsagent today. Blacksmiths had one labourer or Tboy (because tea-making was in his job description). He held the horses foot when the smith hooved it. He had his business in a garage-like shop. If you think of what a garage looks like at the side of a house, halve it, take away the shutters+the house, of course. Then you have a Blacksmith's Forge. Maggie ------------------------------ Message: 8 Date: Tue, 19 Oct 2010 11:06:20 +1100 From: "Cara_Links" <[email protected]> Subject: [IRL-DUBLIN] FURTHER ON GUILDS To: <[email protected]> Message-ID: <[email protected]> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; reply-type=original Colette The Irish either wrote eloquently and flowery or very brief and in this case Coach and Coach harness makers simply means that they were Coach Makers as well as others who were coach harness makers............. Guilds were mutual benefit associations which flourished in the towns and cities of Western Europe from the 11th Century. There were four types of guilds The Guild of Merchant or as we would say the Merchant of Guilds which was the most important guild as it was responsible for the regulation of commerce Craft Guilds also known as trade guilds ( which covers your question) were formed to to set standards of workmanship and to reach apprentices the mysteries ( metier) of their craft Which is as it is today, if you were thought good enough to enter into an apprecticeship you then were admitted:- Thirdly there is the Religious guilds which were created for the spiritual well being of members ( not to be mistaken with people joining the church to become religious leaders) Fourth were the Military Guilds they were formed to assist the armies in times of crisis in wars ( they sure would have been used a lot) The Guild system was licences under a charter issued to Dublin by Prince John in 1192 and the city was then dominated by its 25 trade and craft guilds until 1841. There were also 11 Religious Guilds and 2 military guilds the latter being created in the 15th century as short term response to attacks on the Pale. Today only the Goldsmiths guild is the only one that still exists. Halls that they used "Tailors Hall and Merchants' Hall are the only visible reminders of the other guilds. Guilds as they were known passed into modern time, and trade unions as you should know them to day began to play a modern part in there place in history. ( which I will if allowed go into later) Unfortunately or fortunately however you view this situation it appears that a lot of paperwork pertaining to these guilds may be housed in UK. Henry Guinnness wrote about the Dublin Trade Guilds in the R.S.A.I ( Journal of the Royal Society of Antiquaries of Ireland - Dublin 1950) Also Thomas P O'Nolan wrote on the Origins and development of guilds and Trade Unions as they were to become known as in the I.E.R.XXX1 4th series ( March 1912) pages 247-264) IER=Irish Ecclesiastical Records of which there are 171 Volumes on Dublin 1864-1968 5 - Order from the Deputy Earl Marshal instructing the guild to depict coronets correctly on coaches 1862 ( GO M.S. 17, 0062-4). Genealogy Office Dublin Library. The Genealogical Office is located in 2, Kildare Street, Dublin 2, not far from the National Library. The records held here mainly relate to genealogical manuscripts, pedigrees and heraldic coats of arms of various aristocratic and wealthy families and individuals. Cheers Cara

I have been researching in Ireland for over 20years. I keep seeing on this site that there is a specific way to use this site and am still unable to figure it out. By now all of Ireland knows that I am researching the Joseph Holland family of Belfast. In all the 20+ years there has not been one person, except from England, that has said they might be remotely related to this family. I am at a dead end and not any results in even beginning to see a break. Had a uncle that died in Dublin 1916, his dau was living in Cork at time of his death-absolutely nothing else on him. Just musing and asking. Thanks for a reply of any. Shirley [email protected]

Hi Colette, Coachbuilders were actually like joiners are today. They built traps ( open family transport), carriages etc, all pulled by horses. One horse per trap, two horses per carriage, 4 horses for 1st class citizens, who would take the family to the shops. The Guild was akin to a union. Pay to join + only accesable to Protestants plus a verified trade. Harnessmakers were a different trade alltogether. A harnessmaker was just that + usually had a small shop akin to a booth newsagent today. Blacksmiths had one labourer or Tboy (because tea-making was in his job description). He held the horses foot when the smith hooved it. He had his business in a garage-like shop. If you think of what a garage looks like at the side of a house, halve it, take away the shutters+the house, of course. Then you have a Blacksmith's Forge. Maggie

I'm always interested in information on the Dublin Tailor Guild. If you find anything...Thanks, Cara! -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] To: [email protected] Sent: Mon, Oct 18, 2010 4:21 pm Subject: Re: [IRL-DUBLIN] GUILDS DUBLIN Cara, Any Guild info on Bricklayers/Masons? Thanks! Joan ****************************** ATTENTION TO ALL:- Do any of you ever get to the bottom of this mail?, and do you remove the details that do not apply to your mail and change the SUBJECT LINE for best useage of ARCHIVED MATERIALS. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Prerogative dated will of 1688 shows Henry Wade of Conybreny ( Sic) Co Meath esquire his wife being Joan widow of Henry Wade with a prerogative date of 1704 Then there is two Johns of same place Prerogative date 1- 1711 2-1735 But the only Robert that I can see in my data is Prerogative dated will 1800 Dublin a gentleman, But I could give you a patchwork quilt of Johns for Dublin along with many other names belonging to Wade family who all had last addreses in Dublin. I did remember I was given a new CD whilst in Ireland and this appears Robert Wade of Clonabreny ( sic) married Miss Leigh of Drogheda in the November of 1771 may well be the fore runners of your Robert, I have no idea .......... The Wentworth name was also as Bill has tried to say, linked to the name Fitzwilliam from Co Wicklow a landed gentry , who also had land in Meath ....which in turn was also Linked to the Brabazon name who in turn was Earl of Meath who was in and around the Bray area of Wicklow. Perhaps a Wade did marry a Wentworth creating the name .. Wade also being a corruption of Macquaid and has been found in all provinces since the 13th century. You have the search ahead of you to locate and find the marriage that puts the name in your family, good luck Just one other thing before I sign off, Have you placed this request on the Co Meath list to cover all your options? Cheers Cara I use BullGuard Spamfilter to keep my inbox clean. It is completely free: www.bullguard.com/freespamfilter

Very interesting, Cara. I'm a bit confused about the "Coach and Coach -Harnessmakers" though - does that mean coach makers and coach harnessmakers? The reason I ask is that my grandfather (born c. 1865) and g-grandfather (born c. 1819-25) were carpenters/coach body builders. Also, did men have to become a member of the Guild to practice their trade, or were they invited to join? If invited to join, what criteria would they have had to meet? And finally, you mention this ... 5 - Order from the Deputy Earl Marshal instructing the guild to depict coronets correctly on coaches 1862 ( GO M.S. 17, 0062-4). Where are these records held, please? Regards Colette

Saddlers, Upholders, Coach and Coach -Harnessmakers, Bridle-Cutter and Wheelwrights Patron Saint Virgin Mary All of the above named are within the same Guild. The guild of saddlers was founded in 1558 by charted issued by the Dublin City Assembly, where it as ninth in order of precedence. In 1667 the guild was re-incorporated by Royal Charter( 29 Charles 11) to include Upholders ( upholsterers) coach and-harnessmakers. The swearing in day was he feast of Annunciation ( 24th March) which was the day a new member was sworn into the guild, when they took the oath of supremacy and uniformity, usually it coincided with the feast day of the patron saint of the said guild. Guild colours in 1767 were crimsonk white and green. Meeting Places:- The guild met in Tailors Hall, Back lane from the mid 18th Century until 1841 RECORDS SURVIVING:- 1- Address to the Duke of Leinster 1767 ( RCB Library M.S. 509) 2- Book of Oaths c17167 ( NLI MS 81) 3-Bye Laws 1769 and 1792 ( NLI Ms 81) 4-Admission of Freemen 1776-1792 ( NLI MS 82) 5-Order from the Deputy Earl Marshal instructing the guild to depict coronets correctly on coaches 1862 ( GO M.S. 17, 0062-4) Transcripts Surviving:- Notes on the saddler's guild ( National Archives TA 1426) Now I woul also like to go back to the fact, that it was mentioned on the list that horses were a means of transport and it became a *push aside fact* well could I simply ask what did all the above people build or work towards, but creating things for horses. I rest my case that horses were a means of transport since the beginning of Dublin. Does anyone else need to know what other guilds information is available Cheers Cara I use BullGuard Spamfilter to keep my inbox clean. It is completely free: www.bullguard.com/freespamfilter

I love the description of the blacksmiths shop, not far from me in Pennsylvania there is an old blacksmiths shop - looks for all the world like a low two car garage <G> Eliz On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 at 8:01 PM, Margaret Doyle <[email protected]> wrote: > Hi Colette, Coachbuilders were actually like joiners are today. They built traps ( open family transport), carriages etc, all pulled by horses. One horse per trap, two horses per carriage, 4 horses for 1st class citizens, who would take the family to the shops. The Guild was akin to a union. Pay to join + only accesable to Protestants plus a verified trade. > Harnessmakers were a different trade alltogether. > A harnessmaker was just that + usually had a small shop akin to a booth newsagent today. > Blacksmiths had one labourer or Tboy (because tea-making was in his job description). He held the horses foot when the smith hooved it. He had his business in a garage-like shop. > If you think of what a garage looks like at the side of a house, halve it, take away the shutters+the house, of course. Then you have a Blacksmith's Forge. > Maggie > > > > ****************************** > ATTENTION TO ALL:- Do any of you ever get to the bottom of this mail?, and do you remove the details that do not apply to your mail and change the SUBJECT LINE  for best useage of ARCHIVED MATERIALS. > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

I got into this site by going to Google. One good turn led to another. Dublin City Council: Civil Records Births _http://www.dublincity.ie/RecreationandCulture/libraries/Heritage%20and%20Hi story/Family%20History/Pages/civil_records_births.aspx_ (http://www.dublincity.ie/RecreationandCulture/libraries/Heritage%20and%20History/Family%20Histo ry/Pages/civil_records_births.aspx) _http://www.dublincity.ie/RECREATIONANDCULTURE/LIBRARIES/Pages/DublinCityLib rary.aspx_ (http://www.dublincity.ie/RECREATIONANDCULTURE/LIBRARIES/Pages/DublinCityLibrary.aspx) _http://dublinheritage.ie/graveyards/browse.php_ (http://dublinheritage.ie/graveyards/browse.php) Follow directions ...

Cara, Any Guild info on Bricklayers/Masons? Thanks! Joan