----- Original Message ----- From: "padraigogealagain" <padraigogealagain@rogers.com> To: <irl-limerick@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, September 11, 2006 2:45 PM Subject: Re: [IRL-LIMERICK] The Arms of Irish Septs- An Explanation ( Pt.2-final) All you say, Mike, is probably true BUT I have the original letter that I received in reply to my queries, and the answer they gave is absolute in that there is NO authority ( the key word ) in Genealogy or Heraldry for the use of 'THE" as a descendant of a Clan chief - the letter doesn't say that the title is even recognised by the Chief Herald. Interesting though, how anyone can support direct line to a chief of Sept since the Celtic order began the beginning of its end after the 1601 battle of Kinsale that consequently led to the flight of many of the Earls ( a conferred English title, as you likely know). The great chief O'Neill later denounced it as did many other. Those who acquiesced to it were only ' feathering their own nests' and to heck with the other members of the tribal sept who had common rights under Brehon law to Sept territory. Its remarkable how they managed to have proof of descent considering the majority on these Lists are up against 'Brick Walls' trying to root to an ancestor in the 1850's, for example - let alone one who lived in the mid 17th. century. It has to be recognised that many of the Sept scribes doctored the genealogy of the chiefs at their banquet oral recitals. Many of the so-called Head of Clans debunked based on false genealogies. I wonder if you are referring to the title granted by The Clans of Ireland Office? See: http://www.doyle.com.au/chiefs.html for general information. There are many more, but I am trying to find one that helped debunk some contenders to Ancestral chiefs' titles. Finally, you state that Burke's General Armory 1884 is an English publication - Of course, it is, the Irish chiefs didn't have Arms. But are you referring to Kennedy's Book of Arms (1816) ? . .----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike O'Brien" <mike@obrienclan.com> > To: <irl-limerick@rootsweb.com>; <irl-clare@rootsweb.com>; > <Irl-cork@rootsweb.com>; <cotipperary@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Monday, September 11, 2006 12:09 PM > Subject: Re: [IRL-LIMERICK] The Arms of Irish Septs- An Explanation ( > Pt.2-final) > > > Just a short note for all. > 1. The term 'THE' before a name is the courtesy recognition of the senior > male bloodline descendent of the last de facto Chief of that family. The > term 'THE' is NOT a title, it is only a position recognized by the Chief > Herald's Office of Ireland and has no authority. My Chief, The O'Brien > has > inherited the position from his uncle and takes the responsibility of that > position very seriously. > 2. Burke's General Armory is a British arms record. The Irish Book of > Arms > is a separate publication. > 3. There is currently a Bill before the Irish Senate (Genealogy & > Heraldry > Bill, 2006) that will make the Chief Heralds Office an official government > office staffed by a civil servant with government authority over heraldry > in > Ireland. You can read the bill here: > (http://www.oireachtas.ie/viewdoc.asp?fn=/documents/bills28/bills/2006/2306/b2306s.pdf). > I have read the complete bill and can't wait for their approval. > > Mike > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "padraigogealagain" <padraigogealagain@rogers.com> > To: <irl-clare@rootsweb.com>; <irl-limerick@rootsweb.com>; > <Irl-cork@rootsweb.com>; <cotipperary@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2006 9:56 PM > Subject: [IRL-LIMERICK] The Arms of Irish Septs- An Explanation ( > Pt.2 -final) > > >> In my previous posting I gave excerpts froman URL about this,oft-times >> controversial subject regarding copyrighted works. >> >> Now I am transcribing the body of a reply that I received 12 February, >> 1997 from Genealogical Office, Dublin: >> >> Dear Padraig O'Gealagain, >> >> "Your request for information on the arms appropriate to Galligan and >> O'Quinn has been referred to me for attention. >> >> According to Burke "The General Armory", 1884, no arms are recorderd for >> either Galligan, Gilligan or McGilligan. I enclose extracts dealing with >> Quinn and O'Quinn and also accounts from Woulfe, Sloinnte Gaedheal is >> Gall >> (Irish names and surnames) and find the Galligan is a distinct name from >> Gilligan or Quinn and no arms have been found on record as being >> appropriateto Galligan. It would be possible to apply for a grant of arms >> to the Chief Herald. >> >> There is no authority for the use of "The" in Irish genealogy or >> Heraldry. >> The leaders in the Clan [sic] were known by their surname, O'Neill, >> O'Donnell. and MacCarthy, etc. >> >> In answer to your final query no person is entitled officially to bear >> arms except under the terms of a grant from the former Ulster Office or >> from the Chief Herald. >> >> Yours sincerely >> >> Eilish Ellis (Mrs) " >> >> **************************************** >> >> The reason for my enquiry to the Genealogical office was two-fold: 1). To >> check tjhe authenticity of a Coat of Arms blazon on a delicate pottery >> plate which my wife brought back to me as a gift, from an Irish visit, >> 2). to check the reference in O'Hart's genealogies where Giolagain was >> shown as number (I forget) in the line of Ir and from whom decended >> Gillgan, and #3) to check on the validness of certain persons claiming to >> be Heads of Serfs using the title "The O'Neill" etc., etc. >> >> So, the above letter transcription answered those questions. But the >> key-words in the Coats of Arms reference are "entitled officially". I >> take that to mean you can buy a Family Crest, hang it in your Rec-room or >> where ever, but using it in an official capacity, such as on your >> business >> or personal mail could invite a lawsuit from the official owner. >> >> >> ***** Reply to the LIST ONLY - Please! ***** >> ***** And, thanks for such consideration ***** >> >> Pádraig Mór, >> An Sean Gabhar >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> IRL-LIMERICK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > IRL-LIMERICK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >