Hi All I agree that the records should be freely available to anybody that wants to access them. county Clare is on par with some of Cork and many other counties in Ireland where we are denied the right to search the records for our families http://www.gopetition.com/petitions/county-clare-records.html Margaret ----- Original Message ----- From: "Patricia O'Shea" [email protected] To: <[email protected]> Sent: Monday, June 15, 2009 12:07 AM Subject: Re: Free availability of Irish Records > My point exactly John, and it's not just the Bishops unfortunately. > > Last year I visited a Heritage Centre in person - this particular centre > does not hold records of interest to me but I wanted to see how they > operated. > > We saw the files of transcripts lining the bookshelves around the room and > looked in one or two while waiting. > > When I asked about folks coming from around the world to search them, I > was > told that 'Oh no, they can't do that - we aren't set up for that'. This > despite the numerous tables around the room as well as computers. > > On further asking what would happen when these folk did arrive we were > told > that they would either be given the 'search form' to fill in and leave for > staff to research (cost about 65 Euro and you can do this online) or be > sent > down the road to the nearest computer cafe or library to do an 'online > search' just as we already can from our own homes. If they found a likely > entry and wished to view it they would pay of course - 5 Euro per view - > having already funded their trip to Ireland from wherever. > > [Note that searching the microfilms of church records in the National > Library or National Archives does not attract any fee at all. Also that > the > transcripts held by the Heritage Centres have been done largely using > public > money]. > > After this experience I found that the Ministry of Tourism also covers > Cultural matters and here is an extract from their Arts and Culture Plan > 2008 > Church Records Computerisation Project > > It is clear that Ireland needs a comprehensive set of genealogical records > on the Internet that can provide a motivation for potential overseas > visitors, can enable people living in Ireland to carry out family and > social > research. It is with this in mind that the ongoing work on the Church > Records Computerisation Project assumes a major importance from a tourism > and cultural perspective. > > In time, this project will be coupled with the Census Digitization work of > the National Archives to create an integrated database of social and > genealogical history for Ireland. [end] > > So the powers that be are aware of the issue but there is no 'action' in > the > plan to go with this statement. I have written to the Department seeking > an > update on this matter and will post any response I receive. > > Regards, Patsy - New Zealand > > Sent: Monday, June 15, 2009 7:58 AM > Subject: Re: Free availability of Irish Records > > >> Trish >> I agree with you 1000%! If we could identify these parcels of origin to >> walk >> upon we would not be alone. How many in your family would make the exact >> same trek? I will answer for mine, MANY. As it is, they stay home, >> waiting >> for a place to go. My goal is to deliver that place within their >> lifetimes, >> that place they are so proud of but don't know. Too bad for those rural >> places in west Cork that we originate that could really use the business. >> In September, I will visit my German homeland for a bicycle tour because >> they make this information available and they are not afraid to share. My >> towns in Germany are very rural and still 1000 residents max. Some are as >> few as 10 houses. If Germany can do it, why can't the Irish? I have >> German >> Lutheran and Catholic. It is all available. >> My mother is a Buckley and the Bishop is a Buckley just to irk me some >> more. >> >> I have zero plans to go Ireland any time soon until I have an origin. >> John (Grumpy in Lake Placid) >> >>> Patsy in New Zealand writes: "I have long argued that it would benefit >>> Irish tourism if those living overseas could access more readily the >>> information which might identify a location in Ireland for their >>> ancestors >>> which they could then visit. Limerick City seems to agree." > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >

In reply to Patsy, John, Margaret and others, I contacted the Irish Consulate in New Zealand to see if we could nudge Ireland into fulfilling our wishes re Family research. I also signed the partition for support in this. (listed by another member on this list) My email was sent to Ireland and the reply from Damian is below. He works for Failte Ireland, the National Tourism Development Authority in Dublin and handles the Genealogy area. Regards Jenny Martin (New Zealand) I can appreciate their frustration about the lack or availability of records. The Irish Genealogy Project which the government founded in 1987 is still in the business of 'digitising' the records. The aim is to have all state held records online and free of charge. Some great work has already been achieved with the 1901 and 1911 Census returns which are now online. State records only commenced in the mid 19th Century but all births/deaths/marriages are now available through the General Registrars Office in Roscommon. The government is committed to providing state records free of charge. Further info can be got at www.irishgenealogy.ie Two separate groups, the Irish Family History Foundation and the Ulster Family History Foundation operate a pay per view system. However these records are in the public domain. It is up to the consumer whether they wish to pay for the service or do their searching independently. The problem with church records is that they are the property of the churches and they are perfectly entitled to withhold access to the records, as in the case of West Cork, mentioned in the email. Cork, Cashel & Emly and Kerry are the main Roman Catholic dioceses where the Bishop has not permitted access. Given all the scandals in recent years, I guess the Roman Catholic churches are frightened of opening their records. Church of Ireland and Presbyterian records are openly available. I work for Failte Ireland, the National Tourism Development Authority in Dublin, and I look after the area of genealogy. Regards and thanks Damian O'Brien Product Officer - Contemporary Culture & the Arts

Thanks Jenny, good move and thanks for posting the reply - I am awaiting a reply from the Department of Culture and Tourism so will see if it differs in any way from the one you received. In the meantime some comments on the fellow who 'looks after the area of genealogy' for Failte Ireland: I am somewhat astounded by the inability to grasp the scale of interest in Irish research and the possibilities for genealogy tourism. 'Up to the individual' indeed!! We know that, and it is costly and sometimes soul-destroying. Our point is that if it were not so darned difficult to locate our ancestors many more of us would be off to Ireland in a flash to visit their home places, subject to finance of course. As I have already stated, the matter of the IFHF centres is one which frustrates me greatly, as does the reluctance of the Church to free up its records. I outlined my concerns in my message to the Department. Clearly our greatest frustration is not with 'state records' although progress is painfully slow there, but with the Church records. Many HAVE been transcribed and are 'locked up' by the Heritage Centres whose search facility is abysmal unless you already know the answer. (Some RC dioceses, parishes and individual priests have been/are more helpful in answering queries of course). As I understand it, the National Library of Ireland recently won a 17 year battle with the Church regarding the 'ownership' of the microfilmed records the Library holds (filmed originally by the LDS I think). To say the RC Church may be 'frightened of opening their books' after recent scandals is to show that this person does not know anything about the history of this problem. As far as the Church of Ireland is concerned, they have no restrictions on who can look at their records and they do not charge for access. They simply don't have the resources to make them available online. Many are on film at the National Archives in Dublin though, and these could be digitised, obviously at a cost. If the State does not step in and take control, the whole kit and caboodle could end up in private or corporate hands and we will pay even more for access. As for the BMDs being 'available through the GRO in Roscommon' well that's great - once you know what you want. The staff at the Dublin office simply shrugged when I asked last year when their indexes might go online. If it were not for the Familysearch BMDs we might never have seen them online at all. So much for the aim of making State records more accessible. The website he gives is the Central Signposting Index which I think (stand to be corrected) is the predecessor of the IFHF search site - out of date now and certainly does not cover the whole of the country. And of course is NOT free. Jenny my friend, I am not shooting the messenger here - Lord knows you do amazing work for Irish research in NZ. But you have shown what we are up against when those in these key roles have so little understanding of the issues. I can only hope we can be like the water and the stone, wear it away by our persistence. Best wishes, (Grumpy) Patsy - New Zealand Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2009 10:16 PM Subject: Free availability of Irish Records > In reply to Patsy, John, Margaret and others, > > I contacted the Irish Consulate in New Zealand to see if we could nudge > Ireland into fulfilling our wishes re Family research. > I also signed the partition for support in this. (listed by another member > on this list) > My email was sent to Ireland and the reply from Damian is below. > He works for Failte Ireland, the National Tourism Development Authority in > Dublin and handles the Genealogy area. > Regards > Jenny Martin (New Zealand) > <snip>

Hi All, A response from Damian to Patsy's comments. As you see he sent it to the list but, not being subscribed it won't go through. I have gathered all the comments from several of you and will forward them to him shortly and will post his reply to the list. I have left the headers with your contact details so Damian can reply individually if he wishes to. Please bear in mind Damian is the messenger and to a point his hands are tied as to how much can be achieved. We are here to let him know the areas of breakdown, not ostracise him, so keep to the facts and don't fabricate. Kind Regards Jenny (New Zealand) To: [email protected]; [email protected] Cc: Jenny Martin Subject: FW: Free availability of Irish Records Dear Patsy, Thank you for your email response. Failte Ireland is under no allusion as to the value of the genealogy market. Ireland receives 95,000 visitors annually who come for genealogical purposes. And that figure is growing. We, as an organisation are very active in this area, promoting genealogy and travel to Ireland. I can appreciate your comments about the IFHF. They are a commercial organisation who charge on a 'pay per view' model to access records. Individuals who wish to do their own research, don't have to pay their charges. With regard to my last email, as I stated church records are private records and there is no onus on the church to release them. I would encourage people to use the state records system instead. The website I mentioned is our official government website - irishgenealogy.ie. This is a 'one stop shop' for genealogy in Ireland. It is in-correct for you to state that it is the predecessor of the IFHF site. It has no connection to it. And it is a free service. Should you have any other queries, I'd be delighted to answer them. I have worked in this area for a number of years and served on a number of government committees and national steering groups in this area. I'm sorry that you think I have 'little understanding of the issues' or that 'this person does not know anything about the history of the problem'. I would be pleased to assist if I can. Regards and thanks Damian Damian O'Brien, Product Officer - Contemporary Culture & the Arts