John, I went to Horsehill first, and then was so pleased to find a nearby Killountane.....that I forgot to check West Cork townlands. Sure enough, there is a Killountain there, in Ballymodan civil parish, just 2 miles WSW of Bandon town. And, of course, there are more Glentanes. This time, an East and West version, in the mountains of Clondrohid civil parish, 4 miles south of Millstreet town. Sorry for the incomplete answer before...... and sorry for adding yet more alternatives to your search <gr>. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Pete Schermerhorn, in the glorious Berkshire hills of western Massachusetts

John Collins <johncla@optusnet.com.au> said: >I have recently uncovered papers advising that ancestors in the 1800's >were born in County Cork at : >(a) Killountan >(b) Horse Hill >(c) Glomthaine I suspect Glomthaine is a corruption of Glounthane, in the barony of Barrymore. see http://www.sci.net.au/mgrogan/cork/barrymore_barony.htm -dja

John at johncla@optusnet.com.au writes: << I have recently uncovered papers advising that ancestors in the 1800's were born in County Cork at : (a) Killountan (b) Horse Hill (c) Glomthaine >> John, The townland of Killountane is located in Inishannon civil parish, and just one mile NE of the town of Inishannon itself, along the N 71 national road to Cork City. There are three connected townlands of Horsehill, to wit, Horsehill Beg, Horsehill More (North) and Horsehill More (South). They are located SE of Inishannon town, on the R 605 regional road from there to Kinsale town. The three townlands are situated immediately N and W of the small town/village of Dunderrow - about 3 miles NW of Kinsale town. The third location is more of a problem. It appears that the townland name is Glantane or Glentane. The Glentane townland option is far to the NE of the other townlands, and is located in Ballynoe civil parish, about 6 miles SE of Castlelyons town. The townlands of Glantane Beg and More are in Cullen civil parish, about 6 miles NW of Millstreet town. The small town (more of a village, today) and townland of Glantane are in Kilshannig civil parish, about 5 miles WSW of Mallow town. This latter location would be the nearest to Killountane and Horsehill - but still 25 to 30 miles north-ish. I'll browse some more and see if I can find a "Glomthaine" closer to the other townlands than the choices I've given above. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Pete Schermerhorn, in the glorious Berkshire hills of western Massachusetts

Hi John - others will have more knowledge than I have but a Google search brings up a Kilountain as near Bandon. Cheers, Patsy - New Zealand. >I have recently uncovered papers advising that ancestors in the 1800's were >born in County Cork at : > (a) Killountan > (b) Horse Hill > (c) Glomthaine > > I have been unable to find any reference to these places and wonder > whether some fellow researcher might have come across them. > > John > Runcorn, Queensland, Australia >

I have recently uncovered papers advising that ancestors in the 1800's were born in County Cork at : (a) Killountan (b) Horse Hill (c) Glomthaine I have been unable to find any reference to these places and wonder whether some fellow researcher might have come across them. John Runcorn, Queensland, Australia

Hi, I know this is a shot in the dark but thought that I would give it a try since there has been quite a bit of traffic on this list. My wife's grand mother, Ada Murray b:abt 1890 Risca Monmourhshire, is the daughter of John Murry/Murray and Elizabeth Williams Mansell. John and Elizabeth married 5 Sep 1881 in Pontymister, Monmouthshire. His age on the Marriage Certificate is 22 which means he was most likely born about 1859/60. His father's name on the certificate is John Murry a Collier. His father is not shown as deceased but the following is the only John Murry that I can find where the place of birth is Risca, Mon. I found a John Murray in the 1881 census who is a boarder in the Ann Collins household. Ann is a 62 year old widow born in Rascarcevy, Ireland. Someone told me it was probably Rosscarbery a costal town in County Cork. In the 1871 census John is shown as a Ward age 10 in the Ann Collins household in Risca, Mon. Ann's age is shown as a 52 year old Widow born in Rascarcevy Co. Cork, Ireland. In the 1861 census I found John along with his mother Mary Murry, a 30 year old widow born in Cork, Ireland, and twin sister Elizabeth, age 10 months born Risca, boarding in the Richard McGuire household in Risca, Mon. Richard and the adult boarders were born Cork, Ireland. Ada's siblings names were Mary A., Elizabeth Jane, Phillip Hy, Ivor John, Wilfred Edward, Hetty Ethel, Elsie May and Lily Tryphena. Anyone have any ideas how I can make the connection from Wales to Ireland? Thanks Bruce Heath, Ohio

It should be remembered that most of the records that we're dealing with weren't written by the subjects of those records and in many instances those subjects weren't very literate. Also, people were just more casual about spelling than they are nowadays. I've been working with a parish register in Mayo. The priest who wrote most of those most those records in the first twenty years was pretty inconsistent about whether to put an "O'" before Boyle. He nearly always spelled McNicholas as McNicolas. In one instance, instead of Salmon, he entered Psalmon. I have one cousin who doesn't believe that his Dacey and Kearny Relatives were Deasy and Carney in the old country. We have to keep an open mind. John F

Hello Listmembers: I have been searching for our ancestors, Patrick O'Keefe and Margaret Ni Toole, who apparently married in Ireland before they went to London, England circa 1847. I have had searches made of most of Cork City, West Cork Heritage Center (Bandon, Courcey, Enniskeane, & Kilbrittain parishes), Tipperary Heritage Unit's records of the Archdiocese of Cashel & Emly, the Diocese of Cloyne, and Mallow Heritage Center, but without success. I have also looked through the fifteen volume work "O'KIEF COSHE MANG, SLIENE LOUGHER, AND UPPER BLACKWATER, IRELAND" by Albert Eugene Casey for traces of the marriage of our great great grandparents, Patrick O'Keeffe & Margaret (O') Toole, usually spelled Tuohil(l). In spite of looking at every entry for a Tuohil(l) or Tool(e), I could find no entries before the year 1847 which were related to a Patrick O'Keef(f)e - Margaret (O') Toole marriage. Here are the meager details we have about our ancestors. Patrick O'Keeffe and Margaret O'Toole, came from the Cork area in the late 1840's to London, where they had two sons, Edward O'Keeffe, who was born August 11, 1847 and baptized September 19, 1847, at St. Mary's, Cadogan Street, Chelsea, London, S.W., and David O'Keeffe, who was born July 26, 1849 and baptized August 12, 1849, also at St. Mary's, Cadogan Street. Witnesses to David's baptism were Edward and Sarah Quin. Patrick O'Keeffe was blacksmith and a fireman / laborer in a steam wheel works. The family was poor. Apparently, Margaret Ni Toole O'Keeffe died before 1857. David O'Keeffe was our family's ancestor. There was a teacher in our family, too. We think, Edward. There is a gap of seven years before Patrick O'Keeffe reappears in St. Mary's, Cadogan Street's sacramental records. Subsequently, Patrick apparently married Margaret Hughes. We believe she may have been born in England. But we don't know for sure. They had two children, Joseph, born on August 14, 1857, and Mary, born on April 25, 1860. We don't know what happened to Joseph. Mary was adopted. They resided at 2 Ebury Square in Pimlico. The 1861 British Census records for Pimlico-Belgravia are missing. Both children were baptized at St. Mary's, Cadogan Street, London. Margaret Ni Hughes O'Keef(f)e died Oct. 7, 1864, at the age of 36. Thus, she was born sometime around 1828. We believe that she is buried in St. Mary's Cemetery, Harrow Road, London, in a common grave. Thanks for any help you may provide. David F. O'Keefe PO BOX 820344 Houston, TX 77282-0344

I just recently signed on to this mailing list and my request was for information on a MARGARET WIGGINS, b. abt 1802 Ireland Her first son was b. 11 April 1828, Parish Church of St Ann's Shandon, CORK. I also believe she married near there to James Jackman. I have received no replies----Do I have the wrong mailing list????????? Lorri

I received several inquiries, so for the Newbies--- _http://www.castlegarden.org/_ (http://www.castlegarden.org/) _http://members.tripod.com/~L_Alfano/immig.htm_ (http://members.tripod.com/~L_Alfano/immig.htm) Regards, Candi in California

The use and dropping of the "O" must be more than just the issue of getting a job or avoiding reprisals by non-Catholics. I have seen baptism registers at Catholic churches in Cork and Limerick in the mid-1800s that have the "O" for the family name in the baptism of one child and without the "O" for another child of the same family. I don't know why they would be inconsistent. I did hear that my grandfather wrote a poem about his cousin or uncle who stopped using the "O" in O'Regan. The poem was called "When Jimmy dropped the "O". I guess I could ask the same question about why some of the Fitzgeralds had a lower case "g" and others, including my ancestors had an upper case "G". Ray FitzGerald Researching O'Regan, Drake & FitzGerald in northeast Cork and Southeast Limerick.

This letter was a joy to read early in the morning and will keep a smile on my face all day. Thanks for sharing, Daniel. Judie Morris, Vic., Australia. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Daniel Shea" <DanlShea@msn.com> To: <IRL-CORK-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, March 08, 2006 2:16 AM Subject: Dropping the "O" > My, father, Dan O'Shea from Faha West, Adrigole Parish, Beara, told my > sisters and I that the trip over in 1920 was so rough he had to use the > "O" as a life preserver. Like Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny the older > kids fully supported my father's tale when the younger would ask > questions. > > He also told us he rode a whale into Cork Harbor. To this day, I'm now 70, > I can picture my father high up on the back of a whale riding triumphantly > into Cork Harbor. > > The stories are now being repeated to his great grandchildren. > > > ==== IRL-CORK Mailing List ==== > Threaded archives for IRL-CORK can be found at > http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/irl-cork > > ============================== > Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the > last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: > http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx > > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.375 / Virus Database: 268.2.0/275 - Release Date: 6/03/2006 > >

Irish begrudgery? Nothing like a sweeping statement is there? If you look on the Griffiths valuation you will find very little use of the O'. Did they all convert? Regards,Kevin, Co Cork. > > > "Zizek, Candi (DHS-DCDC-IDB)" <CZizek@dhs.ca.gov> said: > > >All Irish struggled to keep their O's-which were required to be removed > >to get jobs and soup from the soup kitchen. Only the most stubborn held > >on to them. But records could be your people either with or without the > >O', depending upon who was writing the records (like the English). > > In all the years I've been researching Irish history and genealogy, this > is the first time I have ever heard this explanation of disappearing "O"s. > While there are apocryphal tales from Famine times of Irish Catholics > being forced to convert to Protestantism before "taking the soup" from > non-Catholic relief organizations, I've never seen it alleged that a > change in surname was part of the deal. Those who did convert were > derided by their co-religionists as "soupers" but this is likely due to > the nature of Irish begrudgery, where whenever one's fellows gain some > advantage or advancement it is alleged that they did so by nefarious means. > > -dja > > > ==== IRL-CORK Mailing List ==== > Threaded archives for IRL-CORK can be found at > http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/irl-cork > > ============================== > View and search Historical Newspapers. Read about your ancestors, find > marriage announcements and more. Learn more: > http://www.ancestry.com/s13969/rd.ashx > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- Find the home of your dreams with eircom net property Sign up for email alerts now http://www.eircom.net/propertyalerts

Just wondering if anyone could give me someone advise on how I would find information... I am looking for a Jeremiah Roche and his wife Catherine they had three children: William Patrick and Thomas and daughter May. Patrick Roche was transported to Tasmania in 1843 it says on his convict record that his parents were as written above, and says that he was a native of Mitchells Town, County Cork I have been checking through different sites trying to find something on Jeremiah and wife Catherine but keep coming up with nothing. Its a bit of a myth as to when he was born because I have three peices of information giving me three different dates for each even in his life. his convict record says he was 30 in 1843 and his marrage certificate says he was 45 in 1862 and his death certificate says he was 96 in 1898 any help would be appreciated. Carol Roche Tas

My, father, Dan O'Shea from Faha West, Adrigole Parish, Beara, told my sisters and I that the trip over in 1920 was so rough he had to use the "O" as a life preserver. Like Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny the older kids fully supported my father's tale when the younger would ask questions. He also told us he rode a whale into Cork Harbor. To this day, I'm now 70, I can picture my father high up on the back of a whale riding triumphantly into Cork Harbor. The stories are now being repeated to his great grandchildren.

Carol Roche <rochegen@gmail.com> said: >Patrick Roche was transported to Tasmania in 1843 it says on his convict >record that his parents were as written above, and says that he was a >native of Mitchells Town, County Cork <deleted> >his convict record says he was 30 in 1843 and his marrage certificate >says he was 45 in 1862 and his death certificate says he was 96 in 1898 The National Archives of Ireland database of Transportation Records at http://www.nationalarchives.ie/topics/transportation/search01.html shows a 32-year-old Patrick Roche sentenced to 14 years transportation for burglary in a trial in Cork on 2 January 1843. While there may not be mention of his relations, you may well be able to learn more about the offence for which he was convicted by searching local newspapers for the period of the trial, and, if the date of the arrest is mentioned, you can look for reports of the crime as well. Family members are sometimes mentioned as being witneses or accessories, particularly so in the more severe crimes. Patrick having been given 14 years, instead of the customary 7, could well have been suffciently notorious a criminal to warrant a more detailed report in the local press. See http://www.nli.ie/newsplan/default.htm for a list of newspapers available for the various counties of Ireland. Your Patrick's trial might be found in the Cork Examiner. To get an idea of the extent to which trails were reported in the days before Court-TV, put the terms transported or transportation in the search engine of the IrelandOldnews website. And if you put in "mitchelstown" you will get hits on 67 pages. - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - Dennis Ahern | Ireland Newspaper Abstracts Acton, Massachusetts | http://www.IrelandOldNews.com - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Hi Dennis-- My information comes from my living O'Sullivan cousins in Knockawaddra, Dunmanway, speaking clearly about the poorhouse in Dunmanway, and from the breadth of records I have studied in US, Ireland and Wales, where enumerators listed my family as Carty rather than McCarthy, and as Connor decade after decade, while their baptismal and burial names were clearly O'Connor. Now it is possible that the Dunmanway information is stilted, as those cousins of mine are old-world Irish compared to my experience elsewhere. But, as a living cousin, I have been told to carry that history, and never to forget that angry story. My entire O'Connor family from Wales (originally Cork) managed to get their O's in by listing it as their middle initial (MA 1910 census). I still have written and spoken records from my O'Sullivan cousins in New Castle, Pennsylvania, who are adamant (although censuses list them for decades as Sullivans), that they are O'Sullivans. My point was, researchers should not let the alternate spellings throw them off. In my estimation, these two spellings are interchangeable, depending upon who wrote the records. I don't want anybody to fear they have not found their family merely because an O or Mc is gone missing. Happens all the time. Regards, Candi In all the years I've been researching Irish history and genealogy, this is the first time I have ever heard this explanation of disappearing "O"s. While there are apocryphal tales from Famine times of Irish Catholics being forced to convert to Protestantism before "taking the soup" from non-Catholic relief organizations, I've never seen it alleged that a change in surname was part of the deal. Those who did convert were derided by their co-religionists as "soupers" but this is likely due to the nature of Irish begrudgery, where whenever one's fellows gain some advantage or advancement it is alleged that they did so by nefarious means. -dja

"Zizek, Candi (DHS-DCDC-IDB)" <CZizek@dhs.ca.gov> said: >All Irish struggled to keep their O's-which were required to be removed >to get jobs and soup from the soup kitchen. Only the most stubborn held >on to them. But records could be your people either with or without the >O', depending upon who was writing the records (like the English). In all the years I've been researching Irish history and genealogy, this is the first time I have ever heard this explanation of disappearing "O"s. While there are apocryphal tales from Famine times of Irish Catholics being forced to convert to Protestantism before "taking the soup" from non-Catholic relief organizations, I've never seen it alleged that a change in surname was part of the deal. Those who did convert were derided by their co-religionists as "soupers" but this is likely due to the nature of Irish begrudgery, where whenever one's fellows gain some advantage or advancement it is alleged that they did so by nefarious means. -dja

As from Irish history I interpret it from both English and Irish authors: The O was part of the overall celtic clan structure which was governed by brehon laws. The Normans first, then the English, wanted the Irish to live under their laws, and do away with the brehon laws which harked back to the druid days hundreds of years before. In one effort to break the clans and force them to become english, use of the O was considered treason and punishable by death. So those who continued to use the O, or the Mc, or the Mac, etc. etc. were the true Irish patriots. As Winston Churchill once said, "The Irish don't make very good Englishmen." I am personally happy to see the O and other precepts to surnames still used. Donal O'Collaugh/O'Collaigh O'Kelly ----- Original Message ----- From: "kevin mccormack" <kevinmcc59@eircom.net> To: <IRL-CORK-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, March 07, 2006 7:12 AM Subject: Re: > Irish begrudgery? Nothing like a sweeping statement is there? If you look > on the Griffiths valuation you will find very little use of the O'. Did > they all convert? Regards,Kevin, Co Cork.

Mrs. Katherine Leary Erie Daily Times Tuesday, October 6, 1964 Mrs. Katherine T. DONOVAN Leary, eighty-seven, of 727 W. 9th, died Monday afternoon in St. Vincent Hospital following an extended illness. She was the widow of John J. Leary, onetime fire captain with the Erie Fire Department. Mrs. Leary was born in County Cork, Ireland, and had lived in Erie for the past 70 years. She was a member of the Sacred Heart League and the Rosary Society of St. Andrew's Church. Mrs. Leary served as a Democratic Jury Commissioner for 12 years. Survivors include four daughters, Mrs. Francis G. Sullivan, Mrs. Mary Sullivan and Mrs. Edward Owens, all of Erie, and Mrs. Harold Donckers, of Roanoke, VA; a son, John F. Leary, of Collingswood, N. J.; 13 grandchildren and four great grandchildren. Friends may call at the John J. Quinn Funeral Home, 9th and Liberty, today and Wednesday from 2 to 5 and 7 to 10 p.m., and are invited to attend services in St. Andrew's Church, Thursday at 9 am. Burial will be in Trinity Cemetery. John J. Leary, Retired Fire Captain, Dies Erie Dispatch, Friday, August 14, 1953 John J. Leary, 77, well-known retired Erie Fire Department captain, died of a heart attack Friday morning at his residence, 727 W. 9th St. He joined the fire department when it was still a volunteer call organization, and retired in 1925. A native and lifelong resident of Erie, he was the son of John and Mary Cullinan Leary, who were among the earliest settlers here. He was a member of St. Andrew's Church and the Sacred Heart League. Surviving are his wife, Katherine DONOVAN Leary, former county Jury commissioner; four daughters, Mrs. Francis G. Sullivan, Miss Betty Leary, and Mrs. Eugene J. Sullivan, all of Erie, and Mrs. Harold Donckers of Roanoke, Va.; a son, John F. Leary of Collingswood, NJ. Others surviving are two sisters, Mrs. Nell O'Rourke and Mrs. William Holland, both of Erie, and 13 grandchildren. Prayer services will be held Monday at 9:30 a.m. from the John L. Hanley Funeral Home, 9th and Liberty Sts., and at 10 o'clock in St. Andrew's Church. Interment will be! in Trinity Cemetery. Elizabeth Anne Lizzy Dee DONOVAN O'Brien, b. Jan 1879 in Mt. Gabriel, County Cork, Ireland; d. March 1961, New York NY. Married to Patrick J. O'Brien in 1909 in NY. QUEENSLAND DEATH CERTIFICATE REGISTRATION NUMBER 1957/ 022199; 5790966 Deceased Name and surname: Nano Tierney Maiden Name: Nano DONOVAN Occupation: Widow Sex and Age: Female, 87 years Date of Death; 27 September 1957 Place of Death: 97 Oceana Terrace, Manly Where born and, if not born in Australia, period of residence in Australia: Schull, Cork, Ireland; 6 years New South Wales, 60 years Queensland Parents, Name and surname of father: - O'DONOVAN Occupation: -- Name and maiden surname of mother: Katherine Coughlin Marriage, Where, at what age and to whom deceased was married: Lismore, New South Wales, 26 years, Martin Tierney Children, Names and ages: John Thomas, 58 years.