Thanks for recommending this book Chris. I've just returned from a month in Ireland, and learned what happened to my ancestors from Co. Clare. They never talked about it, out of shame and because it hurt too much. I think their story needs to be told, so that is what I am beginning to do. Their absentee landlord ordered his agent to "tumble in" all of the houses in their village and turn them out in late March 1847. This was because the potato blight in 1845 and 1846 meant they were literally starving and could not afford to pay the rent. As a group they walked to Killaloe where the priest blessed them and gave them the little help he could, then they walked to the pier head in Killaloe and got friends with boats to take them to Limerick City. Those who were strong enough helped to row. There they were taken by fishing boats to Cobh Harbour in Cork where they bought passage on the first ship going west. The unscrupulous captain overburdened the boat, did not lay in supplies of bread sufficient for the number of passengers, and the water he provided was foul and inadequate also. The passage was 63 days instead of the average 31 days. 40% of the passengers died at sea, and many more at Grosse Isle Quarantine Station and on the inland journey to Ontario. My great-great grandparents had 6 children under 8. Twin daughters age 6 and a 2 year old son did not survive to see their destination. Timothy is buried at Grosse Isle, one of the twins at Kingston, and another God alone knows where, perhaps at sea. Within 9 years the father and 9 children were dead and buried. Eviction was a death sentence in many cases. It seems to me a clear and cruel case of Genocide, nothing less! How terrible it must have been to be starving and at the same time to see boatloads of food loaded under armed guard to go to England. I have English, Scottish and Irish ancestors. I know my English ancestors being ordinary folk did not make the governmental policies of that terrible time, but it has soured me to that part of my heritage! Mary Wilkinson, Ontario, Canada -----Original Message----- From: irl-cork-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:irl-cork-bounces@rootsweb.com]On Behalf Of kevin Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 5:49 PM To: irl-cork@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [Cork] Irish Birth dates > Hedgerow schools>British oppression. If anyone would like to read an excellent book on the famine in Muskerry (mid -Cork) I can recommend Famine in Muskerry by Maire Mac Suibne 1997 published by Litho press Midleton, Co Cork. Regards,Kevin. > > Last night, I happened across a program called Moments in Time that covers different historical events. This one happened to be the Irish Famine and I wish I'd seen all of it. Out of ignorance, I always thought the Irish left to escape the famine. I had no idea that they were actually forced out in many cases. I didn't know about the deadly marches from the rural areas to the ports and I didn't know that the British yanked the Irish out of their homes, destroying the house so that they couldn't return to it. I knew about workhouses but not that they were, for all intents and purposes, a means to work the Irish like slaves in exchange for watery soup. I didn't know about the pestilance and disease that workhouses fostered and how many Irish men, women, and children died there. When I learned that a million had died and another million had been forced by the need to survive to seek a new life away from Ireland, it gave me a whole new view of my ancestors. > > I'd been wondering why only the two brothers came to the States. Now I know that it's possible they were the only survivors of their family. I've always been proud of my Irish heritage but never as much as I feel now. Those two brothers created a legacy that they probably never realized they had...pride in their courage, pride in their strength, pride in the fact that I carry their name, pride in knowing that I...and the rest of you on this list...are making certain that they won't be forgotten. > > Okay. Sunday sermon's over. Just had to put it out there. > > Chris > 2nd great granddaughter of Patrick Sullivan > 2nd great grandniece of Jeremiah Sullivan > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRL-CORK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > www.ancestralservices.co.uk ----------------------------------------------------------------- Find the home of your dreams with eircom net property Sign up for email alerts now http://www.eircom.net/propertyalerts ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRL-CORK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Well, now you have some insight - what else can I say? Keep reading and looking. ***** Reply to the LIST ONLY - Please ***** ***** Thanks for your consideration ***** Pádraig Mór, An Sean Gabhar ----- Original Message ----- From: "MARY THOMAS" <coloknight@verizon.net> To: "Cork List" <irl-cork@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 5:31 PM Subject: [Cork] Irish Birth dates > Hedgerow schools>British oppression. > Last night, I happened across a program called Moments in Time that covers > different historical events. This one happened to be the Irish Famine and > I wish I'd seen all of it. Out of ignorance, I always thought the Irish > left to escape the famine. I had no idea that they were actually forced > out in many cases. I didn't know about the deadly marches from the rural > areas to the ports and I didn't know that the British yanked the Irish out > of their homes, destroying the house so that they couldn't return to it. > I knew about workhouses but not that they were, for all intents and > purposes, a means to work the Irish like slaves in exchange for watery > soup. I didn't know about the pestilance and disease that workhouses > fostered and how many Irish men, women, and children died there. When I > learned that a million had died and another million had been forced by the > need to survive to seek a new life away from Ireland, it gave me a whole > new view of my ancestors. > > I'd been wondering why only the two brothers came to the States. Now I > know that it's possible they were the only survivors of their family. > I've always been proud of my Irish heritage but never as much as I feel > now. Those two brothers created a legacy that they probably never > realized they had...pride in their courage, pride in their strength, pride > in the fact that I carry their name, pride in knowing that I...and the > rest of you on this list...are making certain that they won't be > forgotten. > > Okay. Sunday sermon's over. Just had to put it out there. > > Chris > 2nd great granddaughter of Patrick Sullivan > 2nd great grandniece of Jeremiah Sullivan

Hi Linda, There were plent of ships leaving the west coast for the USA at that time.I'm afraid there aren't any sources to check on this.Co mayo today is a 4-5 hour car journey. As this was the time of the famine I find it hard to believe they would travel to Co cork unless they were a family of means. Best regards Kevin. > > Does anyone know if there were great numbers of families that left County Mayo for County Cork in the period between say 1840 and 1850? Would families from County Mayo go to County Cork to leave from Ireland to go to the US? Are there any sources I could search to find out about this? > Linda Rooney Hess > > > --------------------------------- > Get your own web address for just $1.99/1st yr. We'll help. Yahoo! Small Business. > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRL-CORK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > www.ancestralservices.co.uk ----------------------------------------------------------------- Find the home of your dreams with eircom net property Sign up for email alerts now http://www.eircom.net/propertyalerts

Learning what I have, I'm reminded of my mother's family. They were French. They settled what they called Acadia...now Nova Scotia...and reclaimed the land from the salt marshes. In 1755, the English decided they wanted it. They rounded up the Acadians and shipped them to wherever...separating children from parents, etc. I'm also a quarter English but lately I've taken great comfort in the fact that my English ancestors left England for the States to get away from the sort of men who felt no guilt in taking what they wanted no matter the cost...to the Acadians or the Irish. I also take great comfort in the fact that, in the end, the English failed. The Acadians and the Irish dug into their new lives and they survived. Mary Wilkinson <delamary@rogers.com> wrote: They never talked about it, out of shame and because it hurt too much. I think their story needs to be told, so that is what I am beginning to do. I know my English ancestors being ordinary folk did not make the governmental policies of that terrible time, but it has soured me to that part of my heritage!

In the meadows or fairs? Are we talking of Ireland 2006? It wasnt my words that they might of been forced to use an X. It was suggested by another lister. Of course I haven't seen an 1860's cert in Irish......but they wouldn't of used an x. if they were literate.regards,Kevin. > > I don't recall reading in this thread that anyone was forced to sign with a= > n = > > 'X'. > > But, have you ever seen a 1860's certificate written in Irish? > > Although the spoken native language was prevalent in non-urban areas of the = > > country, many maybe did not know how to write it. There can be little doubt = > > that in such places as Achill, and the Aran Islands, as well as parts of th= > e = > > Co.Kerry, and the Donegal seaboards, English was a foreign and unknown = > > language. Even to-day in the outlying western areas of Co.Galway, such, fo= > r = > > instance, as Barna, one won't hear English spoken at any social gatherings, = > > or at chapel, nor in the meadows, saving hay, or in the ploughfields, or = > > small town fairs. > > ***** Reply to the LIST ONLY - Please ***** > ***** Thanks for your consideration ***** > > P=E1draig M=F3r, > An Sean Gabhar > ----- Original Message ----- = > > From: "kevin " <kevinmcc59@eircom.net> > To: <irl-cork@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 8:40 AM > Subject: Re: Irish Birth Certificates having an 'X' for Signatures > > > >I beleieve in the 1860's Irish was more prevalent aound the country.Here i= > n = > > >Co Cork we would consider the Ballyvourney and Ballingeary area as the = > > >Gaeltacht.Irish was more widely spread in those times. I can't believe = > > >someone being forced to sign with an X though. Regards,Kevin. > > > >> > >> Yes, it would be interesting in that respect to view an 1860's BDM for = > =3D > >> > >> persons bred, born, reared and died in the strictly Gaeltacht areas of = > > >> the =3D > >> > >> western seaboard. > >> > >> > >> ***** Reply to the LIST ONLY - Please ***** > >> ***** Thanks for your consideration ***** > >> > >> P=3DE1draig M=3DF3r, > >> An Sean Gabhar > >> ----- Original Message ----- =3D > >> > >> From: "Cheryl Dynan" <cdynan@rcn.com> > >> To: <irl-cork@rootsweb.com> > >> Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 4:42 PM > >> Subject: Re: Irish Birth Certificates having an 'X' for Signatures > >> > >> > >> And I believe often that the X was not because the person was > >> illiteratre but because they were literate in a different language. As > >> pointed out before many people had Irish as their only language not = > > >> English, > >> and the English insisted that births be recorded in English. > >> Cheryl > >> ----- Original Message ----- =3D > >> > >> From: "P=3DE1draig M=3DF3r =3DD3 Gealagain" <padraigogealagain@rogers.co= > m> > >> To: <irl-cork@rootsweb.com> > >> Cc: <irl-limerick@rootsweb.com>; <irl-clare@rootsweb.com>; > >> <cotipperary@rootsweb.com> > >> Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 10:57 AM > >> Subject: Re: Irish Birth Certificates having an 'X' for Signatures > >> > >> > >> > > I can assure you from my experience that it was illiteracy, compare > >> > marriage certs and entries.....the old x. was very prevalent...> > >> > > >> > Yes, for sure there are nearly all signed by the mark 'X', but I can = > > >> > not > >> > believe that such a mark meant it was always a result of illiteracy on > >> > the part of the informants. > >> > > >> > Consider this probable scenario of a time before the invention of > >> > photo-copiers and computer digitisation as to how the process of > >> > registrations might have been accomplished: > > > = > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRL-CORK-request@root= > sweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and = > the body of the message > www.ancestralservices.co.uk ----------------------------------------------------------------- Find the home of your dreams with eircom net property Sign up for email alerts now http://www.eircom.net/propertyalerts

I'm heading to the library tomorrow. If they don't have it, I'm checking Barnes&Nobles. Thanks. Chris kevin <kevinmcc59@eircom.net> wrote: If anyone would like to read an excellent book on the famine in Muskerry (mid -Cork) I can recommend Famine in Muskerry by Maire Mac Suibne 1997 published by Litho press Midleton, Co Cork. Regards,Kevin. > > Last night, I happened across a program called Moments in Time that covers different historical events. This one happened to be the Irish Famine and I wish I'd seen all of it. Out of ignorance, I always thought the Irish left to escape the famine. I had no idea that they were actually forced out in many cases. I didn't know about the deadly marches from the rural areas to the ports and I didn't know that the British yanked the Irish out of their homes, destroying the house so that they couldn't return to it. I knew about workhouses but not that they were, for all intents and purposes, a means to work the Irish like slaves in exchange for watery soup. I didn't know about the pestilance and disease that workhouses fostered and how many Irish men, women, and children died there. When I learned that a million had died and another million had been forced by the need to survive to seek a new life away from Ireland, it gave me a whole new view of my ancestors. > > I'd been wondering why only the two brothers came to the States. Now I know that it's possible they were the only survivors of their family. I've always been proud of my Irish heritage but never as much as I feel now. Those two brothers created a legacy that they probably never realized they had...pride in their courage, pride in their strength, pride in the fact that I carry their name, pride in knowing that I...and the rest of you on this list...are making certain that they won't be forgotten. > > Okay. Sunday sermon's over. Just had to put it out there. > > Chris > 2nd great granddaughter of Patrick Sullivan > 2nd great grandniece of Jeremiah Sullivan > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRL-CORK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > www.ancestralservices.co.uk ----------------------------------------------------------------- Find the home of your dreams with eircom net property Sign up for email alerts now http://www.eircom.net/propertyalerts ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRL-CORK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Last night, I happened across a program called Moments in Time that covers different historical events. This one happened to be the Irish Famine and I wish I'd seen all of it. Out of ignorance, I always thought the Irish left to escape the famine. I had no idea that they were actually forced out in many cases. I didn't know about the deadly marches from the rural areas to the ports and I didn't know that the British yanked the Irish out of their homes, destroying the house so that they couldn't return to it. I knew about workhouses but not that they were, for all intents and purposes, a means to work the Irish like slaves in exchange for watery soup. I didn't know about the pestilance and disease that workhouses fostered and how many Irish men, women, and children died there. When I learned that a million had died and another million had been forced by the need to survive to seek a new life away from Ireland, it gave me a whole new view of my ancestors. I'd been wondering why only the two brothers came to the States. Now I know that it's possible they were the only survivors of their family. I've always been proud of my Irish heritage but never as much as I feel now. Those two brothers created a legacy that they probably never realized they had...pride in their courage, pride in their strength, pride in the fact that I carry their name, pride in knowing that I...and the rest of you on this list...are making certain that they won't be forgotten. Okay. Sunday sermon's over. Just had to put it out there. Chris 2nd great granddaughter of Patrick Sullivan 2nd great grandniece of Jeremiah Sullivan

I beleieve in the 1860's Irish was more prevalent aound the country.Here in Co Cork we would consider the Ballyvourney and Ballingeary area as the Gaeltacht.Irish was more widely spread in those times. I can't believe someone being forced to sign with an X though. Regards,Kevin. > > Yes, it would be interesting in that respect to view an 1860's BDM for = > > persons bred, born, reared and died in the strictly Gaeltacht areas of the = > > western seaboard. > > > ***** Reply to the LIST ONLY - Please ***** > ***** Thanks for your consideration ***** > > P=E1draig M=F3r, > An Sean Gabhar > ----- Original Message ----- = > > From: "Cheryl Dynan" <cdynan@rcn.com> > To: <irl-cork@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 4:42 PM > Subject: Re: Irish Birth Certificates having an 'X' for Signatures > > > And I believe often that the X was not because the person was > illiteratre but because they were literate in a different language. As > pointed out before many people had Irish as their only language not English, > and the English insisted that births be recorded in English. > Cheryl > ----- Original Message ----- = > > From: "P=E1draig M=F3r =D3 Gealagain" <padraigogealagain@rogers.com> > To: <irl-cork@rootsweb.com> > Cc: <irl-limerick@rootsweb.com>; <irl-clare@rootsweb.com>; > <cotipperary@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 10:57 AM > Subject: Re: Irish Birth Certificates having an 'X' for Signatures > > > > > I can assure you from my experience that it was illiteracy, compare > > marriage certs and entries.....the old x. was very prevalent...> > > > > Yes, for sure there are nearly all signed by the mark 'X', but I can not > > believe that such a mark meant it was always a result of illiteracy on > > the part of the informants. > > > > Consider this probable scenario of a time before the invention of > > photo-copiers and computer digitisation as to how the process of > > registrations might have been accomplished: > > > > > > = > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRL-CORK-request@root= > sweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and = > the body of the message > www.ancestralservices.co.uk ----------------------------------------------------------------- Find the home of your dreams with eircom net property Sign up for email alerts now http://www.eircom.net/propertyalerts

There were (and may still be) Hourihanes in the townland of Knockskagh, north of Leap, in west Cork. My grand-father John Connolly was born there. His father's name was also John, and there was a John Connolly (not necessarily the same one) married to an Ellen Hourihane there. They had three children, according to the parish records, and then my great-grandfather, married to Bridget Regan, had ten children beginning in 1866. I've always wondered if perhaps the first wife, and possibly the children, all died (the first three children were all girls, and the names are repeated among the second batch of children, although in a different order--I know, the same names recur all the time in that area, so that's not conclusive). Sheila Connolly

I don't recall reading in this thread that anyone was forced to sign with an 'X'. But, have you ever seen a 1860's certificate written in Irish? Although the spoken native language was prevalent in non-urban areas of the country, many maybe did not know how to write it. There can be little doubt that in such places as Achill, and the Aran Islands, as well as parts of the Co.Kerry, and the Donegal seaboards, English was a foreign and unknown language. Even to-day in the outlying western areas of Co.Galway, such, for instance, as Barna, one won't hear English spoken at any social gatherings, or at chapel, nor in the meadows, saving hay, or in the ploughfields, or small town fairs. ***** Reply to the LIST ONLY - Please ***** ***** Thanks for your consideration ***** Pádraig Mór, An Sean Gabhar ----- Original Message ----- From: "kevin " <kevinmcc59@eircom.net> To: <irl-cork@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 8:40 AM Subject: Re: Irish Birth Certificates having an 'X' for Signatures >I beleieve in the 1860's Irish was more prevalent aound the country.Here in >Co Cork we would consider the Ballyvourney and Ballingeary area as the >Gaeltacht.Irish was more widely spread in those times. I can't believe >someone being forced to sign with an X though. Regards,Kevin. > >> >> Yes, it would be interesting in that respect to view an 1860's BDM for = >> >> persons bred, born, reared and died in the strictly Gaeltacht areas of >> the = >> >> western seaboard. >> >> >> ***** Reply to the LIST ONLY - Please ***** >> ***** Thanks for your consideration ***** >> >> P=E1draig M=F3r, >> An Sean Gabhar >> ----- Original Message ----- = >> >> From: "Cheryl Dynan" <cdynan@rcn.com> >> To: <irl-cork@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 4:42 PM >> Subject: Re: Irish Birth Certificates having an 'X' for Signatures >> >> >> And I believe often that the X was not because the person was >> illiteratre but because they were literate in a different language. As >> pointed out before many people had Irish as their only language not >> English, >> and the English insisted that births be recorded in English. >> Cheryl >> ----- Original Message ----- = >> >> From: "P=E1draig M=F3r =D3 Gealagain" <padraigogealagain@rogers.com> >> To: <irl-cork@rootsweb.com> >> Cc: <irl-limerick@rootsweb.com>; <irl-clare@rootsweb.com>; >> <cotipperary@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 10:57 AM >> Subject: Re: Irish Birth Certificates having an 'X' for Signatures >> >> >> > > I can assure you from my experience that it was illiteracy, compare >> > marriage certs and entries.....the old x. was very prevalent...> >> > >> > Yes, for sure there are nearly all signed by the mark 'X', but I can >> > not >> > believe that such a mark meant it was always a result of illiteracy on >> > the part of the informants. >> > >> > Consider this probable scenario of a time before the invention of >> > photo-copiers and computer digitisation as to how the process of >> > registrations might have been accomplished:

Yes, it would be interesting in that respect to view an 1860's BDM for persons bred, born, reared and died in the strictly Gaeltacht areas of the western seaboard. ***** Reply to the LIST ONLY - Please ***** ***** Thanks for your consideration ***** Pádraig Mór, An Sean Gabhar ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cheryl Dynan" <cdynan@rcn.com> To: <irl-cork@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 4:42 PM Subject: Re: Irish Birth Certificates having an 'X' for Signatures And I believe often that the X was not because the person was illiteratre but because they were literate in a different language. As pointed out before many people had Irish as their only language not English, and the English insisted that births be recorded in English. Cheryl ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pádraig Mór Ó Gealagain" <padraigogealagain@rogers.com> To: <irl-cork@rootsweb.com> Cc: <irl-limerick@rootsweb.com>; <irl-clare@rootsweb.com>; <cotipperary@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 10:57 AM Subject: Re: Irish Birth Certificates having an 'X' for Signatures > > I can assure you from my experience that it was illiteracy, compare > marriage certs and entries.....the old x. was very prevalent...> > > Yes, for sure there are nearly all signed by the mark 'X', but I can not > believe that such a mark meant it was always a result of illiteracy on > the part of the informants. > > Consider this probable scenario of a time before the invention of > photo-copiers and computer digitisation as to how the process of > registrations might have been accomplished: >

Does anyone know if there were great numbers of families that left County Mayo for County Cork in the period between say 1840 and 1850? Would families from County Mayo go to County Cork to leave from Ireland to go to the US? Are there any sources I could search to find out about this? Linda Rooney Hess --------------------------------- Get your own web address for just $1.99/1st yr. We'll help. Yahoo! Small Business.

The reply below from Kevin is the same reference to "fostering" as I have seen among the Highland Scots (whose Gaelic bloodline stems from NW Ireland into the 11th century Irish/Scot Kingdom of Dalriada http://macinnes.org/dalriada.php ). Highland Scot children were often fostered between clans to keep peace among the various clan factions (reference "Burt's Letters" written in 1720) Regards, Ben MacDonald Glendale, Arizona -----Original Message----- From: irl-cork-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:irl-cork-bounces@rootsweb.com]On Behalf Of Judie Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 6:16 AM To: irl-cork@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: Foster Brother. Thanks L and Kevin for these replies; much appreciated. I don't mind a history lesson as I'm always delighted to learn any snippet I can about Irish history and I especially like to hear what Irish people have to say about their own country and people. I was mainly wondering if the word "foster" could have had a different meaning in the late 1700's. I have seen wills where a "godchild" turned out to be a grandchild, and a "nephew" was actually a cousin and very often "brother" for brother-in-law. Maybe "foster" in this case could have meant something like a child who grew up on the property and by the time the two men were middled aged they had become very close and trusting friends. Guess I'll never really know. Thanks again for your ideas, all of which I have considered. Judie, Australia. ----- Original Message ----- From: "kevin " <kevinmcc59@eircom.net> To: <irl-cork@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, September 24, 2006 12:18 AM Subject: RE: Foster Brother. > Perhaps its just a case that he wasn't too keen on him.he could of been a > drunkard or gambler and he knew whatever he left it would be wasted. > As for our Irish history lesson in our "centuries old tradition of > fostering children"I think we can lose the run of ourselves..... "warring > factions?" Are we talking 1800 Ireland or the 1400's? regards,Kevin. Co > Cork. > >> >> Fostering of children is a centuries old Irish tradition. Sometimes >> children >> were fostered by the parents' siblings or near cousins, while other times >> they were fostered by known 'enemies', almost as hostages to assure some >> degree of peace between warring factions. Just as with fostering >> relationships today, some foster siblings would have been very close and >> treated as true brothers and sisters while others would have been barely >> tolerated, with every possible variation between the two extremes. >> >> Rather than comparing John Finn to the widow and children, my suggestion >> would be to compare him to James' birth brothers and sisters. If John was >> mentioned and known birth siblings were not, or if the birth siblings >> fared >> worse than John then it's probably safe to conclude that John and James >> were >> fairly close. >> >> L >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: irl-cork-bounces@rootsweb.com >> [mailto:irl-cork-bounces@rootsweb.com]On Behalf Of Judie >> Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 10:04 PM >> To: IRL-CORK-L@rootsweb.com >> Subject: Foster Brother. >> >> >> Hello everyone, >> >> I have a will written by James Thornhill in 1796 wherein he leaves a sum >> of >> money to his "foster brother," John Finn. It was a small amount, >> equivalent >> to that bequeathed to his staff and much less than the legacies left to >> his >> wife and children. It seems to me that John was not a brother in the way >> that a foster brother would be today - if this were the case I feel that >> he'd have fared better in the will. >> >> Is anyone able to enlighten me as to the probable relationship between >> James >> Thornhill and John Finn, in Cork, in the late 18th century? >> >> Judie Morris, >> Victoria, Australia. >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> IRL-CORK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes >> in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> IRL-CORK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > www.ancestralservices.co.uk > > ----------------------------------------------------------------- > Find the home of your dreams with eircom net property > Sign up for email alerts now http://www.eircom.net/propertyalerts > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > IRL-CORK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.12.8/455 - Release Date: 22/09/2006 > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRL-CORK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

OK I'm confused now.Why the urge to find if our ancestors were literate or not? Those who had wealth were literate those who did not probably were not. It was the same in Eng. and Wales and more than likely the US too. If you didn't go to school then that was it.No one is suggesting they were stupid. Our ancetors in the mid 1800's probably weren't the most hygienic and the teeth were in a bit of a state too. This isn't a personal thing or something to get touchy about.It's called history. best regards,Kevin.Co Cork. > > Greetings, > Let's consider this: An Irish person in 1750 has learned to read and > write. Will all his or her descendants, for all time, also be literate? > No, not necessarily! There were periods of time in Ireland when several > generations of a family had been fully literate, but then times changed, > and their descendants had little or no access to schools. The young ones > had to learn from a difficult daily "school of life" as best they could. > Food and shelter took priority. > Also, there could be variation within a family, such as only enough > resources for one child to go to school. Or only the sons. > So, if you find several generations of "x-marking" individuals in the > country they emigrated to, such as the US, don't be surprised to find > signatures or other evidence of formal education, farther back in their > Irish ancestors. > > It can be discouraging to find x-marks, or to see those census column > checkmarks for "Can't read, can't write." That's a good time to remember > that the Irish prized learning far back in their history, and reading > and writing were not the only ways that learning was passed down to us. > > Barb Glassel > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRL-CORK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > www.ancestralservices.co.uk ----------------------------------------------------------------- Find the home of your dreams with eircom net property Sign up for email alerts now http://www.eircom.net/propertyalerts

I'm researching my mother's Irish roots. John and Alice or Ellen HOURIHANE left Cork by 1851 with children Patrick, Mary, Ann, Rose, John, Michael and Margaret all born in Ireland between 1834 and 1848. The girls all married in Wigan and became Mary Kennedy, Ann Glennon, Rose Green and Margaret Farrimond. The youngest, Margaret was my gr gr grandmother. I've searched half of the west cork Catholic parishes and had no luck. Has anyone else come accross this family? By 1871 they have changed the family name to HORAN which was a common name from Mayo in the Lancashire coalfields at this time. -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.12.8/455 - Release Date: 22/09/2006

If this was the scenario wouldn't every entry have an x? I have seen superintendent registrars fill in the details.This is known as a "true copy" The details are given exactly as they are shown in the original.Usually the x is accompanied with "the mark of" __________ . I have entries back to 1732 and yes those that make their mark are illiterate. I have come across some researchers who seem embarassed to find ancestors who are illiterate....... this was purely the times and nothing to be embarassed about.I even had one researcher who asked me "could the person have had an injured hand?" LOL I think it very important we question everything.... but we must be able to read the facts as they are. All the best, Kevin, Co Cork. > > Yes, for sure there are nearly all signed by the mark 'X', but I can not = > > believe that such a mark meant it was always a result of illiteracy on the = > > part of the informants. > > Consider this probable scenario of a time before the invention of = > > photo-copiers and computer digitisation as to how the process of = > > registrations might have been accomplished: > > The informants of a birth or death, or marriage (in which case the required = > > form was completed by the officiating priest or minister) reported the even= > t = > > in person at the local registration office where they made their statement= > s = > > which was duly recorded by the local registrar or one of his staff, and the= > n = > > signed by the informants - if they could write their name. > > These individual declarations made at local registration offices were then = > > sent to the town wherein the area Superintendent's registration office was = > > located. There they were transcribed onto a large folio, and , at the end o= > f = > > that quarter year, were sent as a batch to the General Registry Office = > > (GRO) Dublin, where they were again transcribed alphabetically in a large = > > folio when all the original individual quarterly returns from the many = > > Superintendents' registration districts were received. > > In consequence, when one obtains a copy from the GRO, or a local = > > Superintendents' district office, it is understandable that the original = > > signature of informants who could write, could not possibly appear on such = > a = > > copy. So, that office at the time of issuing a certificate, the clerk had t= > o = > > write the name of the informing party and place an 'x' on the signature lin= > e = > > over the original informants names. (I had occasion a few years ago to visi= > t = > > the Superintendents office in Limerick city and witnessed the clerk = > > transcribe the information I had requested from a large folio onto a blank = > > form of certificate). > > If the above scenario is what happened then one will understand the missing = > > signature and its substitution by an 'x' at a time when no one even dreamt = > > about a device that would make 'de facto' copies. > > I have copied this to other lists in the hope that someone more informed = > > might add or detract from my supposition on the matter. > > ***** Reply to the LIST ONLY - Please ***** > ***** Thanks for your consideration ***** > > P=E1draig M=F3r, > An Sean Gabhar > ----- Original Message ----- = > > From: "kevin " <kevinmcc59@eircom.net> > To: <irl-cork@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 7:18 PM > Subject: Re: Irish Birthdates > > > > Hello Dolores, Sorry about the slip up of course it's 1864. You may very = > > > well find yours inconsistent but that hardly means you can include all of = > > > Ireland. I have encountered the same problem with Eng. and Wales as I = > > > said. > > I can assure you from my experience that it was illiteracy > > compare marriage certs and entries.....the old x. was very prevalent.As = > > > for rounding up and down that was only used in the UK census 1841 as for = > > > the US i do not know, Regards,Kevin. > > > >> > >> Sorry I offended , but after 25 years of research every document and = > > >> census I have on my lines their ages never agree. Civil Registration = > > >> started in 1864 not 1868. I was merely speaking from my experience even = > > >> up to 1940's. Dolores > > > = > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRL-CORK-request@root= > sweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and = > the body of the message > www.ancestralservices.co.uk ----------------------------------------------------------------- Find the home of your dreams with eircom net property Sign up for email alerts now http://www.eircom.net/propertyalerts

And I believe often that the X was not because the person was illiteratre but because they were literate in a different language. As pointed out before many people had Irish as their only language not English, and the English insisted that births be recorded in English. Cheryl ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pádraig Mór Ó Gealagain" <padraigogealagain@rogers.com> To: <irl-cork@rootsweb.com> Cc: <irl-limerick@rootsweb.com>; <irl-clare@rootsweb.com>; <cotipperary@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, September 23, 2006 10:57 AM Subject: Re: Irish Birth Certificates having an 'X' for Signatures > > I can assure you from my experience that it was illiteracy, compare > marriage certs and entries.....the old x. was very prevalent...> > > Yes, for sure there are nearly all signed by the mark 'X', but I can not > believe that such a mark meant it was always a result of illiteracy on > the part of the informants. > > Consider this probable scenario of a time before the invention of > photo-copiers and computer digitisation as to how the process of > registrations might have been accomplished: >

Perhaps its just a case that he wasn't too keen on him.he could of been a drunkard or gambler and he knew whatever he left it would be wasted. As for our Irish history lesson in our "centuries old tradition of fostering children"I think we can lose the run of ourselves..... "warring factions?" Are we talking 1800 Ireland or the 1400's? regards,Kevin. Co Cork. > > Fostering of children is a centuries old Irish tradition. Sometimes children > were fostered by the parents' siblings or near cousins, while other times > they were fostered by known 'enemies', almost as hostages to assure some > degree of peace between warring factions. Just as with fostering > relationships today, some foster siblings would have been very close and > treated as true brothers and sisters while others would have been barely > tolerated, with every possible variation between the two extremes. > > Rather than comparing John Finn to the widow and children, my suggestion > would be to compare him to James' birth brothers and sisters. If John was > mentioned and known birth siblings were not, or if the birth siblings fared > worse than John then it's probably safe to conclude that John and James were > fairly close. > > L > > > -----Original Message----- > From: irl-cork-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:irl-cork-bounces@rootsweb.com]On Behalf Of Judie > Sent: Friday, September 22, 2006 10:04 PM > To: IRL-CORK-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: Foster Brother. > > > Hello everyone, > > I have a will written by James Thornhill in 1796 wherein he leaves a sum of > money to his "foster brother," John Finn. It was a small amount, equivalent > to that bequeathed to his staff and much less than the legacies left to his > wife and children. It seems to me that John was not a brother in the way > that a foster brother would be today - if this were the case I feel that > he'd have fared better in the will. > > Is anyone able to enlighten me as to the probable relationship between James > Thornhill and John Finn, in Cork, in the late 18th century? > > Judie Morris, > Victoria, Australia. > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > IRL-CORK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRL-CORK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > www.ancestralservices.co.uk ----------------------------------------------------------------- Find the home of your dreams with eircom net property Sign up for email alerts now http://www.eircom.net/propertyalerts

Greetings, Let's consider this: An Irish person in 1750 has learned to read and write. Will all his or her descendants, for all time, also be literate? No, not necessarily! There were periods of time in Ireland when several generations of a family had been fully literate, but then times changed, and their descendants had little or no access to schools. The young ones had to learn from a difficult daily "school of life" as best they could. Food and shelter took priority. Also, there could be variation within a family, such as only enough resources for one child to go to school. Or only the sons. So, if you find several generations of "x-marking" individuals in the country they emigrated to, such as the US, don't be surprised to find signatures or other evidence of formal education, farther back in their Irish ancestors. It can be discouraging to find x-marks, or to see those census column checkmarks for "Can't read, can't write." That's a good time to remember that the Irish prized learning far back in their history, and reading and writing were not the only ways that learning was passed down to us. Barb Glassel

Hello everyone, I have a will written by James Thornhill in 1796 wherein he leaves a sum of money to his "foster brother," John Finn. It was a small amount, equivalent to that bequeathed to his staff and much less than the legacies left to his wife and children. It seems to me that John was not a brother in the way that a foster brother would be today - if this were the case I feel that he'd have fared better in the will. Is anyone able to enlighten me as to the probable relationship between James Thornhill and John Finn, in Cork, in the late 18th century? Judie Morris, Victoria, Australia.