The fact of the beauty and culture of the country existed doesn't mean they weren't dirt poor. If they hadn't been dirt poor then fewer of them would have died of starvation during the Great Famine and all the other famines and crop failures and bloody purges. Appreciating the culture, the art, the language and the resilienceof the people doesn't alleviate their financial situation. Read a history book for heaven's sake. My people came from Mayo and they were DIRT POOR Doesn't mean they weren't good people and it isn't a value judgement. Beth Cherkowsky http://members.aol.com/efc999/donahue.htm http://www.squidoo.com/donahuefamilyhistory/ Bradley, Donahue/Donohue, Boylan, McHugh, Manning/Mannion/Mangan, Barrett, Burke, Walsh & Forrester in Co. Mayo, Fountas, & Cerkauskas in US, Ireland, Greece, Lithuania & worldwide > -----Original Message----- > From: irl-co-donegal-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:irl-co-donegal- > bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Catherine Billups > Sent: Thursday, July 03, 2008 3:13 AM > To: <boydgray26@utvinternet.com> > Cc: 'IRL-Donegal - List'; janemar1e@yahoo.com; 'IRL-Donegaleire-L'; 'IRL-CO- > Donegal'; 'Siobhan' > Subject: Re: [IRL-CO-DONEGAL] [DONEGALEIRE] Mevagh Church Graveyard - > CtyDonegal > > Perhaps you should read 'How the Irish saved Civilization' by Thomas > Cahill if you really believe your remark about Ireland before the EU. > My great grandfather McGroarty was born in Donegal and if you read a > bit about the history of his surname you will get an idea of the > history and culture of this magnificent country. Visit the museums in > Dublin and the archaeological sites throughout the country and you > will learn about a country which did not need the EU to be one of the > most civilized. > > I have been traveling to Ireland since the 1960s and found an amazing > country with a rich cultural past. Hardly third world. > > Catherine Riley Billups > 26 Frazione Zerbo > 27040 Montu' Beccaria (PV) > Italy > > tel (39) 0385 262404 > Noto (39) 0931 836732 > billups@italiamac.it > > > > On Jul 2, 2008, at 11:36 PM, <boydgray26@utvinternet.com> > <boydgray26@utvinternet.com > > wrote: > > > Very few of my ancestors graves have stones. Does than make them > > repressed > > and impoverished? I think not. Naw - they were just too mean to > > waste the > > money on a headstone. > > > > (And when they did, all they said was "The Brewsters of Dromore". Yea > > thanks, folks.) > > > > Actually, I don't often get cross with what is said in this list but > > I do > > object to my country being called a Third World Country pre EU. > > Simmer > > simmer. Try to remember that some Irish people frequent these lists > > too. > > > > Boyd Gray > > > > http://familytrees.genopro.com/boydgray26/Boyd/default.htm > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: donegaleire-bounces@rootsweb.com > > [mailto:donegaleire-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Siobhan > > Sent: 02 July 2008 22:24 > > To: janemar1e@yahoo.com; IRL-CO-Donegal; IRL-Donegal - List; > > IRL-Donegaleire-L; hiflyte > > Subject: Re: [DONEGALEIRE] Mevagh Church Graveyard - Cty Donegal > > > > Well, speaking as a fellow American, I’ve only studied less than two > > dozen > > cemeteries here in Ireland thus but I have come across older > > cemeteries > > certainly. I have 13 others I've shot and begun transcribing, in > > varying > > stages of completion, and the older stones I’ve photographed, dating > > from > > the 1700s and 1800s can often be very hard to read so it’s taking > > time to > > decipher. A lot of them I can’t even read with the naked eye and > > instead > > rely on my digital computer software to help me make out what they > > say. > > Even so, reading a single stone can sometimes take me the better > > part of an > > hour, sometimes more, but I stick with it because I know they’ll only > > continue to deteriorate. > > > > This was an extremely impoverished country for most of its history > > (I read > > somewhere recently Ireland has suffered arguably the longest > > repressive > > foreign occupation in history) and many of my own family members are > > in > > unmarked plots, not because everyone figured they’d remember who was > > buried > > where but because they couldn’t afford markers, or markers that > > would stand > > the test of time. You’ll see even in more recent times, for > > example, in > > this particular cemetery (Mevagh), that a number of markers were > > handwritten. Most of we Americans don’t really appreciate the fact > > that, > > pre-EU, this country was considered to be a Third World country. > > Additionally, many of the death registers have been lost, damaged or > > destroyed over the years. > > > > What I have come across mostly though, and I’m guessing that it’s > > because of > > the winds, boggy soil and wet conditions, is that many of the older > > gravestones have been fallen face down, or partially or even > > completely > > submerged. Many have literally sunk below the surface of the ground > > and are > > nothing more than lumps in nettle-ridden, overgrown grass. Perhaps > > the fact > > that it’s an island may also account for the extreme weathering of > > existing > > stones. I’ve seen stones as recent as the 1980s and 1990s that are > > barely > > legible anymore due to (I’m guessing) airborne sand and debris in > > the wind. > > The faces of the stones just wear off. But these are just guesses > > on my > > part. > > > > That’s actually why, albeit temporarily, I’ve joined the folks who, > > like > > Jane (who moderates Y-IRL and has contributed a mind-boggling amount > > of data > > via her website for us amateur genealogists) feel the urgency to > > preserve > > the information on these decaying stones. Some may not seem old now > > but > > they sure will to the generations who follow us, who’ll never > > otherwise get > > a chance to read > > and/or see these stones in legible condition. Fortunately, I'm pretty > > certain that, if only for its Catholic origins, the Irish don't mess > > with > > their cemeteries, they don't re-site them or re-use the stones. :o) > > > > > > Siobhán > > > > > > ----- Original Message ---- > > > > From: Jane Ward <janemar1e@yahoo.com> > > To: IRL-CO-Donegal <IRL-CO-DONEGAL-L@rootsweb.com>; IRL-Donegal - > List > > <IRL-DONEGAL-L@rootsweb.com>; IRL-Donegaleire-L > > <DONEGALEIRE-L@rootsweb.com>; hiflyte <hiflyte@telus.net> > > Sent: Wednesday, July 2, 2008 8:57:48 PM > > Subject: Re: [DONEGALEIRE] Mevagh Church Graveyard - Cty Donegal > > > > A question, from an ignorant American. > > All of the graves seem to be fairly recent. What happened to earlier > > burials? Older graveyards? > > Our local cemeteries in Michigan go back to the 1850's and I'm sure > > I've > > seen earlier gravestones on our travels. > > Have the stones been re-used? melted away from acid-rain? or no-one > > thought > > it necessary to mark the graves since "everyone" knew where they were? > > > > > > --- On Wed, 7/2/08, hiflyte <hiflyte@telus.net> wrote: > > > >> From: hiflyte <hiflyte@telus.net> > >> Subject: [DONEGALEIRE] Mevagh Church Graveyard - Cty Donegal > >> To: "IRL-CO-Donegal" <IRL-CO-DONEGAL-L@rootsweb.com>, "IRL-Donegal > - > >> List" <IRL-DONEGAL-L@rootsweb.com>, "IRL-Donegaleire-L" > >> <DONEGALEIRE-L@rootsweb.com> > >> Date: Wednesday, July 2, 2008, 11:54 AM List Members, > >> > >> Another gem from our roving Irish reporter --- > >> > >> Siobhán, Gallagher has contributed the cemetery file for Mevagh > >> Church > >> Graveyard in Cty Donegal. > >> > >> "Mevagh Church Graveyard is located on Co. Donegal’s northern > >> coastline on an unnamed road (unnamed according to my GPS anyway), > >> along the signposted Atlantic Drive in Rosapenna, GPS coordinates > >> N55.21062, W7.81094" > >> > >> I wish to thank Siobhán for this addition to the website. > >> > >> You can view the file at: > >> http://tinyurl.com/57w5zv > >> > >> The file will be uploaded to the IGPA /Donegal website --- soon. > >> http://www.igp-web.com/IGPArchives/ > >> > >> Have a nice day > >> Bob > >> Cdn > >> > >> When replying to a digest post, quote only the specific text to which > >> you are replying, removing the rest of the digest from your reply. > >> Also, remember to change the subject of your reply so that it > >> coincides with the message subject to which you are replying. > >> > >> TO VIEW PREVIOUS EMAILS BY SUBJECT, GO TO THE THREADED > ARCHIVES AT > >> http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/DONEGALEIRE/ > >> > >> > >> TO VIEW PREVIOUS EMAILS BY DATES AND SUBJECT GO TO THE > SEARCHABLE > >> ARCHIVES AT > >> http://archiver.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/search?path=DONEGALEIRE > >> > >> > >> SOME HELPFUL WEBSITES: > >> Donegal Genealogy Resource (Lindel's Site) > >> http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~donegal/ > >> Donegaleire Genealogy Links & Data > >> http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~donegaleire/ > >> Bob's Donegal Ireland Genealogy > >> http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~hiflyte/ > >> > >> ------------------------------- > >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > >> DONEGALEIRE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > When replying to a digest post, quote only the specific text to > > which you > > are replying, removing the rest of the digest from your reply. Also, > > remember to change the subject of your reply so that it coincides > > with the > > message subject to which you are replying. > > > > TO VIEW PREVIOUS EMAILS BY SUBJECT, GO TO THE THREADED > ARCHIVES AT > > http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/DONEGALEIRE/ > > > > > > TO VIEW PREVIOUS EMAILS BY DATES AND SUBJECT GO TO THE > SEARCHABLE > > ARCHIVES > > AT http://archiver.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/search?path=DONEGALEIRE > > > > SOME HELPFUL WEBSITES: > > Donegal Genealogy Resource (Lindel's Site) > > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~donegal/ > > Donegaleire Genealogy Links & Data > > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~donegaleire/ > > Bob's Donegal Ireland Genealogy > > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~hiflyte/ > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > DONEGALEIRE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > When replying to a digest post, quote only the specific text to > > which you > > are replying, removing the rest of the digest from your reply. Also, > > remember to change the subject of your reply so that it coincides > > with the > > message subject to which you are replying. > > > > TO VIEW PREVIOUS EMAILS BY SUBJECT, GO TO THE THREADED > ARCHIVES AT > > http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/DONEGALEIRE/ > > > > > > TO VIEW PREVIOUS EMAILS BY DATES AND SUBJECT GO TO THE > SEARCHABLE > > ARCHIVES > > AT http://archiver.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/search?path=DONEGALEIRE > > > > SOME HELPFUL WEBSITES: > > Donegal Genealogy Resource (Lindel's Site) > > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~donegal/ > > Donegaleire Genealogy Links & Data > > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~donegaleire/ > > Bob's Donegal Ireland Genealogy > > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~hiflyte/ > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > DONEGALEIRE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > When replying to a digest post, quote only the specific text to > > which you are replying, removing the rest of the digest from your > > reply. Also, remember to change the subject of your reply so that it > > coincides with the message subject to which you are replying. > > > > TO VIEW PREVIOUS EMAILS BY SUBJECT, GO TO THE THREADED > ARCHIVES AT > > http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/DONEGALEIRE/ > > > > > > TO VIEW PREVIOUS EMAILS BY DATES AND SUBJECT GO TO THE > SEARCHABLE > > ARCHIVES AT http://archiver.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/search?path=DONEGALEIRE > > > > SOME HELPFUL WEBSITES: > > Donegal Genealogy Resource (Lindel's Site) > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~donegal/ > > Donegaleire Genealogy Links & Data > > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~donegaleire/ > > Bob's Donegal Ireland Genealogy > > http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~hiflyte/ > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to DONEGALEIRE- > request@rootsweb.com > > with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and > > the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRL-CO-DONEGAL- > request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject > and the body of the message

But which country didn't have vast swathes of poverty stricken working class folks in the 19th century? Have you ever read "How Green Was My Valley" by Richard Llewellyn, about the crushing poverty in Welsh mining communities, or "The Scots Quair" by Lewis Grassic Gibbon about poverty stricken Scottish crofters, or "The Ragged Trousered Phimanthropist" by Robert Tressell about poverty stricken English painters in Hastings? I think we are in danger of losing sight of the original question here. There IS no shortage of old tombstones in Donegal. No more so than anywhere else in these islands. Just look in the right places - mainly Church of Ireland churches, which are older than Presbyterian or Catholic churches. There are plenty of stones left by the Victorian middle classes in Donegal, just as in England or Scotland or Wales, but ordinary working class folk, no matter which country they lived in, rarely left stones until the 20th century. For a start, they were illiterate - have you never looked at 19th century marriage records and seen all those big Xes? Not much point in marking a stone when you couldn't read it! And secondly, yes, agricultural labourers, which is what they mostly were - mine certainly were - they were dirt poor - just as they were everywhere else in the world in the 19th century. And they most certainly did not sink into any bogs. Donegal has some of the finest agricultural land in Ireland in the Laggan Valley. As for the EU, most Irish people will be aware that in the controversial referendum held only four weeks ago, the people of Ireland brought the EU juggernaut to a juddering halt by voting NO to a new constitution for the EU. Irish people believed it would have damaged Ireland's neutrality and brought about unwanted social changes and too much immigration, but they also voted No because they had been told by the French and the Germans that they, the Irish, should be thankful for all the benefits that the EU brought us, and vote YES. We are a cussed folk, I'm afraid! And proud too. The French and the Germans now wish to press on without Ireland, and, I am sure you will be struck by the irony here, it is likely to be the British who will ride to Ireland's rescue and veto such a move. So, the EU is a very touchy subject here at the moment. Best not mentioned. Especially as it is off topic! Boyd Gray http://familytrees.genopro.com/boydgray26/Boyd/default.htm -----Original Message----- From: Beth Cherkowsky [mailto:bcherkowsky@comcast.net] Sent: 04 July 2008 19:55 To: irl-co-donegal@rootsweb.com; boydgray26@utvinternet.com Cc: 'IRL-Donegal - List'; janemar1e@yahoo.com; 'IRL-Donegaleire-L'; 'IRL-CO-Donegal'; 'Siobhan' Subject: RE: [IRL-CO-DONEGAL] [DONEGALEIRE] Mevagh Church Graveyard - CtyDonegal The fact of the beauty and culture of the country existed doesn't mean they weren't dirt poor. If they hadn't been dirt poor then fewer of them would have died of starvation during the Great Famine and all the other famines and crop failures and bloody purges. SNIP