Can any Clare expert help me with this -- Cenel Fermaic and the O'Deas traditionally have been listed as Dalcassians by genealogists and historians. Doing some O'Dea research, I came across the book "Celtic chiefdom, Celtic state" by Bettina Arnold and D. Blair Gibson. They challenge the Dalcassian identity for Cenel Fermaic and the O'Deas. They say, p. 123, that Cenel Fermaic was swallowed up by Dal Cais: "This chiefdom contained the ramages of Ui Chuinn, Cenel Baeth and Ui Dedaid under the leadership of the latter. A genealogy was concocted which had the ramages of Cenel Fermaic sharing common descent with the Dal Cais (O'Brien 1976:152 A 41). Common descent with Dal Cais was possible but unlikely for Cinel Fermaic. The personal names given to individuals in Irish aristocratic lineages were usually restricted to a small set, and used repeatedly over long periods of time. The names of the chieftains given in the genealogies of Cenel Fermaic show no affinity with those of Dal Cais, but rather indicate a relationship with chiefdoms to the south, perhaps Ciarraige or Corcu Baiscinn (Gibson 1990: 361) ..." The (O'Brien 1976: 152 A 41) and (Gibson 1990: 361) citations may more fully explain the personal name argument, hopefully with examples, but unfortunately I photocopied only a few pages of the book and neglected to get the complete citations from the bibliography. Is anyone familiar with that argument and/or the citations? And/or, where do I find genealogies for Ui Chuinn, Cenel Baeth, Ciarraige and Corcu Baiscinn? I already have several for the Ui Dedaid line. I have seen a similar argument that seemed to make sense made by Liam O Buachalla in the Cork Historical and Archaeological Journal with reference to clans such as the Muscraige and Ciarriage. If someone can point me in the right direction I will be appreciative -- Neil Hogan

Hi Neil, Some time ago I corresponded on-line in one of the rootsweb lists with a woman named Janet Crawford. She has done rather extensive work researching the ancient lines. While I am reluctant to quote her here, what I recall she said, is similar and applied to the Macs who she believes are Eoganachts rather than Dalcassion. I apologize in advance if I have misstated her position here. :-) One thing for sure, the Macs and the O'Briens had many people who swore allegiance to their chieftain. Brian Boru first proposed the Irish use surnames, sometime after 1000 AD. I believe any who were loyal to a particular a chieftain just took the proper surname to continue that loyalty. While I read the Mac book, and it does say the Macs are Dalcassion, however, this was written in 1896 and that was the belief at the time. I would suggest you try to contact Janet through the IRL-Clare or IRL-Ireland rootsweb list. If she cannot help you, I would think she could point you in the right direction. [ Maybe she is even subscribed to this list? ] Regards, Jim McNamara ----- Original Message ----- From: "neil hogan" <neil0212@sbcglobal.net> To: <irl-clare-projects@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, June 07, 2007 10:30 AM Subject: [IRL-CLARE-PROJECTS] Ui Fermaic > Can any Clare expert help me with this -- > Cenel Fermaic and the O'Deas traditionally have been listed as > Dalcassians by genealogists and historians. Doing some O'Dea research, I > came across the book "Celtic chiefdom, Celtic state" by Bettina Arnold and > D. Blair Gibson. > They challenge the Dalcassian identity for Cenel Fermaic and the O'Deas. > They say, p. 123, that Cenel Fermaic was swallowed up by Dal Cais: "This > chiefdom contained the ramages of Ui Chuinn, Cenel Baeth and Ui Dedaid > under the leadership of the latter. A genealogy was concocted which had > the ramages of Cenel Fermaic sharing common descent with the Dal Cais > (O'Brien 1976:152 A 41). Common descent with Dal Cais was possible but > unlikely for Cinel Fermaic. The personal names given to individuals in > Irish aristocratic lineages were usually restricted to a small set, and > used repeatedly over long periods of time. The names of the chieftains > given in the genealogies of Cenel Fermaic show no affinity with those of > Dal Cais, but rather indicate a relationship with chiefdoms to the south, > perhaps Ciarraige or Corcu Baiscinn (Gibson 1990: 361) ..." > The (O'Brien 1976: 152 A 41) and (Gibson 1990: 361) citations may more > fully explain the personal name argument, hopefully with examples, but > unfortunately I photocopied only a few pages of the book and neglected to > get the complete citations from the bibliography. > Is anyone familiar with that argument and/or the citations? And/or, where > do I find genealogies for Ui Chuinn, Cenel Baeth, Ciarraige and Corcu > Baiscinn? I already have several for the Ui Dedaid line. > I have seen a similar argument that seemed to make sense made by Liam O > Buachalla in the Cork Historical and Archaeological Journal with reference > to clans such as the Muscraige and Ciarriage. > If someone can point me in the right direction I will be appreciative -- > Neil Hogan > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > IRL-CLARE-PROJECTS-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message