(For padraigogealagain) The Genealogical Office in Dublin has nothing to do with heraldry, clans or chiefs. They are a genealogical research organization. The Chief Heralds Office (which is an extra duty to the National Librarian in Dublin) handles heraldry and up to 2001, Chiefs of Name. They do not recognize Chiefs of Name at this time after they found one of six (MacCarthy Mor) as a fraud which cast questions on the other five that were confirmed between 1989-95. My chief's uncle was confirmed as Chief of Name in 1945 by Edward MacLysaght. The Chief Heralds Office stand on Chief recognition can be seen here: http://www.nli.ie/pdfs/Chief%20of%20name.pdf 'The' O'Neill currently lives in Portugal and does use this address (The). Remember, 'The' is not a title but only designates a position as senior in their line. The O'Brien's pedigree is about 39 feet long and is currently held in the National Library. It shows all the Chiefs right up to the present. My chief is 34th generation from Brian Boru, High King of Ireland. All O'Briens would love to trace their roots back to this line, but the odds are against us. Because their are so many branches over the last 1000 years, there is no way I, or most others, will ever connect. The Clans of Ireland, Ltd (http://www.theclansofireland.ie/) not to be confused with Clans of Ireland (http://www.clansofireland.org/ , http://www.irishclans.com/) does not recognize chiefs. They only verify Irish Clans and help them organize themselves. They do not recognize Irish societies such as Clan Cian or other pre-surname population groups. They are chartered with the Irish Government for this purpose. At present there are five chiefs in question as a result of the MacCarthy Mor affair. Once the Genealogy & Heraldry Bill 2006 is passed, these five will have to resubmit their paperwork for recognition. This time it will be more extensive, not like the cursory check they had the first time. I presume some of them won't make the cut. As far as Clan Doyle's website, let me clarify some things. Here is what you read: 'Since the establishment of the Clans of Ireland Office there are now about 150 Clans registered and a number of these Clans mistakenly use incorrect pre-nominals (which are in actuality ancient titles) when appointing their Clan Chieftains. The list that appears below is acknowledged by the Irish Government, through the Office of the Chief Herald, as being the genealogically pre-eminent representatives of the ancient Gaelic families and their titles. Only these Irish aristocrats may use the ancient Gaelic form of address of 'The', which is equivalent to the European Princely title of 'His Serene Highness'.' The Clans of Ireland Office they refer to is The Clans of Ireland. Ltd. There is no office. There are over 130 clans registered. As far as appointing clan chieftains are concerned, The Clans of Ireland, Ltd has no authority in that area. That is strictly up to each individual clan. However, the proper addresses are: 1. 'The' - Chief of Name as verified by the Chief Heralds Office. 2. 'Hon' - Elected Chief but not Chief of Name. Does not have to be verified by the Chief Heralds Office. The list of Irish Chiefs that appears below 'ARE NOT' recognized by the Irish Government. The list of Irish Chiefs of Name is correct except for those who have died or those in question. There are currently 16 Chiefs on the Standing Council of Irish Chiefs and Chieftains. There is NO government agency that recognizes Irish Chiefs. As stated earlier, the Chief Heralds Office is an extra duty position for the librarian at the National Library in Dublin. The National Library is funded through an agency in the Irish Government but has no authority from the Irish Government. The other problem with Chief lines is that many Chiefs were elected and not inherited. Under Brehon law, the Chief was elected. It was not a hereditary position unless the ruling family had the power to do so. Those who try to claim the chief position under Brehon law are out of luck as there are no records to support any of those elections. With the passing of the bill in the senate, all of this will become a government function and we will get definite guidelines then. Mike ---- Original Message ----- From: "padraigogealagain" <padraigogealagain@rogers.com> To: <irl-limerick@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, September 11, 2006 11:45 AM Subject: Re: [IRL-LIMERICK] The Arms of Irish Septs- An Explanation (Pt.2-final) > All you say, Mike, is probably true BUT I have the original letter that I > received in reply to my queries, and the answer they gave is absolute in > that there is NO authority ( the key word ) in Genealogy or Heraldry for > the > use of 'THE" as a descendant of a Clan chief - the letter doesn't say that > the title is even recognised by the Chief Herald. > > Interesting though, how anyone can support direct line to a chief of Sept > since the Celtic order began the beginning of its end after the 1601 > battle > of Kinsale that consequently led to the flight of many of the Earls ( a > conferred English title, as you likely know). The great chief O'Neill > later > denounced it as did many other. Those who acquiesced to it were only ' > feathering their own nests' and to heck with the other members of the > tribal > sept who had common rights under Brehon law to Sept territory. Its > remarkable how they managed to have proof of descent considering the > majority on these Lists are up against 'Brick Walls' trying to root to an > ancestor in the 1850's, for example - let alone one who lived in the mid > 17th. century. > > It has to be recognised that many of the Sept scribes doctored the > genealogy > of the chiefs at their banquet oral recitals. > > Many of the so-called Head of Clans debunked based on false genealogies. I > wonder if you are referring to the title granted by The Clans of Ireland > Office? > > See: http://www.doyle.com.au/chiefs.html for general information. There > are > many more, but I am trying to find one that helped debunk some contenders > to > Ancestral chiefs' titles. > > Finally, you state that Burke's General Armory 1884 is an English > publication - Of course, it is, the Irish chiefs didn't have Arms. But are > you referring to Kennedy's Book of Arms (1816) ? >