----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry Brennan" <bbs.ennis@eircom.net> To: <irl-clare@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2006 7:58 AM Subject: Re: [GIRL-CLARE] Family Coat Of Arms: > Came across this site in my travels: > > http://www.heraldry.ws/index.html > > Coats of Arms from Ireland and around the World by Eddie Geoghegan. > This site is a gallery of coats of arms or heraldic graphics. It is FREE. > You may browse as much as you want for as long as you want. No membership > is > required and there is no limit to how many coats of arms graphics you may > view. > Regards: >Larry. Well, this is a nice site, but I think FREE means browsing only, although the webpage also refers to FREE blazons from around the world. I wonder what he means by 'FREE', because you likely know, there are no Generic Free blazons. This, on question to them, was verified for me several years ago by the Genealogical Office, Dublin. They pointed out that Coats are owned only by the person or family for whom they were granted. The Genealogical office will create one for anyone, in accordance with one's design, provided it doesn't clash with another person's one - but it is very expensive - about $5-6 thousand dollars. For commercial enterprises it is a tax write- off, but not for us poor plebes, even if we could afford the cost Also very interesting in that site was this foot note excerpt about the book of O'Hart's Genealogies : "..."Irish Pedigrees or the Origin and Stem of the Irish Nation", by John O'Hart is one of the best known Irish genealogical publications in the world. The first edition appeared in 1876, but was followed by several subsequent editions that added greatly to the overall size of the work. The most quoted edition was published in New York in 1923, twenty years after the author's death. It is worth mentioning here that the original work did not include and heraldic (coat of arms) information and that this was added to posthumous publications by unscrupulous publishers, presumably to increase sales. In general, O'Hart is a dubious source, at best, for such information (see quote below from Edward MacLysaght in regard to this topic). John O'Hart was born in Crossmolina, Co. Mayo, in 1824. He received an excellent education with the intention of joining the priesthood. However, he instead spent two years in the constabulary (the police), after which he was employed by the Commissioners of National Education in Ireland from 1845, the first year of the Famine. He became an Associate in Arts at the Queen's University, and thereafter he was an active member of several scholarly societies. He was an avid genealogist and took a keen interest in Irish history, despite never receiving formal training as an historian. Politically he was an Irish nationalist, and in religious matters, a committed Catholic. Both of these factors permeated his work. He died in 1902 in Clontarf, Co. Dublin, at the age of 78. O'Hart used many sources to compile the information that appears in his major work. His principal sources were Gaelic genealogies, like those of O'Clery, MacFirbis and O'Farrell. Along with the Gaelic annals, especially the Annals of the Four Masters, O'Hart was able to 'reconstruct' the medieval and ancient pedigrees that appear here. He also used later sources, like the works of Burke, Collins, Harris, Lodge and Ware to extend these lineages into the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries. But arguably the most important information contained in these genealogies came where O'Hart gathered the details directly from the families concerned, often from private papers or family tradition. These sections concern the later period, particularly post 1800, and are good for many specific localities like western Co. Clare. There are two types of genealogies in O'Hart; the genealogies of the Gaelic families and the genealogies of Anglo-Norman and other later settlers. O'Hart made one important distinction in his treatment of these. Irish mythology records that every family was descended from a certain Milesius of Spain who in about 1700 BC led his followers to invade and conquer Ireland. The Christian monks who wrote these genealogies down in the 9th century, 2,500 years after Milesius, also added their own beliefs. So they recorded that Milesius was the 36th in descent from Adam! O'Hart, being both an ardent believer in the Gaelic myths and Christianity, followed their example. In his Gaelic genealogies a number representing the generation of descent from Adam precedes every generation. By contrast the Anglo-Normans and later invaders made no such claims, so O'Hart's genealogies of these families do not include these numbers. O'Hart showed, probably incorrectly, that every Gaelic family was descended from four of Milesius's family. These were his three sons, Heber, Ir and Heremon, and his uncle Ithe. These four were considered the 'stem' lines of the genealogies that followed. While he undertook a great deal of research, using the majority of available published sources, many Gaelic scholars have superseded his work over the last 100 years. He was not familiar with the abundant unpublished Gaelic manuscript sources available. These have shown that many of his genealogies are incorrect for the years prior to 1600 AD. Furthermore, O'Hart was not a professional historian or genealogist, and had little training in using the esoteric sources he consulted. As a consequence he misunderstood a great deal about Gaelic society and culture, a world which had largely disappeared from Ireland long before he put pen to paper. He was also credulous in using the sources he did consult, believing that the myths were fact. Despite these limitations, careful use of his work can be very productive. His genealogies for the years after 1600 have great value, and are often unavailable elsewhere. He was also able to consult many sources which have since been destroyed or lost. In the words of Edward MacLysaght, Ireland's most famous authority on the history of surnames, he 'made use of it almost daily'. In relation to O'Hart and other similar publications, MacLysaght, also warns: "The subject of Irish families is one in which much interest is evinced, but the popular books usually consulted and regarded as authoritative, particularly in America, are in fact unreliable. The inaccurate and misleading information thus imparted with cumulative effect is, however, much more deplorable in the armorial [coats of arms] sphere than in the genealogical. It is an indisputable fact that the publication presenting colour plates of Irish arms which is probably most widely consulted is no less than seventy per cent inaccurate, not only in mere detail, but often in points of primary importance and of an elementary kind. Apart from their many grotesque heraldic blunders the compilers of this work seem to have had a sort of rule of thumb; if they could not find arms for one Irish sept they looked for the name of another somewhat resembling it in sound: thus, for example, they coolly assigned the arms of Boylan to Boland. This frequently resulted in the arms of some purely English family being inserted in their book of "Irish Arms" the Saxon Huggins being equated with O'Higgins, and so on. When this arbitrary method failed them they fell back on the arms of some great Irish sept. To quote one instance of this: Gleeson, Noonan and McFadden are all given the arms of O'Brien, though none of these septs had any connexion whatever with the O'Briens or with each other. Consequently many Americans of Irish descent are in good faith using erroneous and often English arms derived from the spurious source in question. A certain cachet has been given to this because, in the more recent editions of O'Hart's Irish Pedigrees, these same coloured plates have been inserted as if they were an integral part of O'Hart's book. The serious genealogist uses O'Hart with caution, if at all, for he is a far from reliable authority except for the quite modern period. John O'Hart, however, undoubtedly did a vast amount of research, no matter how he used the information he acquired: I know that some of these errors of ascription can actually be traced to him, but it is surely an injustice to him that his well-known name should be used as a cover for the propagation of false and often ludicrous heraldic statements."

Boy, I could go on for hours on this one. But, as stated in my previous message about coats of arms, only the registrar is authorized to use the coat of arms and it may only be passed down through first sons. When the first sons line dies out, the arms stop. At present, a simple coat of arms through the Chief Heralds Office runs 3000 Euro. A reduction in cost will be announced after the current Bill pending in the Irish Senate (Heraldry & Genealogy Bill - 2006) passes. Although there are many mixed feelings about O'Hart, there is a lot of information to work with. When you combine it with Keating, Four Masters, O'Laughlin, MacLysaght and others, you come out with a better understanding of history. I will point out that although Gleeson does not have any relation to O'Brien, McFadden (variation of Padden) and Noonan are cousins to the O'Briens as they all descend from Cormac Cas (DalgCais). Their arms are different than O'Brien. Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "padraigogealagain" <padraigogealagain@rogers.com> To: <irl-clare@rootsweb.com>; <IRL-LIMERICK@rootsweb.com>; <cotipperary@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2006 8:28 AM Subject: Re: [IRL-CLARE] Family Coat Of Arms: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Larry Brennan" <bbs.ennis@eircom.net> > To: <irl-clare@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2006 7:58 AM > Subject: Re: [GIRL-CLARE] Family Coat Of Arms: > > >> Came across this site in my travels: >> >> http://www.heraldry.ws/index.html >> >> Coats of Arms from Ireland and around the World by Eddie Geoghegan. >> This site is a gallery of coats of arms or heraldic graphics. It is FREE. >> You may browse as much as you want for as long as you want. No membership >> is >> required and there is no limit to how many coats of arms graphics you may >> view. >> Regards: >>Larry. > > Well, this is a nice site, but I think FREE means browsing only, although > the webpage also refers to FREE blazons from around the world. I wonder > what he means by 'FREE', because you likely know, there are no Generic > Free > blazons. This, on question to them, was verified for me several years ago > by > the Genealogical Office, Dublin. > > They pointed out that Coats are owned only by the person or family for > whom > they were granted. The Genealogical office will create one for anyone, in > accordance with one's design, provided it doesn't clash with another > person's one - but it is very expensive - about $5-6 thousand dollars. For > commercial enterprises it is a tax write- off, but not for us poor plebes, > even if we could afford the cost > > Also very interesting in that site was this foot note excerpt about the > book > of O'Hart's > Genealogies : > > "..."Irish Pedigrees or the Origin and Stem of the Irish Nation", by John > O'Hart is one of the best known Irish genealogical publications in the > world. The first edition appeared in 1876, but was followed by several > subsequent editions that added greatly to the overall size of the work. > The > most quoted edition was published in New York in 1923, twenty years after > the author's death. It is worth mentioning here that the original work did > not include and heraldic (coat of arms) information and that this was > added > to posthumous publications by unscrupulous publishers, presumably to > increase sales. In general, O'Hart is a dubious source, at best, for such > information (see quote below from Edward MacLysaght in regard to this > topic). > > John O'Hart was born in Crossmolina, Co. Mayo, in 1824. He received an > excellent education with the intention of joining the priesthood. However, > he instead spent two years in the constabulary (the police), after which > he > was employed by the Commissioners of National Education in Ireland from > 1845, the first year of the Famine. He became an Associate in Arts at the > Queen's University, and thereafter he was an active member of several > scholarly societies. He was an avid genealogist and took a keen interest > in > Irish history, despite never receiving formal training as an historian. > Politically he was an Irish nationalist, and in religious matters, a > committed Catholic. Both of these factors permeated his work. He died in > 1902 in Clontarf, Co. Dublin, at the age of 78. > > O'Hart used many sources to compile the information that appears in his > major work. His principal sources were Gaelic genealogies, like those of > O'Clery, MacFirbis and O'Farrell. Along with the Gaelic annals, especially > the Annals of the Four Masters, O'Hart was able to 'reconstruct' the > medieval and ancient pedigrees that appear here. He also used later > sources, > like the works of Burke, Collins, Harris, Lodge and Ware to extend these > lineages into the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries. But arguably the > most > important information contained in these genealogies came where O'Hart > gathered the details directly from the families concerned, often from > private papers or family tradition. These sections concern the later > period, > particularly post 1800, and are good for many specific localities like > western Co. Clare. > > There are two types of genealogies in O'Hart; the genealogies of the > Gaelic > families and the genealogies of Anglo-Norman and other later settlers. > O'Hart made one important distinction in his treatment of these. Irish > mythology records that every family was descended from a certain Milesius > of > Spain who in about 1700 BC led his followers to invade and conquer > Ireland. > The Christian monks who wrote these genealogies down in the 9th century, > 2,500 years after Milesius, also added their own beliefs. So they recorded > that Milesius was the 36th in descent from Adam! O'Hart, being both an > ardent believer in the Gaelic myths and Christianity, followed their > example. In his Gaelic genealogies a number representing the generation of > descent from Adam precedes every generation. By contrast the Anglo-Normans > and later invaders made no such claims, so O'Hart's genealogies of these > families do not include these numbers. O'Hart showed, probably > incorrectly, > that every Gaelic family was descended from four of Milesius's family. > These > were his three sons, Heber, Ir and Heremon, and his uncle Ithe. These four > were considered the 'stem' lines of the genealogies that followed. > While he undertook a great deal of research, using the majority of > available > published sources, many Gaelic scholars have superseded his work over the > last 100 years. He was not familiar with the abundant unpublished Gaelic > manuscript sources available. These have shown that many of his > genealogies > are incorrect for the years prior to 1600 AD. Furthermore, O'Hart was not > a > professional historian or genealogist, and had little training in using > the > esoteric sources he consulted. As a consequence he misunderstood a great > deal about Gaelic society and culture, a world which had largely > disappeared > from Ireland long before he put pen to paper. He was also credulous in > using > the sources he did consult, believing that the myths were fact. > > Despite these limitations, careful use of his work can be very productive. > His genealogies for the years after 1600 have great value, and are often > unavailable elsewhere. He was also able to consult many sources which have > since been destroyed or lost. In the words of Edward MacLysaght, Ireland's > most famous authority on the history of surnames, he 'made use of it > almost > daily'. > > In relation to O'Hart and other similar publications, MacLysaght, also > warns: > > "The subject of Irish families is one in which much interest is evinced, > but > the popular books usually consulted and regarded as authoritative, > particularly in America, are in fact unreliable. The inaccurate and > misleading information thus imparted with cumulative effect is, however, > much more deplorable in the armorial [coats of arms] sphere than in the > genealogical. It is an indisputable fact that the publication presenting > colour plates of Irish arms which is probably most widely consulted is no > less than seventy per cent inaccurate, not only in mere detail, but often > in > points of primary importance and of an elementary kind. Apart from their > many grotesque heraldic blunders the compilers of this work seem to have > had > a sort of rule of thumb; if they could not find arms for one Irish sept > they > looked for the name of another somewhat resembling it in sound: thus, for > example, they coolly assigned the arms of Boylan to Boland. This > frequently > resulted in the arms of some purely English family being inserted in their > book of "Irish Arms" the Saxon Huggins being equated with O'Higgins, and > so > on. When this arbitrary method failed them they fell back on the arms of > some great Irish sept. To quote one instance of this: Gleeson, Noonan and > McFadden are all given the arms of O'Brien, though none of these septs had > any connexion whatever with the O'Briens or with each other. Consequently > many Americans of Irish descent are in good faith using erroneous and > often > English arms derived from the spurious source in question. > > A certain cachet has been given to this because, in the more recent > editions > of O'Hart's Irish Pedigrees, these same coloured plates have been inserted > as if they were an integral part of O'Hart's book. The serious genealogist > uses O'Hart with caution, if at all, for he is a far from reliable > authority > except for the quite modern period. John O'Hart, however, undoubtedly did > a > vast amount of research, no matter how he used the information he > acquired: > I know that some of these errors of ascription can actually be traced to > him, but it is surely an injustice to him that his well-known name should > be > used as a cover for the propagation of false and often ludicrous heraldic > statements." > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > IRL-CLARE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >