I changed the subject for those not interested. I have some friends doing a little digging with a few clues that I have. Who knows what will turn up. I have all my family buried together at Holy Cross cemetery in San Francisco. There are 19 buried together but I can only confirm 10 as mine. The other nine are O'Briens also but were transferred from another cemetery in 1929. Staff at Holy Cross state that 'no one can be buried with another unless they are related by blood or marriage'. The only clues left are following: 1. William O'Brien married Catherine O'Brien (nee O'Brien), date and place unknown. 2. Both were Catholic. Both native of Co Limerick 3. If they followed naming conventions their children in order are:(b. & d. SF) Catherine (1855-1923) John Francis (1856-1937) (John had two children buried here also) William Michael (1858-1925) Norah (1861-1874)(twin) James (1861-1878)(twin) Mary Ellen (1865-1918) Of the others buried with them: 4. Catherine O'Brien (1804-1889)(b. Ireland) 5. Margaret Holliday (nee O'Brien)(dau of 4)(1834-1887)(b. London) 6. William O'Brien (son of 4) (1846-1884)(b. London) 7. Laura Holliday (dau of 5)(b. 1880-SF, d. 1946-SF) 8. Johanna O'Brien (1845-1873)(native of Ireland) 9. Thomas O'Brien (1832-1887) (native of Ardagh, Co Limerick)******* 10. Priscilla O'Brien (wife of Thomas)(1829-1894)(native of Ireland) 11. Margaret M O'Brien (1866-1896)(b. ?) 12. Matilda O'Brien (1897-1897) (2 months)(dau of John and Mary)(possible 2nd wife of John Francis. He was divorced from his 1st wife (Matilda) in 1888). Because of the dates of death on most of these, there are no records available in San Francisco prior to 1906, the great earthquake. All information I have came from census logs and obituaries. Of the six Catholic churches in San Francisco prior to 1906, three were destroyed in the earthquake. I have already researched the remaining three churches and have found no information pertaining to any of the above. I have a list of their residences from 1856-1925 from the City Directories. The only clues I have are that my William and Catherine O'Brien both came from Co Limerick and were Catholic. After reading the History of the O'Briens by Ivar O'Brien and History of O'Briens by Hon Donough O'Brien, I found that the O'Brien lineage had 16 recorded marriages with cousins. With that thought in mind, it is possible that William and Catherine were cousins too. Three of the four death certificates after 1906 stated mother's maiden name as 'O'Brien'. If anyone has an ancestor who married a cousin or you are looking for that elusive brother or sister of an ancestor from the early 1800s, let me know if you connect. Mike O'Brien Grandson of John Francis, the only one in the family to marry. mike@obrienclan.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "padraigogealagain" <padraigogealagain@rogers.com> To: <irl-clare@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, September 11, 2006 6:04 PM Subject: Re: [IRL-CLARE] The Arms of Irish Septs- An Explanation (Part 1) >> The only way to know is to trace the lineage back. So far I am back to >> Co >> Limerick (1824). No town or parish nor parents names. > > Well, Mike, that is a 'BRICK WALL' I hope you can demolish it. I, > fortunately, have documentation to direct Galligan ancestors of > Cahercorney, > Co.Limerick - but then my ancestors, thankfully, were not of the > 'Diaspora". > In fact I was born there. I think I'll declare myself the 'The' of the > sub-sept of Co. Limerick :-) ! Ha, ha! > > Well said, Mike, about particularly O'Hart, but a lot of mis-informed > knowledge - or wishful thinking - is (and not can be) very conflicting; > it > tends to 'muddy the waters" > The stuff you gave Alanna on pre-16/17th centuries of the O'Hart > genealogies has long being declared by learned and well educated > genealogists, in the Irish expression as 'Rawmeash' ( pure rubbish) "! > > Why even Mac Lysaght said >