Padraig, I tried to discuss this off list but you refused. Sorry this info is not necessarily genealogy research related, but inquiring minds might want to know. When a person claims to be Chief of Name, the Chief Heralds Office verified that the person in question was a male bloodline descendent. The Genealogical Office and the Chief Heralds Office are two distinct functions. They support each other but recognition comes from the Chief Heralds Office. The Genealogical Office only does the research to verify the claim to the Chief Heralds Office. If the persons claim is verified to the satisfaction of the Chief Heralds Office, then the designation 'THE' is blessed for use by the individual. You should be asking your questions to the Chief Heralds Office and not the Genealogical Office. The following comment comes directly from the Chief Heralds Office website(http://www.nli.ie/fr_offi.htm): A Chief of the Name was a person recognized by the Chief Herald as the most senior known male descendant of the last inaugurated or de facto chief of that name in power in Gaelic Ireland at or before the end of the sixteenth century. In regards to genealogical research their website states: No, the Office of the Chief Herald does not undertake genealogical research or searches in the records of the office, on behalf of members of the public. There is a Genealogical Advisory Service available free of charge to personal callers to the Library, who wish to research their family tree in Ireland. Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "padraigogealagain" <padraigogealagain@rogers.com> To: <irl-clare@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 11:44 AM Subject: Re: [IRL-CLARE] : The Arms of Irish Septs- An Explanation (Part 1) > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike O'Brien" <mike@obrienclan.com> > To: <irl-clare@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 1:06 PM > Subject: Re: [IRL-CLARE] : The Arms of Irish Septs- An Explanation (Part 1) > >> Snip, Snip, Snip> > >>Snip .... They did perform genealogical research to verify Chiefs that >> were male bloodline descendents from their last de facto Chief and >> therefore >> authorized to use the position designation 'THE' before their surname. > > Who authorised them? The Genealogical Office or ...? > > Mike - I keep getting more or less the same info. now for the past week, as > well as every other members have. It's obvious to me from the responses > that there is certain informed dis-agreement with your views on the subject > in general. > > As well as the fact, that the letter of reply which I received from the > Genealogical Office of 12 February 1997 states, in part: > > "... There is in fact NO [emphasis added] authority for the use of "The" in > Irish genealogy or Heraldry. The leaders of the Clans [read Septs] were know > by their surname, eg O'Neill, O'Donnell and MacCarthy, etc " > > You seem to be disputing that contradicting that reply. > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRL-CLARE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >

From: "Mike O'Brien" <mike@obrienclan.com> To: <irl-clare@rootsweb.com> >Big, Big , SNIP>> >The following comment comes directly from the Chief Heralds Office >website?(http://www.nli.ie/fr_offi.htm): >A Chief of the Name was a person recognized by the Chief Herald as the most >senior known male >descendant of the last inaugurated or de facto chief of >that name in power in Gaelic Ireland at or before >the end of the sixteenth >century. Yes, I have been there and done that. BUT you did not explain from a previous post just who AUTHORISED the use of "The". Yes, your right, I did not, nor do I wish to discuss List matters off-List, regardless of the writer or the subject I am not at all interested, with all due respects, in the so-called modern day commercial Clan system, backed by the Irish Tourist Board. The O'Brien site is, I understand a Limited liability company, just the same as the rest of the so-called Clans (which is misnomer, as the ancient Irish never had tribal Clans). It is just commercial 'SPAM' to me, disguised as genealogy. A commercial site devoted to those who wish buying into false pride - O.K., that's their decision. I noticed your collective website is showing a blazon named the 'Royal O'Briens' - did the Office of authentic Chief Herald grant it? The blazon was never before known as 'The Royal O'Briens'.

----- Original Message ----- From: "padraigogealagain" <padraigogealagain@rogers.com> To: <irl-clare@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 3:16 PM Subject: Re: [IRL-CLARE] : The Arms of Irish Septs- An Explanation (Part 1) >>SNIP, SNIP to you. > I am not at all interested, with all due respects, in the so-called modern > day commercial Clan system, backed by the Irish Tourist Board. The O'Brien > site is, I understand a Limited liability company, just the same as the > rest > of the so-called Clans (which is misnomer, as the ancient Irish never had > tribal Clans). It is just commercial 'SPAM' to me, disguised as > genealogy. > A commercial site devoted to those who wish buying into false pride - > O.K., that's their decision. I don't know where you get the modern day commercial Clan system, backed by the Irish Tourist Board. If you are referring to The Clans of Ireland, they are a registered charity with the Irish government and they made arrangements to get free advertiseing through Board Failte. There is no commercial clan system that I am aware of. The O'Brien site as an LLC is out of left field. We have three sites and none are LLC. One Clan, one Foundation and one gift shop. As far as Clans go, Clan O'Brien, under the definition of Edward MacLysaght IS an Irish clan. We have 12 families that have different surnames that descend from O'Brien, therefore we are a clan. You are correct in that the Irish never had a Clan system like the Scottish. They claim all living in their area as belonging to their clan, blood or not. The Irish only claim blood. I don't know where you get the rest of it. As far as the 'Royal O'Briens' go, that's who we are. Descendents of Brian Boru. Kings throughout history. I think we should let this go for now. The others may have more important things to talk about on this list. Mike > From: "Mike O'Brien" <mike@obrienclan.com> > To: <irl-clare@rootsweb.com> > >>Big, Big , SNIP>> > >>The following comment comes directly from the Chief Heralds Office >>website?(http://www.nli.ie/fr_offi.htm): >>A Chief of the Name was a person recognized by the Chief Herald as the >>most >>senior known male >descendant of the last inaugurated or de facto chief of >>that name in power in Gaelic Ireland at or before >the end of the >>sixteenth >>century. > > Yes, I have been there and done that. BUT you did not explain from a > previous post just who AUTHORISED the use of "The". Yes, your right, I > did > not, nor do I wish to discuss List matters off-List, regardless of the > writer or the subject > > I am not at all interested, with all due respects, in the so-called modern > day commercial Clan system, backed by the Irish Tourist Board. The O'Brien > site is, I understand a Limited liability company, just the same as the > rest > of the so-called Clans (which is misnomer, as the ancient Irish never had > tribal Clans). It is just commercial 'SPAM' to me, disguised as > genealogy. > A commercial site devoted to those who wish buying into false pride - > O.K., that's their decision. > > I noticed your collective website is showing a blazon named the 'Royal > O'Briens' - did the Office of authentic Chief Herald grant it? The blazon > was never before known as 'The Royal O'Briens'. > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > IRL-CLARE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >