---- Original Message ----- From: "Margaret Garthwaite" <megarthwaite@tiscali.co.uk> To: <IRL-CLARE@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 11:16 AM Subject: [IRL-CLARE] NESTOR my brick walls > I'm posting my problem again because I would like to ask for advice from > the list. > > Just to set the scene; John NESTOR and Bridget WALSH had five children, > Catherine b. 1832, Thomas b 1842 and Mary Ann b 1848, plus two daughters, > names unkown. Family lore has it that they came from Ennis. Certainly > Catherine and Mary Ann left from Ennis when they emigrated to Australia. How do you know for certain that Catherine and Mary Ann left from Ennis for Australia ? What year did they leave? Was it just Catherine and Mary who emmigrated, and do you know why - was there a cousin already there, or was it an assisted immigration scheme of some kind? What documentation, if any, do you have for the birth years ? And look at the disparity between the birth years you have. Putting aside the two unknown daughters - there is 10 years btween Catherine and Thomas! and a further 6 years between Thomas and Mary Ann! - not your typical Catholic family, as trends went. > > I paid for some research, but no matching family showed up. Research, as you know, is only as good as the information given to the researcher - if the info. is wrong, well - one gets negative results - who did the research? If it was undertaken by a Co. Clare heritage centre, then they would not likely have access to the records for Askeaton, Co. Limerick. If they were searching the R.C. church records of Ennis, for example, then records didn't begin until 1841, and even then many pages of old registers are either missing entirely, or soiled, torn, tattered or faded beyond legibility. > > The Griffiths valuations for Ennis have an assortment of the 'correct' > names, and none that don't fit. > Forget Griffiths, as its only value is in seeing that the surname was evident in a given place, and even if first names matched, one can not be absolutely sure of a match. Besides many people never made it onto Griffiths - there was a minimum valuation placed on a house for it to be considered for valuation; and for the many who were just lodgers they could not be included. > But; > > the only solid info I have is that Mary Ann was christened in Askeaton. Let's deal with the Askeaton aspect - This is a small point, but the word 'Christened' is generally used in the Protestant faith; whereas 'Baptised' is consistently used in Catholic records - is this a clue, perhaps, to their religious denomination? Very important, indeed, as to which church records to check. Anyway, please elaborate on the 'solid info.,' that you have. > > Also it seems that Bridget NESTOR appears several times as godmother to > Askeaton baptisms under both her maiden name, WALSH, and her married name. > (So my fellow-researcher tells me.) Aside from the question of how your researcher can assume it is the Bridget in question, the above line, in regards to Bridget's marriage surname, is contrary to traditional R.C policy. But, again, Askeaton, Co. Limerick appears - suggesting that the family was from Co. Limerick and moved later to Co. Clare. > > There is a John NESTOR at Shanbally, with a Lawrence and a Michael, but > the names Lawrence and Michael >don't appear among the descendants of the > family at all, which suggests to me that this is not 'my' John NESTOR. Again, this appears to be a Griffiths record, and of no real value. But I would not discount those first names that don't appear later in the family. In my family tree in Feb 8, 1818, there was a Laurence, a name that appeared again on Sep. 2, 1832 within the same family unit, as if the first born one had died, but the name was somehow important enough in the family to be used again for another. But since then, the name has never, ever, been used.- it was just a two-time occurrence. > My question is; Is there anything else I can do, any more avenues to > explore, or should I just resign myself to the idea that I am never going > to know any more than this? I would be really grateful for comments, and > suggestions. > Have you checked the LDS films of civil death registrations for both parents? Such records don't provide much information other than the year of the event; the cause; the place, and the informants names. But the place name might prove to be a good clue. That's to assume, of course, that the parents had died in Ireland. Likewise with the brother Thomas, have you checked civil registrations, again at the LDS, from 1845 (Protestant) or 1864 (Catholic) for his possible marriage? These are the only thoughts I have, Margaret. It's a shame considering the info. that you have that you can't presently expand on it. Hopefully, you will in the forseeable future. Concetrate your efforts on Askeaton! > Margaret ***** Reply to the LIST ONLY - Please ***** ***** Thanks for your consideration ***** Pádraig Mór, An Sean Gabhar

Thank you Padraig for your very full and generous response to my query. The research was done in Clare and I had very little to give the researcher, only the names of John and the three children, not even Bridget. I got that from the Australian shipping lists. Info on the girls came from Australian records, both assisted, don't know if they went to anyone. Catherine arrived in Sydney on Sept 6 1853, on the "Talavera" from Ennis, Co Clare. Mary Ann arrived in Sydney on April 30 1864, aged 15, on the "Queen of the East" from Ennis, Co Clare. Thomas went to England and the two unknown girls went to America and were never heard of again after the San Francisco earthquake (Oral history) No clues to births except for Mary Ann, baptised at Askeaton in 1848, and that came from the IGI. Only reckoned from other records, but probably fairly close for the others. I know what you mean about the spread of ages, but what were the likely survival rates for babies from poor families? Of Thomas's thirteen, only six survived infancy, and of those, only five made adulthood. Mary Ann died in 1919 and Catherine in 1918. The death records for Mary Ann and Catherine come from the NSW BDM s. I have a lot of documentation for their descendants. I have all of Thomas's stuff, marriage, censuses, children's births, his death, but there is no extra info there. Except that in Jan 1664 when Thomas married, his father John, a labourer, is dead. I tend to interchange the terms christened and baptised very loosely - got told off by the priest for that very thing at the last family baptism. They were a RC family, still are; well, some of us! Not sure where my cousin got the godmother info from, I must check with her. Bridget NESTOR must have died in Ireland, so it is worth looking for her death, that's something I hadn't thought of. Thank you again. Regards Margaret ----- Original Message ----- From: "Pádraig Mór Ó Gealagain" <padraigogealagain@rogers.com> To: <irl-clare@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 6:25 PM Subject: Re: [IRL-CLARE] NESTOR my brick walls ---- Original Message ----- From: "Margaret Garthwaite" <megarthwaite@tiscali.co.uk> To: <IRL-CLARE@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2006 11:16 AM Subject: [IRL-CLARE] NESTOR my brick walls > I'm posting my problem again because I would like to ask for advice from > the list. > > Just to set the scene; John NESTOR and Bridget WALSH had five children, > Catherine b. 1832, Thomas b 1842 and Mary Ann b 1848, plus two daughters, > names unkown. Family lore has it that they came from Ennis. Certainly > Catherine and Mary Ann left from Ennis when they emigrated to Australia. What documentation, if any, do you have for the birth years ? And look at the disparity between the birth years you have. Putting aside the two unknown daughters - there is 10 years btween Catherine and Thomas! and a further 6 years between Thomas and Mary Ann! - not your typical Catholic family, as trends went. > > I paid for some research, but no matching family showed up. Research, as you know, is only as good as the information given to the researcher - if the info. is wrong, well - one gets negative results - who did the research? If it was undertaken by a Co. Clare heritage centre, then they would not likely have access to the records for Askeaton, Co. Limerick. If they were searching the R.C. church records of Ennis, for example, then records didn't begin until 1841, and even then many pages of old registers are either missing entirely, or soiled, torn, tattered or faded beyond legibility. > > The Griffiths valuations for Ennis have an assortment of the 'correct' > names, and none that don't fit. > Forget Griffiths, as its only value is in seeing that the surname was evident in a given place, and even if first names matched, one can not be absolutely sure of a match. Besides many people never made it onto Griffiths - there was a minimum valuation placed on a house for it to be considered for valuation; and for the many who were just lodgers they could not be included. > But; > > the only solid info I have is that Mary Ann was christened in Askeaton. Let's deal with the Askeaton aspect - This is a small point, but the word 'Christened' is generally used in the Protestant faith; whereas 'Baptised' is consistently used in Catholic records - is this a clue, perhaps, to their religious denomination? Very important, indeed, as to which church records to check. Anyway, please elaborate on the 'solid info.,' that you have. > > Also it seems that Bridget NESTOR appears several times as godmother to > Askeaton baptisms under both her maiden name, WALSH, and her married name. > (So my fellow-researcher tells me.) Aside from the question of how your researcher can assume it is the Bridget in question, the above line, in regards to Bridget's marriage surname, is contrary to traditional R.C policy. But, again, Askeaton, Co. Limerick appears - suggesting that the family was from Co. Limerick and moved later to Co. Clare. > > There is a John NESTOR at Shanbally, with a Lawrence and a Michael, but > the names Lawrence and Michael >don't appear among the descendants of the > family at all, which suggests to me that this is not 'my' John NESTOR. Again, this appears to be a Griffiths record, and of no real value. But I would not discount those first names that don't appear later in the family. In my family tree in Feb 8, 1818, there was a Laurence, a name that appeared again on Sep. 2, 1832 within the same family unit, as if the first born one had died, but the name was somehow important enough in the family to be used again for another. But since then, the name has never, ever, been used.- it was just a two-time occurrence. > My question is; Is there anything else I can do, any more avenues to > explore, or should I just resign myself to the idea that I am never going > to know any more than this? I would be really grateful for comments, and > suggestions. > Have you checked the LDS films of civil death registrations for both parents? Such records don't provide much information other than the year of the event; the cause; the place, and the informants names. But the place name might prove to be a good clue. That's to assume, of course, that the parents had died in Ireland. Likewise with the brother Thomas, have you checked civil registrations, again at the LDS, from 1845 (Protestant) or 1864 (Catholic) for his possible marriage? These are the only thoughts I have, Margaret. It's a shame considering the info. that you have that you can't presently expand on it. Hopefully, you will in the forseeable future. Concetrate your efforts on Askeaton! > Margaret ***** Reply to the LIST ONLY - Please ***** ***** Thanks for your consideration ***** Pádraig Mór, An Sean Gabhar ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRL-CLARE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message