From: "Margaret Garthwaite" < megarthwaite@tiscali.co.uk> Subject: Re: [IRL-CLARE] NESTOR my brick walls Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 19:42:32 +0100 > Thank you Padraig for your very full and generous response to my query. "> The research was done in Clare and I had very little to give the researcher, only the names of John and the three children, not even Bridget. I got that from the Australian shipping lists.>" "> Info on the girls came from Australian records, both assisted, don't know if they went to anyone. Catherine arrived in Sydney on Sept 6 1853, on the "Talavera" from Ennis, Co Clare. Mary Ann arrived in Sydney on April 30 1864, aged 15, on the "Queen of the East" from Ennis, Co Clare.>" Well, of course, we know they had to get to England to board those ships - But I have a couple of concerns here: "The ship 'Talavera' 1882 June 16 (www.bruzelius.info/Nautica/Ships/Fourmast_Ships/Talavera(1882).html) According to an engine search, this ship was launched on June 16, 1882 "{at} the shipyard of Birrell, Stenhouse & Co., Dunbarton, as Yard No. 35 for John Hardie, Glasgow. Assigned the official British Reg. No. 86668. " The Barque did service from Glasgow and London to Melbourne and Sydney, as well as other eastern ports until 1896 May 1, when it was stranded on Santa Maria Island on a voyage from Valparaiso to Conception Bay in ballast. A search for the "Queen of the East" showed an arrival in Australia in March 1864. (http://www.blaxland.com/ozships/) There is nothing in that Website on the Talavera. If you have actual transcriptions from the ships lists passengers on those two ships, I would not object to getting them from you directly to my mailbox as an attachment. I would like to see them, with the appropriate record documentation. "> Thomas went to England and the two unknown girls went to America and were never heard of again after the San Francisco earthquake (Oral history)>" About these two unknowns - where did you get that info. from? ">No clues to births except for Mary Ann, baptised at Askeaton in 1848, and that came from the IGI. >" "> ... Only reckoned from other records, but probably fairly close for the others.>" What do you mean by 'other' records? " >... I know what you mean about the spread of ages, > but what were the likely survival rates for babies from poor families? Of > Thomas's thirteen, only six survived infancy, and of those, only five made > adulthood.>" My problem with the IGI record of Mary - and I agree that it seems to be a transcript from an R. C. parish record; the LDS reference indicates that - But it is unusual for a transcriber to anglicise the name from its Latinised original, and that also applies to the first names of the parents. Besides that, she is not transcribed as Mary Ann(e). Well, I can't elaborate in any way about infant mortality during that time, but if there were other children who survived birth, but died shortly afterwards, then there would be a record, provided they were baptised in the accepted manner at a church within a few days of birth, as was the custom. " >Mary Ann died in 1919 and Catherine in 1918. The death records for Mary Ann and Catherine come from the NSW BDM s. I have a lot of documentation for their descendants.>" " > I have all of Thomas's stuff, marriage, censuses, children's births, his death, but there is no extra info there. Except that in Jan 1664 when Thomas married, his father John, a labourer, is dead.?" O.K., where did he get married? " > I tend to interchange the terms christened and baptised very loosely - got told off by the priest for that very thing at the last family baptism. They were a RC family, still are; well, some of us! Not sure where my cousin got the godmother info from, I must check with her. >" That's O.K., so does the LDS, but they cover both bases. Bridget NESTOR must have died in Ireland, so it is worth looking for her death, that's something I hadn't thought of. Yes, we are searching for a place name. Thank you again. Regards Margaret ***** Reply to the LIST ONLY - Please ***** ***** Thanks for your consideration ***** Pádraig Mór, An Sean Gabhar

----- Original Message ----- From: "Pádraig Mór Ó Gealagain" <padraigogealagain@rogers.com> To: <irl-clare@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, October 12, 2006 12:17 AM Subject: [IRL-CLARE] NESTOR my brick walls From: "Margaret Garthwaite" < megarthwaite@tiscali.co.uk> Subject: Re: [IRL-CLARE] NESTOR my brick walls Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 19:42:32 +0100 > I repeat, thank you Padraig for your very full and generous response. "Well, of course, we know they had to get to England to board those ships" Does that mean that the ships didn't sail directly from Ennis? I got this from a web-site, but I didn't note the address. Talavera built 1853. Barque. 1882 purchased from J. F. Gibb, London, 1890 scrapped. 384 tons "If you have actual transcriptions from the ships lists passengers on those two ships" NSW Archives for assisted passengers NESTOR Mary Ann 15 Queen of the East 1864 (reel numbers 2139, 2482) NESTOR Catherine 21 Talavera 1853 (reel numbers 2137, 2465) My cousin in Australia checked the reels, which is where the actual dates came from, but I don't have transcripts. "> Thomas went to England and the two unknown girls went to America and were never heard of again after the San Francisco earthquake (Oral history)>" My father told me, and my eldest surviving relative agrees with him. Apparently they used to correspond, then letters stopped after the earthquake. It is my ultimate fantasy to track them, but without names or dates, the chances are a bit remote! "What do you mean by 'other' records?" For Thomas, I have his marriage and death certificates, plus census entries. For Catherine and Mary Ann, I have oral evidence, as above, that letters stopped after WW1, also information from on-line records, and checks carried out by the Australian branch. "My problem with the IGI record of Mary ... it is unusual for a transcriber to anglicise the name from its Latinised original, and that also applies to the first names of the parents." Being a newbie, I hadn't registered that, but of course that's how they are shown in other baptismal records I have. "Besides that, she is not transcribed as Mary Ann(e)." I was convinced that she was, I don't know why. She is shown as Mary Ann on her marriage registration - NSW archives again. Also on most of the birth registration of her numerous children. And on her death, with parents John and Bridget, matching the name and address my senior relative had for her. I suppose we just assumed that the IGI represented "our" Mary Ann, becuse of the matching age and parents. I will get that re-checked. "O.K., where did he get married?" St Bede's Chapel, (now St Bede's Church) Appleton, Widnes Lancashire. Know it well, went to Mass there for years, parents married there, self baptised there. Not christened!. "Yes, we are searching for a place name." Padraig, you have obliged me to re-check all my data, and that can only be a good thing. I am so grateful for your help and advice. I need to re-check our info on Mary Ann, I will talk to the cousin, she may have details from other films she has scanned. Thank you again. Regards Margaret

Ennis, except for the river Fergus, is landlocked. I checked the NSW Archives site - they have a peculiar way of indexing names. A search for a Mary Ann revealed zilch. A further search for Mary brought up Mary Ann - go figure! and I found Catherine's record, too. I assume, therefor, that the information about place of origin, Ennis, came from the NSW shipping records. Well, whoever owns the website wherein I got the info., for the 'Talavera' didn't mention at all, that the ship in built in Scotland later in the century, was to replace an original vessel. Yes, it is always prudent to re-check the evidence, one never knows what might additionally come up. Well, Margaret, there is no more that I can think of in the way of help . In summary, Askeaton certainly looks good, although I can't explain a birth transcription from an R.C. baptismal record of first names being in English., and that only a Mary was baptised to parents with the right names in Askeaton, no record of Catherine or Thomas, nor the two females who went to San Francisco. Ennis confuses me, too. ***** Reply to the LIST ONLY - Please ***** ***** Thanks for your consideration ***** Pádraig Mór, An Sean Gabhar From: "Margaret Garthwaite" < megarthwaite@tiscali.co.uk> Subject: Re: [IRL-CLARE] NESTOR my brick walls Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 19:42:32 +0100 > I repeat, thank you Padraig for your very full and generous response. "Well, of course, we know they had to get to England to board those ships" Does that mean that the ships didn't sail directly from Ennis? I got this from a web-site, but I didn't note the address. Talavera built 1853. Barque. 1882 purchased from J. F. Gibb, London, 1890 scrapped. 384 tons "If you have actual transcriptions from the ships lists passengers on those two ships" NSW Archives for assisted passengers NESTOR Mary Ann 15 Queen of the East 1864 (reel numbers 2139, 2482) NESTOR Catherine 21 Talavera 1853 (reel numbers 2137, 2465) My cousin in Australia checked the reels, which is where the actual dates came from, but I don't have transcripts. "> Thomas went to England and the two unknown girls went to America and were never heard of again after the San Francisco earthquake (Oral history)>" My father told me, and my eldest surviving relative agrees with him. Apparently they used to correspond, then letters stopped after the earthquake. It is my ultimate fantasy to track them, but without names or dates, the chances are a bit remote! "What do you mean by 'other' records?" For Thomas, I have his marriage and death certificates, plus census entries. For Catherine and Mary Ann, I have oral evidence, as above, that letters stopped after WW1, also information from on-line records, and checks carried out by the Australian branch. "My problem with the IGI record of Mary ... it is unusual for a transcriber to anglicise the name from its Latinised original, and that also applies to the first names of the parents." Being a newbie, I hadn't registered that, but of course that's how they are shown in other baptismal records I have. "Besides that, she is not transcribed as Mary Ann(e)." I was convinced that she was, I don't know why. She is shown as Mary Ann on her marriage registration - NSW archives again. Also on most of the birth registration of her numerous children. And on her death, with parents John and Bridget, matching the name and address my senior relative had for her. I suppose we just assumed that the IGI represented "our" Mary Ann, becuse of the matching age and parents. I will get that re-checked. "O.K., where did he get married?" St Bede's Chapel, (now St Bede's Church) Appleton, Widnes Lancashire. Know it well, went to Mass there for years, parents married there, self baptised there. Not christened!. "Yes, we are searching for a place name." Padraig, you have obliged me to re-check all my data, and that can only be a good thing. I am so grateful for your help and advice. I need to re-check our info on Mary Ann, I will talk to the cousin, she may have details from other films she has scanned. Thank you again. Regards Margaret

G'day Noticed the references to shipping related websites in Padraig's informative response. I am interested because I am trying to chase down information on the Grand Trianon which, I believe, carried my gr gr grandfather Patrick Sheahan to Melbourne in 1857. A terrific site with lots of online information on shipping arrivals, assisted and unassisted passengers etc. is the Victorian Public Records Office www.prov.vic.gov.au The passenger list has him as Patrick Sheehan and Pat Shehan in different journal entries. I believe that other Australian states also have similar comprehensive web sites. Well worth a look if you are hunting down ancestors who may have headed "down under" Regards Kevin Sheahan -----Original Message----- From: irl-clare-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:irl-clare-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Pádraig Mór Ó Gealagain Sent: Thursday, 12 October 2006 9:18 AM To: irl-clare@rootsweb.com Subject: [IRL-CLARE] NESTOR my brick walls From: "Margaret Garthwaite" < megarthwaite@tiscali.co.uk> Subject: Re: [IRL-CLARE] NESTOR my brick walls Date: Tue, 10 Oct 2006 19:42:32 +0100 > Thank you Padraig for your very full and generous response to my query. "> The research was done in Clare and I had very little to give the researcher, only the names of John and the three children, not even Bridget. I got that from the Australian shipping lists.>" "> Info on the girls came from Australian records, both assisted, don't know if they went to anyone. Catherine arrived in Sydney on Sept 6 1853, on the "Talavera" from Ennis, Co Clare. Mary Ann arrived in Sydney on April 30 1864, aged 15, on the "Queen of the East" from Ennis, Co Clare.>" Well, of course, we know they had to get to England to board those ships - But I have a couple of concerns here: "The ship 'Talavera' 1882 June 16 (www.bruzelius.info/Nautica/Ships/Fourmast_Ships/Talavera(1882).html) According to an engine search, this ship was launched on June 16, 1882 "{at} the shipyard of Birrell, Stenhouse & Co., Dunbarton, as Yard No. 35 for John Hardie, Glasgow. Assigned the official British Reg. No. 86668. " The Barque did service from Glasgow and London to Melbourne and Sydney, as well as other eastern ports until 1896 May 1, when it was stranded on Santa Maria Island on a voyage from Valparaiso to Conception Bay in ballast. A search for the "Queen of the East" showed an arrival in Australia in March 1864. (http://www.blaxland.com/ozships/) There is nothing in that Website on the Talavera. If you have actual transcriptions from the ships lists passengers on those two ships, I would not object to getting them from you directly to my mailbox as an attachment. I would like to see them, with the appropriate record documentation. "> Thomas went to England and the two unknown girls went to America and were never heard of again after the San Francisco earthquake (Oral history)>" About these two unknowns - where did you get that info. from? ">No clues to births except for Mary Ann, baptised at Askeaton in 1848, and that came from the IGI. >" "> ... Only reckoned from other records, but probably fairly close for the others.>" What do you mean by 'other' records? " >... I know what you mean about the spread of ages, > but what were the likely survival rates for babies from poor families? Of > Thomas's thirteen, only six survived infancy, and of those, only five made > adulthood.>" My problem with the IGI record of Mary - and I agree that it seems to be a transcript from an R. C. parish record; the LDS reference indicates that - But it is unusual for a transcriber to anglicise the name from its Latinised original, and that also applies to the first names of the parents. Besides that, she is not transcribed as Mary Ann(e). Well, I can't elaborate in any way about infant mortality during that time, but if there were other children who survived birth, but died shortly afterwards, then there would be a record, provided they were baptised in the accepted manner at a church within a few days of birth, as was the custom. " >Mary Ann died in 1919 and Catherine in 1918. The death records for Mary Ann and Catherine come from the NSW BDM s. I have a lot of documentation for their descendants.>" " > I have all of Thomas's stuff, marriage, censuses, children's births, his death, but there is no extra info there. Except that in Jan 1664 when Thomas married, his father John, a labourer, is dead.?" O.K., where did he get married? " > I tend to interchange the terms christened and baptised very loosely - got told off by the priest for that very thing at the last family baptism. They were a RC family, still are; well, some of us! Not sure where my cousin got the godmother info from, I must check with her. >" That's O.K., so does the LDS, but they cover both bases. Bridget NESTOR must have died in Ireland, so it is worth looking for her death, that's something I hadn't thought of. Yes, we are searching for a place name. Thank you again. Regards Margaret ***** Reply to the LIST ONLY - Please ***** ***** Thanks for your consideration ***** Pádraig Mór, An Sean Gabhar ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRL-CLARE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message