Yes, "poignant" is just the right word. It's always a real tragedy when a perfectly functional still is pulled down. Sniff. :-) Patrick Casey <pcasey@compuserve.com> wrote: Jim mentions the story that "......Christopher Columbus was really an Irishman named Lynch". This reminds me of the heroic story of Benny O'Hare, a Clare man who emigrated to Rome in the first century AD and became a famous chariot racer: In 1880 a novelist called Lew Wallace picked up the story - presumably on a journey through Clare - but rewrote it. The hero of his book, who was modelled on Benny O'Hare, became a Jewish prince called Ben Hur. Hollywood then compounded the hijacking of the legend by making a series of films entitled "Ben Hur" based on the book. Benny O'Hare's birthplace, a sod cabin in a field near Kilrush, was marked with a bronze plaque until the beginning of the 19th century when the cabin was pulled down by the Revenue police. They were looking for an illicit still which had been handed down through the family and which was still being operated by Benny's direct descendants.The bronze plaque was lost. A poignant story. Pádraig (the Paddy that was) -----Original Message----- From: irl-clare-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:irl-clare-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of jpmcnamara@sbcglobal.net Sent: 11 September 2006 01:44 To: jeanine; y-irl@yahoogroups.com; MK Douglas; Dr. Jane Lyons; irl-clare@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [IRL-CLARE] Young Irelanders : Re: [Y-IRL] Non Gen...The NineConvicts Hi Jane, Am getting confused here, which lot were hanged? Not the 'nine convicts' the 'young Irelanders' ? Or is it just the lot on your site at the referenced URL? I do have an obscure reference, to which some misinformation may have been my fault, as this reference is just the author's writings based on his research. On the IRL-Clare list, someone said they wished they knew who was responsible for this one bit of mis-information on the Internet... ... and were referring to Richard O'Gorman becoming called a Governor of Newfoundland, and then in the next breath vehemently expressing that Richard O'Gorman has never went to Newfoundland. And I do see what seem to be some of my letters reposted as from another person, and I should emphasize the 'seem to be' part, as if one has the same book, then the reference might very well have been just quoted again. Anyway, this little book I refer to, is an old book published in 1979. It seems I caused some great guffaws when I quoted from this book Judge William Hughes Mulligan's St Patrick's Day tongue-in-cheek speech about how Christopher Columbus was really an Irishman named Lynch. It was the opening to his chapter entitled "The Runaround in Rome" and was a bit of payback to what the author considered his poor treatment at the hands of the Vatican archivists. One way to get even so to speak poorly of Italians, a payback for one repository preventing his access to research materials that would confirm that many priests went to Italy from Ireland after Cromwell's arrival. [also note: someone was so impressed with this letter of mine, that without asking they made it into a website. The website was just a reprint of my letter to Ireland-L@rootsweb.com. This site has finally been taken down.] Anyway, this book also has the story of how the Queen was advised that Sir Charles Duffy who was elected prime minister of the province of Victoria was among the men accused of taking part in an armed uprising, the very group she pardoned. (I am paraphrasing here so hope I am not changing the story.) At this bit of information she allegedly asked to investigate what became of the other eight people. At this point the book does a run down on how successful these people were, at how short sighted the English were to let such great people go. One of the people is the one I am sure I am the one guilty of spreading the mis-information, (if it is untrue), but it is what is in this book, I did not make it up, and that is about Richard O'Gorman. So far I have ducked this issue with my silence. Anyway, here is a rundown from this book of the remaining eight: < 1) Thomas Meagher became governor of Montana, and he was a general during the American Civil War, 2) Terrance McManus became a general in the United States Army. 3) Patrick Donahue became a general in the United States Army. 4) Richard O'Gorman became governor of Newfoundland. [This is the one I have heard the discord about.] 5) Michael Ireland became attorney general of Australia 6) Morris Lyene also became attorney general of Australia 7) Thomas McGee became a member of Parliament in Canada and minister if agriculture 8) John Mitchell became a writer and prominent politician in New York, fathering a son who became mayor of New York. This episode is but a microcosm of the past tragedy of Ireland and the gain of the rest of the world during the oppression of Ireland. And what of the future? ... > So will just say what this reference is, its a fun little book about the author's research into a potential ancestor. The author's mother said they were related to the Galloping Hogan. This book is hardly any kind of primary source, like I said, just a fun read. It is: 'The Quest for the Galloping Hogan, A man of Irish parentage seeks the truth about a legendary ancestor and finds the Irish soul' by Matthew J. Culligan-Hogan, ISBN 0-517-53665-X This book also has the famous Thomas Meagher court-side speech that is often quoted just before the above treatment: < The spokesman, Thomas Meagher, said, "My Lord, this is our first offense, but not our last. If you will be easy with us this once, we promise on our word as gentlemen to do better next time. Sure, we won't be fools enough to get caught." > That's all I have to add to this growing controversy. Jeanine seems to have started it here. (LOL) Best regards, Jim McNamara ----- Original Message ----- From: Dr. Jane Lyons To: jeanine ; y-irl@yahoogroups.com ; MK Douglas Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2006 2:25 PM Subject: Young Irelanders : Re: [Y-IRL] Non Gen...The Nine Convicts Being hanged, drrawn and quartered did happen lots and heads re hung on poles and things This lot were hanged........ I'm sure drawing and quartering was part of the deal http://www.from-ireland.net/censussubs/fer/hangings1641.htm Jane ----- Original Message ----- From: "MK Douglas" To: "jeanine" ; Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2006 6:02 PM Subject: Re: [Y-IRL] Non Gen...The Nine Convicts Check message # 28688 by Dan Donahue--there are some errors here. __._,_.___ Messages in this topic (1) Reply (via web post) | Start a new topic Messages | Files | Photos | Links | Database | Polls | Members | Calendar Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID required) Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest | Switch format to Traditional Visit Your Group | Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use | Unsubscribe . __,_._,___ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRL-CLARE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRL-CLARE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message --------------------------------- Get your email and more, right on the new Yahoo.com

In my previous posting I gave excerpts froman URL about this,oft-times controversial subject regarding copyrighted works. Now I am transcribing the body of a reply that I received 12 February, 1997 from Genealogical Office, Dublin: Dear Padraig O'Gealagain, "Your request for information on the arms appropriate to Galligan and O'Quinn has been referred to me for attention. According to Burke "The General Armory", 1884, no arms are recorderd for either Galligan, Gilligan or McGilligan. I enclose extracts dealing with Quinn and O'Quinn and also accounts from Woulfe, Sloinnte Gaedheal is Gall (Irish names and surnames) and find the Galligan is a distinct name from Gilligan or Quinn and no arms have been found on record as being appropriateto Galligan. It would be possible to apply for a grant of arms to the Chief Herald. There is no authority for the use of "The" in Irish genealogy or Heraldry. The leaders in the Clan [sic] were known by their surname, O'Neill, O'Donnell. and MacCarthy, etc. In answer to your final query no person is entitled officially to bear arms except under the terms of a grant from the former Ulster Office or from the Chief Herald. Yours sincerely Eilish Ellis (Mrs) " **************************************** The reason for my enquiry to the Genealogical office was two-fold: 1). To check tjhe authenticity of a Coat of Arms blazon on a delicate pottery plate which my wife brought back to me as a gift, from an Irish visit, 2). to check the reference in O'Hart's genealogies where Giolagain was shown as number (I forget) in the line of Ir and from whom decended Gillgan, and #3) to check on the validness of certain persons claiming to be Heads of Serfs using the title "The O'Neill" etc., etc. So, the above letter transcription answered those questions. But the key-words in the Coats of Arms reference are "entitled officially". I take that to mean you can buy a Family Crest, hang it in your Rec-room or where ever, but using it in an official capacity, such as on your business or personal mail could invite a lawsuit from the official owner. ***** Reply to the LIST ONLY - Please! ***** ***** And, thanks for such consideration ***** Pádraig Mór, An Sean Gabhar

Hello Toni Thank you for your offer. My great grandfather was born on Coney Island (Innisdadrom), Killadysert Civil Parish, Co.Clare in mid 1800s. Would you please search for GINNANE for that year? Any assistance will be greatly appreciated. Marilyn Mercer Windsor NSW Australia.

The Arms of Irish Septs [http://www.heraldry.ws/index.html] Not all ancient Irish families have traditional arms recorded in authoritative heraldic sources. The Genealogical Office in Dublin, formerly known as the Office of Arms, is of course the principal source for such information. Grants and even Confirmations of Arms to individual members of a sept do not give to other persons of the same name, not included in the terms of the grant or confirmation, any right to use such arms. There are, however, a number of coats of arms on record which by custom are regarded as appertaining to all members of a sept. At this point it would be well to consider what we mean by the term "sept" - the word "clan" has been avoided because its use might imply the existence in Ireland of a clan system like that so highly developed in Scotland, which in fact we never had in this country. The term "sept" has never, as far as I know, been given an authoritative technical definition. It can perhaps best be explained by saying that it is a collective term describing a group of persons who, or whose immediate and known ancestors, bore a common surname and inhabited the same locality. Some danger exists of persons not of the true ancestry of a sept being inextricably identified with it. There is no doubt that up to the middle of the seventeenth century many of the labouring class had no hereditary surnames. This is referred to here only to indicate a possible objection to a wide interpretation of sept arms, namely that "serfs" (as they have been called in this connection) may, when the practice of using transitory surnames died out, have assumed as their permanent surnames those of their masters, rather in the same way as the slaves of the plantations in the West Indies sometimes assumed planter surnames. While this contention is not without substance, the consensus of opinion is that such assumption was not at all widespread. The elasticity inherent in the concept of sept arms is repugnant to British heraldic practice. In England armorial bearings are held to emanate from the Sovereign and are hereditary, though devoid of sanctions to protect what may be regarded as a family heirloom and personal property; in Scotland the right to bear arms is strictly regulated by law; on the Continent, again, heraldic usage differs considerably from British. Ulster King of Arms (as the head of the Irish Office of Arms in Dublin was called) who derived his authority, like Garter and Lyon, from the King of Great Britain and Ireland, continued to exercise his functions in Ireland until March 31, 1943, when his office was transferred to the Government of Ireland and has since been known as the Genealogical Office, its head being entitled Chief Herald of Ireland. This transfer took place more than twenty years after the establishment of the Irish Free State. On taking over we were at first inclined to adopt the British attitude in heraldic matters; but after a few years the particular conditions existing in Ireland, politically and historically, induced a modification of outlook, especially in regard to sept arms. In England and Scotland all arms to be found in the records of the heraldic authorities, if not extinct, can be claimed by certain specific individuals. Sept arms, as recorded in the Office of Arms in Dublin Castle somewhat loosely to be regarded as appertaining to all members of the sept. The peculiar circumstances of Ireland, it may be added, were recognised two centuries before the transfer to an Irish authority took place, since Confirmations of Arms, based on use, were issued in Ireland, but not in Great Britain where settled conditions existed. It must be emphasised that the acceptance of the principle of sept arms in no way implies that arms appertain to a surname as such. It does not mean, for example, that every man called Kelly or O'Kelly may legitimately use the well-known arms of O'Kelly of Ui Maine. There were several distinct septs of O'Kelly; and O'Kellys of the Meath or Kilkenny septs have no better title to the said arms than a Murphy or an O'Brien. No one, however, can reasonably object to an O'Kelly taking a proprietary interest in those arms, provided that he is unquestionably of a family originating in the O'Kelly country in Connacht. Briefly, then, the position is that many Irish coats of arms may be displayed without impropriety by any person of the sept indicated if he really does belong to that sept. Nevertheless anyone wishing to bear arms in the true heraldic sense, e.g. to have them inscribed on silver or seal or in stone carving, would be well advised to apply for a Confirmation of such arms from the Chief Herald of Ireland, which can be obtained at a moderate fee on production of evidence of descent. Corroborative evidence of "user" is also required in all cases where the proof afforded by descent is inadequate. Searches to obtain such evidence are undertaken by the Genealogical Office. [From "More Irish Families" by Edward MacLysaght, the first Chief Herald of Ireland. ] Footnote by Eddie Geoghegan [http://www.heraldry.ws/index.html} The arms to which MacLysaght refers and which fall in the category of sept arms include, but are not limited to the following ...Aherne, McAuliffe, McAuley (McAwley), Barrett (Cork), Barry, O'Beirne, Blake, Boland, Boylan, Boyle, Brady, Brennan (Connacht), Brennan (Ossory), O'Brien, Broder(ick), Browne (Galway), Burke, Butler, Byrne, McCabe, Cahill, Callaghan, McCann, O'Carroll (Ely), McCarten, McCarthy, Casey, Cassidy, Clancy, Clery, Coffey (Cork), Coghlan, Colgan, Concannon, Condon, O'Connell, O'Connor (five septs - Don, Faly, Kerry, Sligo and Corcomroe), Connolly, Conry (Offaly), Conroy (Mulconry, King), Considine, Corrigan, Costello, Cotter, Creagh, Crean, Crowley, Cullane (Collins), Cullen, Cullinan, Curtin, Cusack, Dalton, Daly, Darcy, Davoren, O'Dea, Dempsey, McDermot, Dillon, Dinneen, Doherty, Donlevy, McDonnell (Clare and Connaught), McDonnell (of the Glens), O'Donnell, Donnellon (Donlon), Donnelly, McDonogh, Donohue, Donovan, Doran, O'Dowd, Doyle, Driscoll, Duggan, Dunne, O'Dwyer, Egan, McEnchroe (Crowe), McEniry (Henry), McEvoy, Fagan, Fahy, Fallon, Farrell, Finnegan, Fitzgerald, Fitzgibbon, Fitspatrick, Flaherty, Flanagan, Fleming, Flynn, Fogarty, Fox (from Kearney), French (Galway), Friel, Gallagher, Galvin, O'Gara, McGarry, Garvey, Guinness (McGuinness, Magennis, McGenis), Geoghegan, Geraghty, Gilfoyle, McGillycuddy, Gorman (Mc and O'), Gormley, McGovern (Magauran), Grady,, McGrath, Griffin (O'Griffy), McGuire (Maguire), Hackett, O'Hagan, Halloran, O'Hanlon, Hanly, Hannon, Hanraghty, O'Hara, Hary, Hartagan, O'Hea (Hayes, Hughes), Heffernan, Hegarty, Hennessy, Hynes (O'Heyne, Hynds), Hickey, Higgins (O'Higgin), Hogan, Holohan, Horan, McHugh, Hurley, McInerney, Jordan (McSurtain), Joyce, Kavanagh (Cavanagh), Keane (O'Cahan), Kearney, Keating, O'Keeffe, O'Kelly (Uí Maine), McKenna, Kennedy, Keogh (Connacht), McKeown, Kieran (Kearns), Kinneally (Munster), Kinsella, Kirwan, Lacy (de Lacy), Lally (Mullally), Lawlor (Lalor), O'Leary, Lonergan, O'Loughlin, McLoughlin (formerly O'Melaghlin), McLoughlin (Tirconnel), Lynch (Galway), McLysaght, Madden, McMahon (Oriel), McMahon (Thomond), O'Mahony, O'Malley, Malone, Mangan, McManus, Martin (Galway), Meagher (Maher), O'Meara, Meehan, Molloy (Mulloy), Moloney, Monaghan, Mooney, Moran, O'More (Moore), Moriarty, Moroney, Morris (Morrison, Galway), O'Mullen, Mulvihil, Murphy (Muskerry), Murphy (O'Morchoe, Wexford), McMurrough, Naughton (Naghten), Nagle, McNally, McNamara, Neilon (Nealon), O'Neill, Nolan, Nugent, Phelan (Whelan, Felan), Plunkett, Power, Purcell (of Loughmoe), Quigley (Cogley, Kegley), McQuillan, Quinn (Annaly), Quinn (Thomond), Quinlan, Rafferty, McRannall (Reynolds), Redmond, Regan (Reagan), Reilly, Riordan, Roche, O'Rourke, Ryan (Mulrian), Scanlan, Shanly, Shaughnessy, O'Shea, Sheehan, Sheehy, Sheridan, Shiel (Shields), O'Sullivan Mór, O'Sullivan Beare, Sweeney, Taaffe, McTiernan, O'Tierney, Tobin, O'Toole, Troy (Trehy), Tully (McAtilla), Wall, Walsh (Iverk) and Woulfe. ***** Reply to the LIST ONLY - Please! ***** ***** And, thanks for such consideration ***** Pádraig Mór, An Sean Gabhar

Cheers everyone, I found my Kitsons in the 1901 Census in Lisgurreen where Stephen Purtil had listed in the Griffith's Valuation. My grandfather, Michael Kitson, had 10 brothers and sisters, including Bridget, who married John O'Meara. One of their daughters, Alice, is still living and married a gentleman named Kelly. Their son, John, saw my inquiry on RootsWeb and contacted me. We are now in correspondence. As a special surprise, my first cousin who lives about 10 miles from me was visiting John a few weeks before and now I have pictures of my cousins in Ligreen as well as pictures of the Kitson house and a couple of tombstones. I am very happy. I found the Ellis Island information for a few of the Kitson brothers and sisters (Patrick, James, Michael and Annie and maybe Mary) who immigrated to NY. John told me one sister, Annie, returned. Another brother, Joseph, married a Lynch lady in the area and lived in the Kitson house. I want to pin down all the names and then go backward to trace Stephen Dee, Bridget Purtil, Anne Kitson, the Kitson ancestors and the ancestors of Michael and Mary Keane of Moanmore North (today's Monmore). I'm also trying to find the Morgan McSweeney/Ann Flynn branch. I'm not sure of where they lived, but two of their children, my grandfather Maurice Francis Sweeney (I think the Mc was dropped at Ellis Island somehow), and sisters Nellie, Norah and Mrs. Richard McCarthy all settled in Waterbury CT. Maurice left from Castleisland and Nellie listed Abbeyfeale as her last residence. I know that's in Kerry. But finding the relatives I have found through my newly acquainted family is truly the pot of gold at rainbow's end. Thanks for the continued help and prayers. God Bless you all and my family in Clare. Ned Sweeney Central Islip NY

Krikey! we seem to be back on the myth that O'Gorman was a Governor of Newfoundland. How did that resurrection make its way to IRL-CLARE? ----- Original Message ----- From: <jpmcnamara@sbcglobal.net> To: "jeanine" <joyzee_goil@yahoo.com>; <y-irl@yahoogroups.com>; "MK Douglas" <rkdoug2000@yahoo.com>; "Dr. Jane Lyons" <sniliaghin@iol.ie>; <irl-clare@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2006 7:44 PM Subject: Re: [IRL-CLARE] Young Irelanders : Re: [Y-IRL] Non Gen...The NineConvicts > Hi Jane, > > Am getting confused here, which lot were hanged? Not the 'nine convicts' > the 'young Irelanders' ? Or is it just the lot on your site at the > referenced URL? > > I do have an obscure reference, to which some misinformation may have been > my fault, as this reference is just the author's writings based on his > research. On the IRL-Clare list, someone said they wished they knew who > was responsible for this one bit of mis-information on the Internet... > > ... and were referring to Richard O'Gorman becoming called a Governor of > Newfoundland, and then in the next breath vehemently expressing that > Richard O'Gorman has never went to Newfoundland. And I do see what seem > to be some of my letters reposted as from another person, and I should > emphasize the 'seem to be' part, as if one has the same book, then the > reference might very well have been just quoted again. > > Anyway, this little book I refer to, is an old book published in 1979. It > seems I caused some great guffaws when I quoted from this book Judge > William Hughes Mulligan's St Patrick's Day tongue-in-cheek speech about > how Christopher Columbus was really an Irishman named Lynch. It was the > opening to his chapter entitled "The Runaround in Rome" and was a bit of > payback to what the author considered his poor treatment at the hands of > the Vatican archivists. One way to get even so to speak poorly of > Italians, a payback for one repository preventing his access to research > materials that would confirm that many priests went to Italy from Ireland > after Cromwell's arrival. > [also note: someone was so impressed with this letter of mine, that > without asking they made it into a website. The website was just a > reprint of my letter to Ireland-L@rootsweb.com. This site has finally > been taken down.] > > Anyway, this book also has the story of how the Queen was advised that Sir > Charles Duffy who was elected prime minister of the province of Victoria > was among the men accused of taking part in an armed uprising, the very > group she pardoned. (I am paraphrasing here so hope I am not changing the > story.) At this bit of information she allegedly asked to investigate > what became of the other eight people. At this point the book does a run > down on how successful these people were, at how short sighted the English > were to let such great people go. One of the people is the one I am sure > I am the one guilty of spreading the mis-information, (if it is untrue), > but it is what is in this book, I did not make it up, and that is about > Richard O'Gorman. So far I have ducked this issue with my silence. <VBG> > Anyway, here is a rundown from this book of the remaining eight: > < > 1) Thomas Meagher became governor of Montana, and he was a general during > the American Civil War, > 2) Terrance McManus became a general in the United States Army. > 3) Patrick Donahue became a general in the United States Army. > 4) Richard O'Gorman became governor of Newfoundland. [This is the one I > have heard the discord about.] > 5) Michael Ireland became attorney general of Australia > 6) Morris Lyene also became attorney general of Australia > 7) Thomas McGee became a member of Parliament in Canada and minister if > agriculture > 8) John Mitchell became a writer and prominent politician in New York, > fathering a son who became mayor of New York. > This episode is but a microcosm of the past tragedy of Ireland and the > gain of the rest of the world during the oppression of Ireland. And what > of the future? ... >> > So will just say what this reference is, its a fun little book about the > author's research into a potential ancestor. The author's mother said they > were related to the Galloping Hogan. This book is hardly any kind of > primary source, like I said, just a fun read. > It is: > 'The Quest for the Galloping Hogan, A man of Irish parentage seeks the > truth about a legendary ancestor and finds the Irish soul' by Matthew J. > Culligan-Hogan, ISBN 0-517-53665-X > > This book also has the famous Thomas Meagher court-side speech that is > often quoted just before the above treatment: > < > The spokesman, Thomas Meagher, said, "My Lord, this is our first offense, > but not our last. If you will be easy with us this once, we promise on > our word as gentlemen to do better next time. Sure, we won't be fools > enough to get caught." >> > That's all I have to add to this growing controversy. Jeanine seems to > have started it here. (LOL) > > Best regards, > > Jim McNamara > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Dr. Jane Lyons > To: jeanine ; y-irl@yahoogroups.com ; MK Douglas > Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2006 2:25 PM > Subject: Young Irelanders : Re: [Y-IRL] Non Gen...The Nine Convicts > > > <SNIPPED> > > Being hanged, drrawn and quartered did happen lots and heads re hung on > poles and things > > This lot were hanged........ > > I'm sure drawing and quartering was part of the deal > http://www.from-ireland.net/censussubs/fer/hangings1641.htm > > Jane > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "MK Douglas" <rkdoug2000@yahoo.com> > To: "jeanine" <joyzee_goil@yahoo.com>; <y-irl@yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2006 6:02 PM > Subject: Re: [Y-IRL] Non Gen...The Nine Convicts > > Check message # 28688 by Dan Donahue--there are some errors here. > > > > __._,_.___ > Messages in this topic (1) Reply (via web post) | Start a new topic > Messages | Files | Photos | Links | Database | Polls | Members | Calendar > > Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID required) > Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest | Switch > format to Traditional > Visit Your Group | Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use | Unsubscribe . > __,_._,___ > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > IRL-CLARE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Edward, Here's one way to get a rough approximation*: go to the Griffiths survey at www.clarelibrary.ie and plot the Flanagan names on a map of Clare. Pádraig (the Paddy that was) * The population of that part of Ireland in the 1850s was broadly divided into (a) Horse & Carriage (the landowning class) (b) Wigs, Quill Pens & Stethoscopes (legal, medical and other professions) (c) Drums & Trumpets (military) (d) Scythes, Slans and Spades (farmers) (e) Leather Aprons and Pencils-Behind-Ears (shopkeepers and tradespeople) (f) Hammers & Tongs (artisans) (g) Chalices and Bibles (the Catholic church and CofI) (h) Bare Feet (the itinerant and/or indigent rest) The Griffiths only covered (a) & (d) so it only gives you an approximate idea of the Flanagan population. However, the Clare County Library website contains masses of other information, e.g. directories of towns which list the shop owners, doctors, and other pillars of the communities. -----Original Message----- From: irl-clare-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:irl-clare-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of garlicfog@earthlink.net Sent: 10 September 2006 19:10 To: irl-clare@rootsweb.com Subject: [IRL-CLARE] Flanagan Towns Does anyone know which towns in County Clare had the largest concentration of Flanagans at the time of the Great Famine and then in the next 10-15 years afterwards. All I know is that my William Edward Flanagan and family were from County Clare and left in 1861 for Boston and settling in East Greenwich, RI. Edward Hagerty Monroe, CT ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRL-CLARE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Clara, Whilst looking for Caseys in Kilfenora you might also like to look at the Casey cluster 15 miles to the East in Tubber at http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/pcasey/ They were no far from Kilfenora and I suspect that all the Caseys from that part of Clare were related (OK, OK, we are all related if we go back to Noah's Ark, but you know what I mean :-)) Anyway, there it is for what it's worth. Pádraig (the Paddy that was) -----Original Message----- From: irl-clare-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:irl-clare-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of CMere85162@aol.com Sent: 10 September 2006 16:11 To: irl-clare@rootsweb.com Subject: [IRL-CLARE] 1866 index Hi Tony I'm also looking for CASEY in Kilfenorra, if you're not already swamped Thanks, Clara ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRL-CLARE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Hi Kathleen, I missed adding this on to my first letter, but in the reference I mentioned, just following Thomas Meagher's speech which ends... "...Sure, we won't be fool enough to get caught." ...is the following: "The enraged judge decreed that the defendants should be hanged, drawn, and quartered. Passionate and awesome protests caused Queen Victoria to commute the sentence to banishment for life and transportation to Australia." So if this is also not true, I am the likely person that first put this onto the Internet, but, just onto a mail list. Regards, Jim McNamara ----- Original Message ----- From: MK Douglas To: Dr. Jane Lyons ; jeanine ; y-irl@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2006 4:01 PM Subject: Re: Young Irelanders : Re: [Y-IRL] Non Gen...The Nine Convicts Thank you, Jane for your comments, and all the links on these people. I read the "Speeches from the Dock" from cover to cover more years ago than I care to remember, and I must admit that I have forgotten most, although at the age of 13, I could recite Emmet's and Meagher's. I had borrowed a very old copy from my father's best friend, a man from Wexford--my father and he would be over 100 years old now. Your reference has pushed me to look for a copy for myself now. The "hung drawn and quartered' is one of those things that has stuck in my head, and I will research further. I am not an internet believer, and I am most often not a Wikipedia user, although I will use as a shortcut if I know from other sources that it is correct. Kathleen " [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] __._,_.___ Messages in this topic (3) Reply (via web post) | Start a new topic Messages | Files | Photos | Links | Database | Polls | Members | Calendar Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID required) Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest | Switch format to Traditional Visit Your Group | Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use | Unsubscribe Recent Activity a.. 23New Members b.. 1New Photos Visit Your Group SPONSORED LINKS a.. Car rental ireland b.. Ireland rental car c.. Ireland vacation d.. Ireland travel e.. Ireland florist Yahoo! Travel Find Great Deals Flights, Hotels, Cars, Cruises... Yahoo! TV "The 9" Daily count down of top Web finds. Y! GeoCities Create a Web Site Easy-to-use tools. Get started now. . __,_._,___

Hi Jane, Am getting confused here, which lot were hanged? Not the 'nine convicts' the 'young Irelanders' ? Or is it just the lot on your site at the referenced URL? I do have an obscure reference, to which some misinformation may have been my fault, as this reference is just the author's writings based on his research. On the IRL-Clare list, someone said they wished they knew who was responsible for this one bit of mis-information on the Internet... ... and were referring to Richard O'Gorman becoming called a Governor of Newfoundland, and then in the next breath vehemently expressing that Richard O'Gorman has never went to Newfoundland. And I do see what seem to be some of my letters reposted as from another person, and I should emphasize the 'seem to be' part, as if one has the same book, then the reference might very well have been just quoted again. Anyway, this little book I refer to, is an old book published in 1979. It seems I caused some great guffaws when I quoted from this book Judge William Hughes Mulligan's St Patrick's Day tongue-in-cheek speech about how Christopher Columbus was really an Irishman named Lynch. It was the opening to his chapter entitled "The Runaround in Rome" and was a bit of payback to what the author considered his poor treatment at the hands of the Vatican archivists. One way to get even so to speak poorly of Italians, a payback for one repository preventing his access to research materials that would confirm that many priests went to Italy from Ireland after Cromwell's arrival. [also note: someone was so impressed with this letter of mine, that without asking they made it into a website. The website was just a reprint of my letter to Ireland-L@rootsweb.com. This site has finally been taken down.] Anyway, this book also has the story of how the Queen was advised that Sir Charles Duffy who was elected prime minister of the province of Victoria was among the men accused of taking part in an armed uprising, the very group she pardoned. (I am paraphrasing here so hope I am not changing the story.) At this bit of information she allegedly asked to investigate what became of the other eight people. At this point the book does a run down on how successful these people were, at how short sighted the English were to let such great people go. One of the people is the one I am sure I am the one guilty of spreading the mis-information, (if it is untrue), but it is what is in this book, I did not make it up, and that is about Richard O'Gorman. So far I have ducked this issue with my silence. <VBG> Anyway, here is a rundown from this book of the remaining eight: < 1) Thomas Meagher became governor of Montana, and he was a general during the American Civil War, 2) Terrance McManus became a general in the United States Army. 3) Patrick Donahue became a general in the United States Army. 4) Richard O'Gorman became governor of Newfoundland. [This is the one I have heard the discord about.] 5) Michael Ireland became attorney general of Australia 6) Morris Lyene also became attorney general of Australia 7) Thomas McGee became a member of Parliament in Canada and minister if agriculture 8) John Mitchell became a writer and prominent politician in New York, fathering a son who became mayor of New York. This episode is but a microcosm of the past tragedy of Ireland and the gain of the rest of the world during the oppression of Ireland. And what of the future? ... > So will just say what this reference is, its a fun little book about the author's research into a potential ancestor. The author's mother said they were related to the Galloping Hogan. This book is hardly any kind of primary source, like I said, just a fun read. It is: 'The Quest for the Galloping Hogan, A man of Irish parentage seeks the truth about a legendary ancestor and finds the Irish soul' by Matthew J. Culligan-Hogan, ISBN 0-517-53665-X This book also has the famous Thomas Meagher court-side speech that is often quoted just before the above treatment: < The spokesman, Thomas Meagher, said, "My Lord, this is our first offense, but not our last. If you will be easy with us this once, we promise on our word as gentlemen to do better next time. Sure, we won't be fools enough to get caught." > That's all I have to add to this growing controversy. Jeanine seems to have started it here. (LOL) Best regards, Jim McNamara ----- Original Message ----- From: Dr. Jane Lyons To: jeanine ; y-irl@yahoogroups.com ; MK Douglas Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2006 2:25 PM Subject: Young Irelanders : Re: [Y-IRL] Non Gen...The Nine Convicts <SNIPPED> Being hanged, drrawn and quartered did happen lots and heads re hung on poles and things This lot were hanged........ I'm sure drawing and quartering was part of the deal http://www.from-ireland.net/censussubs/fer/hangings1641.htm Jane ----- Original Message ----- From: "MK Douglas" <rkdoug2000@yahoo.com> To: "jeanine" <joyzee_goil@yahoo.com>; <y-irl@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2006 6:02 PM Subject: Re: [Y-IRL] Non Gen...The Nine Convicts Check message # 28688 by Dan Donahue--there are some errors here. __._,_.___ Messages in this topic (1) Reply (via web post) | Start a new topic Messages | Files | Photos | Links | Database | Polls | Members | Calendar Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID required) Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest | Switch format to Traditional Visit Your Group | Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use | Unsubscribe . __,_._,___

Does anyone know which towns in County Clare had the largest concentration of Flanagans at the time of the Great Famine and then in the next 10-15 years afterwards. All I know is that my William Edward Flanagan and family were from County Clare and left in 1861 for Boston and settling in East Greenwich, RI. Edward Hagerty Monroe, CT

Came across this site in my travels: http://www.heraldry.ws/index.html Coats of Arms from Ireland and around the World by Eddie Geoghegan. This site is a gallery of coats of arms or heraldic graphics. It is FREE. You may browse as much as you want for as long as you want. No membership is required and there is no limit to how many coats of arms graphics you may view. Regards: Larry.

Hi Elaine, I hadn't realised - or may have forgotten, and, if so, please forgive me - that you are working on Caseys in the north Burren area. Have you already identified a family cluster there ? Pádraig (the Paddy that was) -----Original Message----- From: irl-clare-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:irl-clare-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Elaine Pratt Sent: 10 September 2006 10:57 To: irl-clare@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [IRL-CLARE] l866 Index Hi Toni, It is very good of you to make this offer, I wonder if the index covers the Ballyvaughan, Gleninagh, Murroughhtooy area. I would be grateful for any Halloran, McMahon, Casey. Much appreciate your help. Regards, Elaine ----- Original Message ----- From: "Toni Mason" <tmason@stny.rr.com> To: <IRL-Clare@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, September 09, 2006 1:30 PM Subject: [IRL-CLARE] l866 Index > Hi, > > I currently have the Index of births from Ireland for the year l866. If anyone would like me to check out a name I would be glad to do it. > > I enjoy this list and have received a lot of good advice and would like to reciprocate. > > I only have this microfilm for another week so please just one or two names. > > Toni > Southern Tier NYS > > Researching: GUINANE, HOURIHAN, CURRY, BOLAND, WALSH, MULHOLLAND, OMALLEY > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRL-CLARE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRL-CLARE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I was most fortunate to find my immigrant Patrick McNamara was a census enumerator and had some good handwriting. It supported the tradition that he was well educated. I was nice to see his handwriting! He settled here in SW New York State. Marilyn

Hi Toni, Would appreciate a look for any McMahon or Halloran from Ballyvaughan, Gleninagh, North Clare area. Many thanks. Elaine

Thanks Patrick, I like your website it's very accessible (important to me) the people I'm looking for are listed below. They came to the US and lived in MA worked in a shoe factory and farmed among some other stuff. Patrick CASEY b. 1844 James CASEY b. 1813 both Parish of Kilfenora and Julia O' Neil b.abt 1876 (I'm not sure where) Mary O'Grady b. 1844 Kilshanny

Message: 2 Date: Sat, 9 Sep 2006 08:30:04 -0400 From: "Toni Mason" <tmason@stny.rr.com> Subject: [IRL-CLARE] l866 Index To: <IRL-Clare@rootsweb.com> Message-ID: <000a01c6d40b$ae514bd0$845d434a@MasonXP> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Hi, I currently have the Index of births from Ireland for the year l866. If anyone would like me to check out a name I would be glad to do it. I enjoy this list and have received a lot of good advice and would like to reciprocate. I only have this microfilm for another week so please just one or two names. Toni Southern Tier NYS Researching: GUINANE, HOURIHAN, CURRY, BOLAND, WALSH, MULHOLLAND, OMALLEY Hi Toni Thank you so much for your kind offer. I'm researching the families of Michael MEERE and Honor QUINLIVAN from the Clondegad / Kilmihil areas. If you could look them up, I'm be very grateful. Kind regards to you and everyone on the list Maggie, Canberra, Oz

Sharon I have had the same problem twice in the last year. I did exactly as you did both time and got back on immediately. Clifford In Wild and Wonderful West Virginia the Gauley River is at peak rafting season. -----Original Message----- From: irl-clare-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:irl-clare-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Sharon Carberry Sent: Thursday, August 31, 2006 5:38 AM To: IRL-Clare@rootsweb.com Subject: [IRL-CLARE] For those having difficulty receiving postings If anyone is coming to the Clare list archives on the Rootsweb website in order to see list postings because the new ones are not appearing in your inbox provided via your internet service, I had the same problem and solved it yesterday by re-subscribing. It had been my expectation that I could continue without interruption on my end, only that the list itself was migrating to a new server and would drop the "L" from the list name. I have been trying to make postings throughout the list migration period and finally yesterday received a return message from Rootsweb, stating that the list administrator would be reviewing my proffered posting since it is from a non-member (meaning me). I then re-subscribed and I am back to the former capacity of receiving postings in my own inbox and making postings. I am assuming that others are having the same experience. Other than the one automatically-generated message yesterday, I have had no guidance on the problem. I just did this caveman-style and it worked. Sharon Carberry Georgia USA ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRL-CLARE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

----- Original Message ----- From: "Larry Brennan" <bbs.ennis@eircom.net> To: <irl-clare@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2006 7:58 AM Subject: Re: [GIRL-CLARE] Family Coat Of Arms: > Came across this site in my travels: > > http://www.heraldry.ws/index.html > > Coats of Arms from Ireland and around the World by Eddie Geoghegan. > This site is a gallery of coats of arms or heraldic graphics. It is FREE. > You may browse as much as you want for as long as you want. No membership > is > required and there is no limit to how many coats of arms graphics you may > view. > Regards: >Larry. Well, this is a nice site, but I think FREE means browsing only, although the webpage also refers to FREE blazons from around the world. I wonder what he means by 'FREE', because you likely know, there are no Generic Free blazons. This, on question to them, was verified for me several years ago by the Genealogical Office, Dublin. They pointed out that Coats are owned only by the person or family for whom they were granted. The Genealogical office will create one for anyone, in accordance with one's design, provided it doesn't clash with another person's one - but it is very expensive - about $5-6 thousand dollars. For commercial enterprises it is a tax write- off, but not for us poor plebes, even if we could afford the cost Also very interesting in that site was this foot note excerpt about the book of O'Hart's Genealogies : "..."Irish Pedigrees or the Origin and Stem of the Irish Nation", by John O'Hart is one of the best known Irish genealogical publications in the world. The first edition appeared in 1876, but was followed by several subsequent editions that added greatly to the overall size of the work. The most quoted edition was published in New York in 1923, twenty years after the author's death. It is worth mentioning here that the original work did not include and heraldic (coat of arms) information and that this was added to posthumous publications by unscrupulous publishers, presumably to increase sales. In general, O'Hart is a dubious source, at best, for such information (see quote below from Edward MacLysaght in regard to this topic). John O'Hart was born in Crossmolina, Co. Mayo, in 1824. He received an excellent education with the intention of joining the priesthood. However, he instead spent two years in the constabulary (the police), after which he was employed by the Commissioners of National Education in Ireland from 1845, the first year of the Famine. He became an Associate in Arts at the Queen's University, and thereafter he was an active member of several scholarly societies. He was an avid genealogist and took a keen interest in Irish history, despite never receiving formal training as an historian. Politically he was an Irish nationalist, and in religious matters, a committed Catholic. Both of these factors permeated his work. He died in 1902 in Clontarf, Co. Dublin, at the age of 78. O'Hart used many sources to compile the information that appears in his major work. His principal sources were Gaelic genealogies, like those of O'Clery, MacFirbis and O'Farrell. Along with the Gaelic annals, especially the Annals of the Four Masters, O'Hart was able to 'reconstruct' the medieval and ancient pedigrees that appear here. He also used later sources, like the works of Burke, Collins, Harris, Lodge and Ware to extend these lineages into the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries. But arguably the most important information contained in these genealogies came where O'Hart gathered the details directly from the families concerned, often from private papers or family tradition. These sections concern the later period, particularly post 1800, and are good for many specific localities like western Co. Clare. There are two types of genealogies in O'Hart; the genealogies of the Gaelic families and the genealogies of Anglo-Norman and other later settlers. O'Hart made one important distinction in his treatment of these. Irish mythology records that every family was descended from a certain Milesius of Spain who in about 1700 BC led his followers to invade and conquer Ireland. The Christian monks who wrote these genealogies down in the 9th century, 2,500 years after Milesius, also added their own beliefs. So they recorded that Milesius was the 36th in descent from Adam! O'Hart, being both an ardent believer in the Gaelic myths and Christianity, followed their example. In his Gaelic genealogies a number representing the generation of descent from Adam precedes every generation. By contrast the Anglo-Normans and later invaders made no such claims, so O'Hart's genealogies of these families do not include these numbers. O'Hart showed, probably incorrectly, that every Gaelic family was descended from four of Milesius's family. These were his three sons, Heber, Ir and Heremon, and his uncle Ithe. These four were considered the 'stem' lines of the genealogies that followed. While he undertook a great deal of research, using the majority of available published sources, many Gaelic scholars have superseded his work over the last 100 years. He was not familiar with the abundant unpublished Gaelic manuscript sources available. These have shown that many of his genealogies are incorrect for the years prior to 1600 AD. Furthermore, O'Hart was not a professional historian or genealogist, and had little training in using the esoteric sources he consulted. As a consequence he misunderstood a great deal about Gaelic society and culture, a world which had largely disappeared from Ireland long before he put pen to paper. He was also credulous in using the sources he did consult, believing that the myths were fact. Despite these limitations, careful use of his work can be very productive. His genealogies for the years after 1600 have great value, and are often unavailable elsewhere. He was also able to consult many sources which have since been destroyed or lost. In the words of Edward MacLysaght, Ireland's most famous authority on the history of surnames, he 'made use of it almost daily'. In relation to O'Hart and other similar publications, MacLysaght, also warns: "The subject of Irish families is one in which much interest is evinced, but the popular books usually consulted and regarded as authoritative, particularly in America, are in fact unreliable. The inaccurate and misleading information thus imparted with cumulative effect is, however, much more deplorable in the armorial [coats of arms] sphere than in the genealogical. It is an indisputable fact that the publication presenting colour plates of Irish arms which is probably most widely consulted is no less than seventy per cent inaccurate, not only in mere detail, but often in points of primary importance and of an elementary kind. Apart from their many grotesque heraldic blunders the compilers of this work seem to have had a sort of rule of thumb; if they could not find arms for one Irish sept they looked for the name of another somewhat resembling it in sound: thus, for example, they coolly assigned the arms of Boylan to Boland. This frequently resulted in the arms of some purely English family being inserted in their book of "Irish Arms" the Saxon Huggins being equated with O'Higgins, and so on. When this arbitrary method failed them they fell back on the arms of some great Irish sept. To quote one instance of this: Gleeson, Noonan and McFadden are all given the arms of O'Brien, though none of these septs had any connexion whatever with the O'Briens or with each other. Consequently many Americans of Irish descent are in good faith using erroneous and often English arms derived from the spurious source in question. A certain cachet has been given to this because, in the more recent editions of O'Hart's Irish Pedigrees, these same coloured plates have been inserted as if they were an integral part of O'Hart's book. The serious genealogist uses O'Hart with caution, if at all, for he is a far from reliable authority except for the quite modern period. John O'Hart, however, undoubtedly did a vast amount of research, no matter how he used the information he acquired: I know that some of these errors of ascription can actually be traced to him, but it is surely an injustice to him that his well-known name should be used as a cover for the propagation of false and often ludicrous heraldic statements."

Yes, I asked the same question of the Admin. person at Co.Clare - but I didn't get an answer - probably because she's still on holidays in Ireland. You'll have to ask Mr. Billingsworth, The List Admin. The recent changes that Rootsweb introduced , seems to have this about. My positive thought was - Great! Rootsweb are now allowing attachments to be sent to Lists - but I don't think so. Although it would be a good idea in that we could send Scans of genealogical items, such as certificates of B.D.M's. to the List. ----- Original Message ----- From: <EAlt117@aol.com> To: <irl-cork@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2006 9:30 AM Subject: Re: IRL-CORK Digest, Vol 1, Issue 4 > Why is this digest coming in as an attachment. > Susan > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > IRL-CORK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >