Hi Patty, My apologies for taking so long to respond to your reply. Sometime I just don't know where the time goes. Unfortunately, the only information I have is what I posted about John Brazill, his wife Mary Shanahan and their children........some who married my Mason ancestors. So, until I research further, I'll just keep your information and touch base with you another time. Thanks for your reply. Judie Mason Chicago IL Shanalain@aol.com wrote: For Judie Mason, I have been researching the Shanahan line from Co. Clare for about 10 yrs. I haven't run across any Brazill in our family yet. The family farm is near the town of Broadford and it was originally farmed by William and Hanna Maloney Shanahan in the early 1800's. They had ten children, three settled in MN and six in ILL, and one stayed in Ire on the farm. If any of this information is familiar to you, or you would like more, please feel free to email me. patty ==== IRL-CLARE Mailing List ==== If you just want to subscribe to this list or unsubscribe from it, send e-mail to IRL-CLARE-L-request@rootsweb.com or (for the digest list) IRL-CLARE-D-request@rootsweb.com and put the word subscribe or unsubscribe in the message body. NO VIRUS warnings to be posted to the list. ============================== Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx

I changed the subject for those not interested. I have some friends doing a little digging with a few clues that I have. Who knows what will turn up. I have all my family buried together at Holy Cross cemetery in San Francisco. There are 19 buried together but I can only confirm 10 as mine. The other nine are O'Briens also but were transferred from another cemetery in 1929. Staff at Holy Cross state that 'no one can be buried with another unless they are related by blood or marriage'. The only clues left are following: 1. William O'Brien married Catherine O'Brien (nee O'Brien), date and place unknown. 2. Both were Catholic. Both native of Co Limerick 3. If they followed naming conventions their children in order are:(b. & d. SF) Catherine (1855-1923) John Francis (1856-1937) (John had two children buried here also) William Michael (1858-1925) Norah (1861-1874)(twin) James (1861-1878)(twin) Mary Ellen (1865-1918) Of the others buried with them: 4. Catherine O'Brien (1804-1889)(b. Ireland) 5. Margaret Holliday (nee O'Brien)(dau of 4)(1834-1887)(b. London) 6. William O'Brien (son of 4) (1846-1884)(b. London) 7. Laura Holliday (dau of 5)(b. 1880-SF, d. 1946-SF) 8. Johanna O'Brien (1845-1873)(native of Ireland) 9. Thomas O'Brien (1832-1887) (native of Ardagh, Co Limerick)******* 10. Priscilla O'Brien (wife of Thomas)(1829-1894)(native of Ireland) 11. Margaret M O'Brien (1866-1896)(b. ?) 12. Matilda O'Brien (1897-1897) (2 months)(dau of John and Mary)(possible 2nd wife of John Francis. He was divorced from his 1st wife (Matilda) in 1888). Because of the dates of death on most of these, there are no records available in San Francisco prior to 1906, the great earthquake. All information I have came from census logs and obituaries. Of the six Catholic churches in San Francisco prior to 1906, three were destroyed in the earthquake. I have already researched the remaining three churches and have found no information pertaining to any of the above. I have a list of their residences from 1856-1925 from the City Directories. The only clues I have are that my William and Catherine O'Brien both came from Co Limerick and were Catholic. After reading the History of the O'Briens by Ivar O'Brien and History of O'Briens by Hon Donough O'Brien, I found that the O'Brien lineage had 16 recorded marriages with cousins. With that thought in mind, it is possible that William and Catherine were cousins too. Three of the four death certificates after 1906 stated mother's maiden name as 'O'Brien'. If anyone has an ancestor who married a cousin or you are looking for that elusive brother or sister of an ancestor from the early 1800s, let me know if you connect. Mike O'Brien Grandson of John Francis, the only one in the family to marry. mike@obrienclan.com ----- Original Message ----- From: "padraigogealagain" <padraigogealagain@rogers.com> To: <irl-clare@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, September 11, 2006 6:04 PM Subject: Re: [IRL-CLARE] The Arms of Irish Septs- An Explanation (Part 1) >> The only way to know is to trace the lineage back. So far I am back to >> Co >> Limerick (1824). No town or parish nor parents names. > > Well, Mike, that is a 'BRICK WALL' I hope you can demolish it. I, > fortunately, have documentation to direct Galligan ancestors of > Cahercorney, > Co.Limerick - but then my ancestors, thankfully, were not of the > 'Diaspora". > In fact I was born there. I think I'll declare myself the 'The' of the > sub-sept of Co. Limerick :-) ! Ha, ha! > > Well said, Mike, about particularly O'Hart, but a lot of mis-informed > knowledge - or wishful thinking - is (and not can be) very conflicting; > it > tends to 'muddy the waters" > The stuff you gave Alanna on pre-16/17th centuries of the O'Hart > genealogies has long being declared by learned and well educated > genealogists, in the Irish expression as 'Rawmeash' ( pure rubbish) "! > > Why even Mac Lysaght said >

My greatgrandmother Sarah Kelly (1830-1900) was descended from the Kellys in Attyslany North. I believe her father was the Patrick Kelly in the Tithe Applotments and one brother was the Michael Kelly in Griffith's. I think she also had a brother Thomas who had sons Patrick (born about 1871) and Thomas (born about 1876) and daughter Catherine (born about 1890). Does this sound familiar to anyone? Diane

G'Day Mike Could you advise on the situation with the Doherty name, I guess Dougherty, Doharty, Docherty, Dockerty, and probably originally O'Docataigh. Robert in Aus -----Original Message----- From: irl-clare-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:irl-clare-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Mike O'Brien Sent: Tuesday, 12 September 2006 9:19 AM To: irl-clare@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [IRL-CLARE] The Arms of Irish Septs- An Explanation (Part 1) One more point, Padraig: 1. No serious genealogist of this age puts any credence in any one works. I use O'Hart, O'Laughlin, MacLysaght, Keating, Bell and the Four Masters. According to O'Laughlin (The Book of Irish Families Great & Small): O'Scanlan Scannlain, O'Scannell, Scanlan, Scanlane, Skanlane Families of the name of Scanlon can find their family commemorated in place names such as Ballyscanlon, Ballymacscanlon, Scanlansland and Scanlans Island in Ireland. Those of the name may find origins from one of several different family lines. Some descend from Mac Scannlain of Louth, others from O'Scannlain of the province of Munster, and others still from O'Scannell of the north of Ireland in counties Sligo and Donegal. These names have been interchanged from time to time, so origins maybe difficult to determine without some specific research. Keatings History gives the family of O'Scanlon in Co. Kerry, and again separately in Co. Limerick in the barony of Pubblebrien, along with the MacArthur family. In the older territory of Oriel we find "MacScannlain" centered at Ballymacscanlan, in the barony of Lower Dundalk barony in Co. Louth. In more modern times the family had faded from view there. Counties, Kerry, Clare and Sligo were all principal locations for the name of Scanlon in the 17th century. Scannell was a principal name of Cork and Kerry at that time, as it was later in the 1890 birth index. That index shows 54 births of Scanlon and 42 births of Scanlan, concentrated in Kerry, Clare, Sligo, Limerick and Cork. You will notice here that this also coincides the fact that both Scanlan and MacArthur lived in the same area in Co limerick as O'Hart had indicated. I agree that there will always be several branches from different areas of most families. O'Hart shows O'Brien with 12 pedigrees. Ten pedigrees in Munster and two pedigrees in Ulster. The two in Ulster are not of the same line as the other 10. The only way to know is to trace the lineage back. So far I am back to Co Limerick (1824). No town or parish nor parents names. Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "padraigogealagain" <padraigogealagain@rogers.com> To: <irl-clare@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, September 11, 2006 3:47 PM Subject: Re: [IRL-CLARE] The Arms of Irish Septs- An Explanation (Part 1) > Two points, Mike,: > 1). No serious genealogist of this age puts any credence on the works of > O'Hart genealogies prior to the 16/17th. centuries. > > 2). Mac Lysaght [Surnames of Ireland] in writing about the O' Scanlans, as > opposed to the Mac Scanlans who have the same Gaelic etymological root > wrote: > > "(O) Scanlan - O Scanlain ( for derivation see Scannell). There were > several Septs of this name (see map), the most important being of West" > Munster [This writer's footnote: Not the ancestral territory of > O'Brien/McNamara/McMahon in east Clare]. "There are no less that eight > place-names embodying the surname in different parts of Ireland. The > numerous Scanlans of Co. Clare mostly belong to the Connacht sept. Further > north Scanlans are really as a rule Scannells. Bibl. IF Map Cork, > Fermanagh > and Galway" > > " (O) Scannell - O Scannail ( The early meaning of the word scannal is > contention, not scandal). Properly a sept of north-west Ireland, it has > become Scanlan in Co.Sligo, where Scanlans are really as a rule Scannells. > IF Map Sligo." > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike O'Brien" <mike@obrienclan.com> > To: <irl-clare@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Monday, September 11, 2006 6:12 PM > Subject: Re: [IRL-CLARE] The Arms of Irish Septs- An Explanation (Part 1) > > >> Alanna, >> I didn't send the list but will give you some answers. >> There is no designated Chief of Clan Scanlan at this time. If and when >> the Clan organizes and has at least ten members, they could elect a Chief >> for their clan. Their title would be 'Hon' Chief of Clan Scanlan. I >> would suggest they contact The Clans of Ireland, Ltd to get registered >> also which will help build their membership. Information to help you get >> started is located here (http://www.araltas.com/features/scanlan/). >> >> Scanlan is an old gaelic family. They are cousins to O'Brien and Mahon. >> In O'Hart's Irish Pedigrees you will find Scanlan as number 98 Turlogh on >> the O'Brien of Thomond pedigree (No. 1). Turlogh's son Ailgeanan who was >> the ancestor of O'Meara, Scanlan and MacArthur. >> >> Mahon is on the same pedigree and they descend from Mahon, son of >> Murtogh, >> son of Turlogh Mor O'Brien (d. 1086)(No 107) on the O'Brien pedigree. >> >>SNIP>> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Alanna Scanlon" <alannal@prodigy.net> >> To: "IRL-CLARE" <IRL-CLARE-L@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Monday, September 11, 2006 2:34 PM >> Subject: Re: [IRL-CLARE] The Arms of Irish Septs- An Explanation (Part 1) >> >> >>> Dear Sir, >>> >>> I see my surname listed -- Scanlan. How would one know who is The >>> Chief? Where would one find information about how this name became an >>> Irish Sept? >>> >>> I also see the name Cotter, and O' Connor in the list. These are also >>> my names. My Tadgh Scanlan married a Mahon who was suppose to be >>> connected to Brian Boru. >>> >>> My Tadgh who lived in say the late 1700's or early 1800's may have >>> escaped from Limerick to Co Clare. >>> >>> Many years ago, I post my lineage on a web site and someone became >>> angry >>> that I had said I descended from a Cotter. They said that the name did >>> not exist. I just ignored the person. >>> >>> Thank you. >>> >>> Alanna >>> >>> padraigogealagain <padraigogealagain@rogers.com> wrote: >>> The arms to which MacLysaght refers and which fall in the category of >>> sept arms include, but are not limited to the following ...O' Connor, >>> Cotter, Scanlan, etc. >>> > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > IRL-CLARE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRL-CLARE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Anyone needing their mails changed to MIME FORMAT please send me a OFF LIST mail and place in the subject line MIME FORMAT ATTENTION CARA and then be patient I am attending to mails every second or third day BUT the problems are getting less as I learn to navigate this new format CARA -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ .

Liz, Thank you for the note. I hope to continue finding folks from the other branches, like the Keanes who lived in Monmore. There seems to be a wealth of Keanes in Clare. I would love finding more cousins. Both of these families are from my mother's side. Then I need to find the Morgan McSweeney/ Anna Flynn side. I guess I am a bit greedy, but I love my family and this seems to make me fall further in love with them all. It's all good! God bless, Ned! ----- Original Message ----- From: "Liz Haren" <lizharen@gmail.com> To: <irl-clare@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, September 11, 2006 7:26 AM Subject: Re: [IRL-CLARE] God bless the internet and my County Clare family > Awww that is so great, Ned! There's not another feeling like this in > the world. > I'm really happy for you. > > > On 9/10/06, Ned <nedf@optonline.net> wrote: >> Cheers everyone, >> I found my Kitsons in the 1901 Census in Lisgurreen where Stephen Purtil >> had listed in the Griffith's Valuation. My grandfather, Michael Kitson, >> had 10 brothers and sisters, including Bridget, who married John O'Meara. >> One of their daughters, Alice, is still living and married a gentleman >> named Kelly. Their son, John, saw my inquiry on RootsWeb and contacted >> me. We are now in correspondence. As a special surprise, my first cousin >> who lives about 10 miles from me was visiting John a few weeks before and >> now I have pictures of my cousins in Ligreen as well as pictures of the >> Kitson house and a couple of tombstones. I am very happy. I found the >> Ellis Island information for a few of the Kitson brothers and sisters >> (Patrick, James, Michael and Annie and maybe Mary) who immigrated to NY. >> John told me one sister, Annie, returned. Another brother, Joseph, >> married a Lynch lady in the area and lived in the Kitson house. >> I want to pin down all the names and then go backward to trace Stephen >> Dee, Bridget Purtil, Anne Kitson, the Kitson ancestors and the ancestors >> of Michael and Mary Keane of Moanmore North (today's Monmore). >> I'm also trying to find the Morgan McSweeney/Ann Flynn branch. I'm not >> sure of where they lived, but two of their children, my grandfather >> Maurice Francis Sweeney (I think the Mc was dropped at Ellis Island >> somehow), and sisters Nellie, Norah and Mrs. Richard McCarthy all settled >> in Waterbury CT. Maurice left from Castleisland and Nellie listed >> Abbeyfeale as her last residence. I know that's in Kerry. >> But finding the relatives I have found through my newly acquainted family >> is truly the pot of gold at rainbow's end. Thanks for the continued help >> and prayers. God Bless you all and my family in Clare. >> Ned Sweeney >> Central Islip NY >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> IRL-CLARE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > IRL-CLARE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

> The only way to know is to trace the lineage back. So far I am back to Co > Limerick (1824). No town or parish nor parents names. Well, Mike, that is a 'BRICK WALL' I hope you can demolish it. I, fortunately, have documentation to direct Galligan ancestors of Cahercorney, Co.Limerick - but then my ancestors, thankfully, were not of the 'Diaspora". In fact I was born there. I think I'll declare myself the 'The' of the sub-sept of Co. Limerick :-) ! Ha, ha! Well said, Mike, about particularly O'Hart, but a lot of mis-informed knowledge - or wishful thinking - is (and not can be) very conflicting; it tends to 'muddy the waters" The stuff you gave Alanna on pre-16/17th centuries of the O'Hart genealogies has long being declared by learned and well educated genealogists, in the Irish expression as 'Rawmeash' ( pure rubbish) "! Why even Mac Lysaght said ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike O'Brien" <mike@obrienclan.com> To: <irl-clare@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, September 11, 2006 7:18 PM Subject: Re: [IRL-CLARE] The Arms of Irish Septs- An Explanation (Part 1) > One more point, Padraig: > 1. No serious genealogist of this age puts any credence in any one works. > I > use O'Hart, O'Laughlin, MacLysaght, Keating, Bell and the Four Masters. > SNIP> > > Mike > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "padraigogealagain" <padraigogealagain@rogers.com> > To: <irl-clare@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Monday, September 11, 2006 3:47 PM > Subject: Re: [IRL-CLARE] The Arms of Irish Septs- An Explanation (Part 1) > > >> Two points, Mike,: >> 1). No serious genealogist of this age puts any credence on the works of >> O'Hart genealogies prior to the 16/17th. centuries. >> >> 2). Mac Lysaght [Surnames of Ireland] in writing about the O' Scanlans, >> as >> opposed to the Mac Scanlans who have the same Gaelic etymological root >> wrote: >> >> "(O) Scanlan - O Scanlain ( for derivation see Scannell). There were >> several Septs of this name (see map), the most important being of West" >> Munster [This writer's footnote: Not the ancestral territory of >> O'Brien/McNamara/McMahon in east Clare]. "There are no less that eight >> place-names embodying the surname in different parts of Ireland. The >> numerous Scanlans of Co. Clare mostly belong to the Connacht sept. >> Further >> north Scanlans are really as a rule Scannells. Bibl. IF Map Cork, >> Fermanagh >> and Galway" >> >> " (O) Scannell - O Scannail ( The early meaning of the word scannal is >> contention, not scandal). Properly a sept of north-west Ireland, it has >> become Scanlan in Co.Sligo, where Scanlans are really as a rule >> Scannells. >> IF Map Sligo." >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Mike O'Brien" <mike@obrienclan.com> >> To: <irl-clare@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Monday, September 11, 2006 6:12 PM >> Subject: Re: [IRL-CLARE] The Arms of Irish Septs- An Explanation (Part 1) >> >> >>> Alanna, >>> I didn't send the list but will give you some answers. >>> There is no designated Chief of Clan Scanlan at this time. If and when >>> the Clan organizes and has at least ten members, they could elect a >>> Chief >>> for their clan. Their title would be 'Hon' Chief of Clan Scanlan. I >>> would suggest they contact The Clans of Ireland, Ltd to get registered >>> also which will help build their membership. Information to help you >>> get >>> started is located here (http://www.araltas.com/features/scanlan/). >>> >>> Scanlan is an old gaelic family. They are cousins to O'Brien and Mahon. >>> In O'Hart's Irish Pedigrees you will find Scanlan as number 98 Turlogh >>> on >>> the O'Brien of Thomond pedigree (No. 1). Turlogh's son Ailgeanan who was >>> the ancestor of O'Meara, Scanlan and MacArthur. >>> >>> Mahon is on the same pedigree and they descend from Mahon, son of >>> Murtogh, >>> son of Turlogh Mor O'Brien (d. 1086)(No 107) on the O'Brien pedigree. >>> >>>SNIP>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Alanna Scanlon" <alannal@prodigy.net> >>> To: "IRL-CLARE" <IRL-CLARE-L@rootsweb.com> >>> Sent: Monday, September 11, 2006 2:34 PM >>> Subject: Re: [IRL-CLARE] The Arms of Irish Septs- An Explanation (Part >>> 1) >>> >>> >>>> Dear Sir, >>>> >>>> I see my surname listed -- Scanlan. How would one know who is The >>>> Chief? Where would one find information about how this name became an >>>> Irish Sept? >>>> >>>> I also see the name Cotter, and O' Connor in the list. These are also >>>> my names. My Tadgh Scanlan married a Mahon who was suppose to be >>>> connected to Brian Boru. >>>> >>>> My Tadgh who lived in say the late 1700's or early 1800's may have >>>> escaped from Limerick to Co Clare. >>>> >>>> Many years ago, I post my lineage on a web site and someone became >>>> angry >>>> that I had said I descended from a Cotter. They said that the name did >>>> not exist. I just ignored the person. >>>> >>>> Thank you. >>>> >>>> Alanna >>>> >>>> padraigogealagain <padraigogealagain@rogers.com> wrote: >>>> The arms to which MacLysaght refers and which fall in the category >>>> of >>>> sept arms include, but are not limited to the following ...O' Connor, >>>> Cotter, Scanlan, etc. >>>> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> IRL-CLARE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > IRL-CLARE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Two points, Mike,: 1). No serious genealogist of this age puts any credence on the works of O'Hart genealogies prior to the 16/17th. centuries. 2). Mac Lysaght [Surnames of Ireland] in writing about the O' Scanlans, as opposed to the Mac Scanlans who have the same Gaelic etymological root wrote: "(O) Scanlan - O Scanlain ( for derivation see Scannell). There were several Septs of this name (see map), the most important being of West" Munster [This writer's footnote: Not the ancestral territory of O'Brien/McNamara/McMahon in east Clare]. "There are no less that eight place-names embodying the surname in different parts of Ireland. The numerous Scanlans of Co. Clare mostly belong to the Connacht sept. Further north Scanlans are really as a rule Scannells. Bibl. IF Map Cork, Fermanagh and Galway" " (O) Scannell - O Scannail ( The early meaning of the word scannal is contention, not scandal). Properly a sept of north-west Ireland, it has become Scanlan in Co.Sligo, where Scanlans are really as a rule Scannells. IF Map Sligo." ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike O'Brien" <mike@obrienclan.com> To: <irl-clare@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, September 11, 2006 6:12 PM Subject: Re: [IRL-CLARE] The Arms of Irish Septs- An Explanation (Part 1) > Alanna, > I didn't send the list but will give you some answers. > There is no designated Chief of Clan Scanlan at this time. If and when > the Clan organizes and has at least ten members, they could elect a Chief > for their clan. Their title would be 'Hon' Chief of Clan Scanlan. I > would suggest they contact The Clans of Ireland, Ltd to get registered > also which will help build their membership. Information to help you get > started is located here (http://www.araltas.com/features/scanlan/). > > Scanlan is an old gaelic family. They are cousins to O'Brien and Mahon. > In O'Hart's Irish Pedigrees you will find Scanlan as number 98 Turlogh on > the O'Brien of Thomond pedigree (No. 1). Turlogh's son Ailgeanan who was > the ancestor of O'Meara, Scanlan and MacArthur. > > Mahon is on the same pedigree and they descend from Mahon, son of Murtogh, > son of Turlogh Mor O'Brien (d. 1086)(No 107) on the O'Brien pedigree. > >SNIP>> > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Alanna Scanlon" <alannal@prodigy.net> > To: "IRL-CLARE" <IRL-CLARE-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Monday, September 11, 2006 2:34 PM > Subject: Re: [IRL-CLARE] The Arms of Irish Septs- An Explanation (Part 1) > > >> Dear Sir, >> >> I see my surname listed -- Scanlan. How would one know who is The >> Chief? Where would one find information about how this name became an >> Irish Sept? >> >> I also see the name Cotter, and O' Connor in the list. These are also >> my names. My Tadgh Scanlan married a Mahon who was suppose to be >> connected to Brian Boru. >> >> My Tadgh who lived in say the late 1700's or early 1800's may have >> escaped from Limerick to Co Clare. >> >> Many years ago, I post my lineage on a web site and someone became angry >> that I had said I descended from a Cotter. They said that the name did >> not exist. I just ignored the person. >> >> Thank you. >> >> Alanna >> >> padraigogealagain <padraigogealagain@rogers.com> wrote: >> The arms to which MacLysaght refers and which fall in the category of >> sept arms include, but are not limited to the following ...O' Connor, >> Cotter, Scanlan, etc. >>

One more point, Padraig: 1. No serious genealogist of this age puts any credence in any one works. I use O'Hart, O'Laughlin, MacLysaght, Keating, Bell and the Four Masters. According to O'Laughlin (The Book of Irish Families Great & Small): O'Scanlan Scannlain, O'Scannell, Scanlan, Scanlane, Skanlane Families of the name of Scanlon can find their family commemorated in place names such as Ballyscanlon, Ballymacscanlon, Scanlansland and Scanlans Island in Ireland. Those of the name may find origins from one of several different family lines. Some descend from Mac Scannlain of Louth, others from O'Scannlain of the province of Munster, and others still from O'Scannell of the north of Ireland in counties Sligo and Donegal. These names have been interchanged from time to time, so origins maybe difficult to determine without some specific research. Keatings History gives the family of O'Scanlon in Co. Kerry, and again separately in Co. Limerick in the barony of Pubblebrien, along with the MacArthur family. In the older territory of Oriel we find "MacScannlain" centered at Ballymacscanlan, in the barony of Lower Dundalk barony in Co. Louth. In more modern times the family had faded from view there. Counties, Kerry, Clare and Sligo were all principal locations for the name of Scanlon in the 17th century. Scannell was a principal name of Cork and Kerry at that time, as it was later in the 1890 birth index. That index shows 54 births of Scanlon and 42 births of Scanlan, concentrated in Kerry, Clare, Sligo, Limerick and Cork. You will notice here that this also coincides the fact that both Scanlan and MacArthur lived in the same area in Co limerick as O'Hart had indicated. I agree that there will always be several branches from different areas of most families. O'Hart shows O'Brien with 12 pedigrees. Ten pedigrees in Munster and two pedigrees in Ulster. The two in Ulster are not of the same line as the other 10. The only way to know is to trace the lineage back. So far I am back to Co Limerick (1824). No town or parish nor parents names. Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "padraigogealagain" <padraigogealagain@rogers.com> To: <irl-clare@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, September 11, 2006 3:47 PM Subject: Re: [IRL-CLARE] The Arms of Irish Septs- An Explanation (Part 1) > Two points, Mike,: > 1). No serious genealogist of this age puts any credence on the works of > O'Hart genealogies prior to the 16/17th. centuries. > > 2). Mac Lysaght [Surnames of Ireland] in writing about the O' Scanlans, as > opposed to the Mac Scanlans who have the same Gaelic etymological root > wrote: > > "(O) Scanlan - O Scanlain ( for derivation see Scannell). There were > several Septs of this name (see map), the most important being of West" > Munster [This writer's footnote: Not the ancestral territory of > O'Brien/McNamara/McMahon in east Clare]. "There are no less that eight > place-names embodying the surname in different parts of Ireland. The > numerous Scanlans of Co. Clare mostly belong to the Connacht sept. Further > north Scanlans are really as a rule Scannells. Bibl. IF Map Cork, > Fermanagh > and Galway" > > " (O) Scannell - O Scannail ( The early meaning of the word scannal is > contention, not scandal). Properly a sept of north-west Ireland, it has > become Scanlan in Co.Sligo, where Scanlans are really as a rule Scannells. > IF Map Sligo." > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike O'Brien" <mike@obrienclan.com> > To: <irl-clare@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Monday, September 11, 2006 6:12 PM > Subject: Re: [IRL-CLARE] The Arms of Irish Septs- An Explanation (Part 1) > > >> Alanna, >> I didn't send the list but will give you some answers. >> There is no designated Chief of Clan Scanlan at this time. If and when >> the Clan organizes and has at least ten members, they could elect a Chief >> for their clan. Their title would be 'Hon' Chief of Clan Scanlan. I >> would suggest they contact The Clans of Ireland, Ltd to get registered >> also which will help build their membership. Information to help you get >> started is located here (http://www.araltas.com/features/scanlan/). >> >> Scanlan is an old gaelic family. They are cousins to O'Brien and Mahon. >> In O'Hart's Irish Pedigrees you will find Scanlan as number 98 Turlogh on >> the O'Brien of Thomond pedigree (No. 1). Turlogh's son Ailgeanan who was >> the ancestor of O'Meara, Scanlan and MacArthur. >> >> Mahon is on the same pedigree and they descend from Mahon, son of >> Murtogh, >> son of Turlogh Mor O'Brien (d. 1086)(No 107) on the O'Brien pedigree. >> >>SNIP>> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Alanna Scanlon" <alannal@prodigy.net> >> To: "IRL-CLARE" <IRL-CLARE-L@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Monday, September 11, 2006 2:34 PM >> Subject: Re: [IRL-CLARE] The Arms of Irish Septs- An Explanation (Part 1) >> >> >>> Dear Sir, >>> >>> I see my surname listed -- Scanlan. How would one know who is The >>> Chief? Where would one find information about how this name became an >>> Irish Sept? >>> >>> I also see the name Cotter, and O' Connor in the list. These are also >>> my names. My Tadgh Scanlan married a Mahon who was suppose to be >>> connected to Brian Boru. >>> >>> My Tadgh who lived in say the late 1700's or early 1800's may have >>> escaped from Limerick to Co Clare. >>> >>> Many years ago, I post my lineage on a web site and someone became >>> angry >>> that I had said I descended from a Cotter. They said that the name did >>> not exist. I just ignored the person. >>> >>> Thank you. >>> >>> Alanna >>> >>> padraigogealagain <padraigogealagain@rogers.com> wrote: >>> The arms to which MacLysaght refers and which fall in the category of >>> sept arms include, but are not limited to the following ...O' Connor, >>> Cotter, Scanlan, etc. >>> > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > IRL-CLARE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >

Hi - I notice you're researching Boland - my 2xGtGrandmother was Catherine Boland, b. circa 1823 - her father was David, her mother Mary Ryan. Catherine arrived in Quebec in 1849 - she married Daniel Farrell in 1850 - family lore says they met on the ship - Patrick Ryan signed for her at the wedding; one of the Godparents for one daughter was David Boland and his wife Helene. Anything sound familiar? Carolyn Toronto P.S. My father's great friend growing up was Joe Guinane - Joe's and his siblings are dead but there are still Guinanes in the area. -----Original Message----- From: irl-clare-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:irl-clare-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Nancy Peregrine Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2006 10:42 AM To: irl-clare@rootsweb.com Subject: [IRL-CLARE] 1866 Births Record Hello Toni - I am aklso researching Guinane (originally from Co Limerick, some moved to Co Cork, and possibly Co Clare). Also the surname Rainsford for Co Limerick & Co Tipperary. I would greatly appreciate knowing what your info shows for births of these names in the noted counties! Thank you, Nancy Peregrine I currently have the Index of births from Ireland for the year l866. If anyone would like me to check out a name I would be glad to do it. I enjoy this list and have received a lot of good advice and would like to reciprocate. I only have this microfilm for another week so please just one or two names. Toni Southern Tier NYS Researching: GUINANE, HOURIHAN, CURRY, BOLAND, WALSH, MULHOLLAND, OMALLEY ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRL-CLARE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRL-CLARE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRL-CLARE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message =========================================================== This e-mail is intended only for the named recipient(s) and may contain information that is privileged, confidential and/or exempt from disclosure under applicable law. No waiver of privilege, confidence or otherwise is intended by virtue of communication via the internet. Any unauthorized use, dissemination or copying is strictly prohibited. If you have received this e-mail in error, or are not named as a recipient, please immediately notify the sender and destroy all copies of this e-mail. Please be aware that internet communications are subject to the risk of data corruption and other transmission errors. For information of extraordinary sensitivity, we recommend that our clients use encryption software when they communicate with us by e-mail. By submitting your or another individual's personal information to McCarthy Tétrault LLP or its affiliates, service providers and agents, you agree, and confirm your authority from such other individual, to our collection, use and disclosure of such personal information in accordance with our privacy policy available at www.mccarthy.ca . McCarthy Tétrault contact information may be found at www.mccarthy.ca/en/contactus .

Alanna, I didn't send the list but will give you some answers. There is no designated Chief of Clan Scanlan at this time. If and when the Clan organizes and has at least ten members, they could elect a Chief for their clan. Their title would be 'Hon' Chief of Clan Scanlan. I would suggest they contact The Clans of Ireland, Ltd to get registered also which will help build their membership. Information to help you get started is located here (http://www.araltas.com/features/scanlan/). Scanlan is an old gaelic family. They are cousins to O'Brien and Mahon. In O'Hart's Irish Pedigrees you will find Scanlan as number 98 Turlogh on the O'Brien of Thomond pedigree (No. 1). Turlogh's son Ailgeanan who was the ancestor of O'Meara, Scanlan and MacArthur. Mahon is on the same pedigree and they descend from Mahon, son of Murtogh, son of Turlogh Mor O'Brien (d. 1086)(No 107) on the O'Brien pedigree. (Mac) Cotter Mac Coitir formerly MacOitir. This is an old Gaelic-Irish family though their name is formed from a Norse personal name. Ballymacotter locates their homeland. (Co. Cork). (from Irish Surnames by MacLysaght). Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alanna Scanlon" <alannal@prodigy.net> To: "IRL-CLARE" <IRL-CLARE-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, September 11, 2006 2:34 PM Subject: Re: [IRL-CLARE] The Arms of Irish Septs- An Explanation (Part 1) > Dear Sir, > > I see my surname listed -- Scanlan. How would one know who is The Chief? Where would one find information about how this name became an Irish Sept? > > I also see the name Cotter, and O' Connor in the list. These are also my names. My Tadgh Scanlan married a Mahon who was suppose to be connected to Brian Boru. > > My Tadgh who lived in say the late 1700's or early 1800's may have escaped from Limerick to Co Clare. > > Many years ago, I post my lineage on a web site and someone became angry that I had said I descended from a Cotter. They said that the name did not exist. I just ignored the person. > > Thank you. > > Alanna > > padraigogealagain <padraigogealagain@rogers.com> wrote: > The arms to which MacLysaght refers and which fall in the category of sept arms include, but are not limited to the following ...O' Connor, Cotter, Scanlan, etc. > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRL-CLARE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >

Hang in there I may well be on holidays but due to ill health a sad loss in the family at home, I have been only getting to an IT center every few days then it takes me another hour to wade through all this torment that Rootsweb has caused so in this case PATIENCE will receive its own rewards whilst not finding this change of ROOTSWEB easy to follow I am at least trying to sort the mess from the mail. So yet again I am left floundering in the middle of all this change but remember this if all else fails and you need to contact me urgently a mail to cara_links@yahoo.com marked urgent attention will find me struggling to learn the ins and outs of this latest puzzle please have patience I am still learning myself what it is all about as are many other list administrators. take care CAra and read Dons mails they appear to hold good advice so far I cannot see anywhere where you can add attachmenst YET!!!!!!! Original Message: ----------------- From: Donal O'Kelly ocollaugh@comcast.net Date: Sun, 10 Sep 2006 09:15:19 -0700 To: cotipperary@rootsweb.com, irl-cork@rootsweb.com, irl-clare@rootsweb.com, IRL-Limerick@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [IRL-CLARE] [COTIPPERARY] IRL-CORK Digest,Attachments now being sent with these ? I believe digest posts has always arrived in batches of attachments. There has been talk about the ability for US to attach files to our listmail posts, but I have no direct word from Rootsweb on that. It would be better I think to set back and check out anything that sounds like rumor. Many people on this list understands the part of the system we work with every day, but we don't know what other goodies we will have when the whole process begins to properly work. Meanwhile RW is working 24-7 to put out little brushfires with the new list format, as we all know. As list admins we will take care of each problem one by one until the whole system works together. Thanks all and have a great day. Donal O'Collaugh O'Kelly ----- Original Message ----- From: "padraigogealagain" <padraigogealagain@rogers.com> To: <irl-cork@rootsweb.com>; <irl-clare@rootsweb.com>; <IRL-Limerick@rootsweb.com>; <cotipperary@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2006 7:54 AM Subject: Re: [COTIPPERARY] IRL-CORK Digest,Attachments now being sent with these ? > Yes, I asked the same question of the Admin. person at Co.Clare - but I > didn't get an answer - probably because she's still on holidays in > Ireland. > You'll have to ask Mr. Billingsworth, The List Admin. > The recent changes that Rootsweb introduced , seems to have this about. My > positive thought was - Great! Rootsweb are now allowing attachments to be > sent to Lists - but I don't think so. Although it would be a good idea in > that we could send Scans of genealogical items, such as certificates of > B.D.M's. to the List. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <EAlt117@aol.com> > To: <irl-cork@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2006 9:30 AM > Subject: Re: IRL-CORK Digest, Vol 1, Issue 4 > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRL-CLARE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message -------------------------------------------------------------------- mail2web - Check your email from the web at http://mail2web.com/ .

(For padraigogealagain) The Genealogical Office in Dublin has nothing to do with heraldry, clans or chiefs. They are a genealogical research organization. The Chief Heralds Office (which is an extra duty to the National Librarian in Dublin) handles heraldry and up to 2001, Chiefs of Name. They do not recognize Chiefs of Name at this time after they found one of six (MacCarthy Mor) as a fraud which cast questions on the other five that were confirmed between 1989-95. My chief's uncle was confirmed as Chief of Name in 1945 by Edward MacLysaght. The Chief Heralds Office stand on Chief recognition can be seen here: http://www.nli.ie/pdfs/Chief%20of%20name.pdf 'The' O'Neill currently lives in Portugal and does use this address (The). Remember, 'The' is not a title but only designates a position as senior in their line. The O'Brien's pedigree is about 39 feet long and is currently held in the National Library. It shows all the Chiefs right up to the present. My chief is 34th generation from Brian Boru, High King of Ireland. All O'Briens would love to trace their roots back to this line, but the odds are against us. Because their are so many branches over the last 1000 years, there is no way I, or most others, will ever connect. The Clans of Ireland, Ltd (http://www.theclansofireland.ie/) not to be confused with Clans of Ireland (http://www.clansofireland.org/ , http://www.irishclans.com/) does not recognize chiefs. They only verify Irish Clans and help them organize themselves. They do not recognize Irish societies such as Clan Cian or other pre-surname population groups. They are chartered with the Irish Government for this purpose. At present there are five chiefs in question as a result of the MacCarthy Mor affair. Once the Genealogy & Heraldry Bill 2006 is passed, these five will have to resubmit their paperwork for recognition. This time it will be more extensive, not like the cursory check they had the first time. I presume some of them won't make the cut. As far as Clan Doyle's website, let me clarify some things. Here is what you read: 'Since the establishment of the Clans of Ireland Office there are now about 150 Clans registered and a number of these Clans mistakenly use incorrect pre-nominals (which are in actuality ancient titles) when appointing their Clan Chieftains. The list that appears below is acknowledged by the Irish Government, through the Office of the Chief Herald, as being the genealogically pre-eminent representatives of the ancient Gaelic families and their titles. Only these Irish aristocrats may use the ancient Gaelic form of address of 'The', which is equivalent to the European Princely title of 'His Serene Highness'.' The Clans of Ireland Office they refer to is The Clans of Ireland. Ltd. There is no office. There are over 130 clans registered. As far as appointing clan chieftains are concerned, The Clans of Ireland, Ltd has no authority in that area. That is strictly up to each individual clan. However, the proper addresses are: 1. 'The' - Chief of Name as verified by the Chief Heralds Office. 2. 'Hon' - Elected Chief but not Chief of Name. Does not have to be verified by the Chief Heralds Office. The list of Irish Chiefs that appears below 'ARE NOT' recognized by the Irish Government. The list of Irish Chiefs of Name is correct except for those who have died or those in question. There are currently 16 Chiefs on the Standing Council of Irish Chiefs and Chieftains. There is NO government agency that recognizes Irish Chiefs. As stated earlier, the Chief Heralds Office is an extra duty position for the librarian at the National Library in Dublin. The National Library is funded through an agency in the Irish Government but has no authority from the Irish Government. The other problem with Chief lines is that many Chiefs were elected and not inherited. Under Brehon law, the Chief was elected. It was not a hereditary position unless the ruling family had the power to do so. Those who try to claim the chief position under Brehon law are out of luck as there are no records to support any of those elections. With the passing of the bill in the senate, all of this will become a government function and we will get definite guidelines then. Mike ---- Original Message ----- From: "padraigogealagain" <padraigogealagain@rogers.com> To: <irl-limerick@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, September 11, 2006 11:45 AM Subject: Re: [IRL-LIMERICK] The Arms of Irish Septs- An Explanation (Pt.2-final) > All you say, Mike, is probably true BUT I have the original letter that I > received in reply to my queries, and the answer they gave is absolute in > that there is NO authority ( the key word ) in Genealogy or Heraldry for > the > use of 'THE" as a descendant of a Clan chief - the letter doesn't say that > the title is even recognised by the Chief Herald. > > Interesting though, how anyone can support direct line to a chief of Sept > since the Celtic order began the beginning of its end after the 1601 > battle > of Kinsale that consequently led to the flight of many of the Earls ( a > conferred English title, as you likely know). The great chief O'Neill > later > denounced it as did many other. Those who acquiesced to it were only ' > feathering their own nests' and to heck with the other members of the > tribal > sept who had common rights under Brehon law to Sept territory. Its > remarkable how they managed to have proof of descent considering the > majority on these Lists are up against 'Brick Walls' trying to root to an > ancestor in the 1850's, for example - let alone one who lived in the mid > 17th. century. > > It has to be recognised that many of the Sept scribes doctored the > genealogy > of the chiefs at their banquet oral recitals. > > Many of the so-called Head of Clans debunked based on false genealogies. I > wonder if you are referring to the title granted by The Clans of Ireland > Office? > > See: http://www.doyle.com.au/chiefs.html for general information. There > are > many more, but I am trying to find one that helped debunk some contenders > to > Ancestral chiefs' titles. > > Finally, you state that Burke's General Armory 1884 is an English > publication - Of course, it is, the Irish chiefs didn't have Arms. But are > you referring to Kennedy's Book of Arms (1816) ? >

----- Original Message ----- From: "padraigogealagain" <padraigogealagain@rogers.com> To: <irl-limerick@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, September 11, 2006 2:45 PM Subject: Re: [IRL-LIMERICK] The Arms of Irish Septs- An Explanation ( Pt.2-final) All you say, Mike, is probably true BUT I have the original letter that I received in reply to my queries, and the answer they gave is absolute in that there is NO authority ( the key word ) in Genealogy or Heraldry for the use of 'THE" as a descendant of a Clan chief - the letter doesn't say that the title is even recognised by the Chief Herald. Interesting though, how anyone can support direct line to a chief of Sept since the Celtic order began the beginning of its end after the 1601 battle of Kinsale that consequently led to the flight of many of the Earls ( a conferred English title, as you likely know). The great chief O'Neill later denounced it as did many other. Those who acquiesced to it were only ' feathering their own nests' and to heck with the other members of the tribal sept who had common rights under Brehon law to Sept territory. Its remarkable how they managed to have proof of descent considering the majority on these Lists are up against 'Brick Walls' trying to root to an ancestor in the 1850's, for example - let alone one who lived in the mid 17th. century. It has to be recognised that many of the Sept scribes doctored the genealogy of the chiefs at their banquet oral recitals. Many of the so-called Head of Clans debunked based on false genealogies. I wonder if you are referring to the title granted by The Clans of Ireland Office? See: http://www.doyle.com.au/chiefs.html for general information. There are many more, but I am trying to find one that helped debunk some contenders to Ancestral chiefs' titles. Finally, you state that Burke's General Armory 1884 is an English publication - Of course, it is, the Irish chiefs didn't have Arms. But are you referring to Kennedy's Book of Arms (1816) ? . .----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike O'Brien" <mike@obrienclan.com> > To: <irl-limerick@rootsweb.com>; <irl-clare@rootsweb.com>; > <Irl-cork@rootsweb.com>; <cotipperary@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Monday, September 11, 2006 12:09 PM > Subject: Re: [IRL-LIMERICK] The Arms of Irish Septs- An Explanation ( > Pt.2-final) > > > Just a short note for all. > 1. The term 'THE' before a name is the courtesy recognition of the senior > male bloodline descendent of the last de facto Chief of that family. The > term 'THE' is NOT a title, it is only a position recognized by the Chief > Herald's Office of Ireland and has no authority. My Chief, The O'Brien > has > inherited the position from his uncle and takes the responsibility of that > position very seriously. > 2. Burke's General Armory is a British arms record. The Irish Book of > Arms > is a separate publication. > 3. There is currently a Bill before the Irish Senate (Genealogy & > Heraldry > Bill, 2006) that will make the Chief Heralds Office an official government > office staffed by a civil servant with government authority over heraldry > in > Ireland. You can read the bill here: > (http://www.oireachtas.ie/viewdoc.asp?fn=/documents/bills28/bills/2006/2306/b2306s.pdf). > I have read the complete bill and can't wait for their approval. > > Mike > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "padraigogealagain" <padraigogealagain@rogers.com> > To: <irl-clare@rootsweb.com>; <irl-limerick@rootsweb.com>; > <Irl-cork@rootsweb.com>; <cotipperary@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2006 9:56 PM > Subject: [IRL-LIMERICK] The Arms of Irish Septs- An Explanation ( > Pt.2 -final) > > >> In my previous posting I gave excerpts froman URL about this,oft-times >> controversial subject regarding copyrighted works. >> >> Now I am transcribing the body of a reply that I received 12 February, >> 1997 from Genealogical Office, Dublin: >> >> Dear Padraig O'Gealagain, >> >> "Your request for information on the arms appropriate to Galligan and >> O'Quinn has been referred to me for attention. >> >> According to Burke "The General Armory", 1884, no arms are recorderd for >> either Galligan, Gilligan or McGilligan. I enclose extracts dealing with >> Quinn and O'Quinn and also accounts from Woulfe, Sloinnte Gaedheal is >> Gall >> (Irish names and surnames) and find the Galligan is a distinct name from >> Gilligan or Quinn and no arms have been found on record as being >> appropriateto Galligan. It would be possible to apply for a grant of arms >> to the Chief Herald. >> >> There is no authority for the use of "The" in Irish genealogy or >> Heraldry. >> The leaders in the Clan [sic] were known by their surname, O'Neill, >> O'Donnell. and MacCarthy, etc. >> >> In answer to your final query no person is entitled officially to bear >> arms except under the terms of a grant from the former Ulster Office or >> from the Chief Herald. >> >> Yours sincerely >> >> Eilish Ellis (Mrs) " >> >> **************************************** >> >> The reason for my enquiry to the Genealogical office was two-fold: 1). To >> check tjhe authenticity of a Coat of Arms blazon on a delicate pottery >> plate which my wife brought back to me as a gift, from an Irish visit, >> 2). to check the reference in O'Hart's genealogies where Giolagain was >> shown as number (I forget) in the line of Ir and from whom decended >> Gillgan, and #3) to check on the validness of certain persons claiming to >> be Heads of Serfs using the title "The O'Neill" etc., etc. >> >> So, the above letter transcription answered those questions. But the >> key-words in the Coats of Arms reference are "entitled officially". I >> take that to mean you can buy a Family Crest, hang it in your Rec-room or >> where ever, but using it in an official capacity, such as on your >> business >> or personal mail could invite a lawsuit from the official owner. >> >> >> ***** Reply to the LIST ONLY - Please! ***** >> ***** And, thanks for such consideration ***** >> >> Pádraig Mór, >> An Sean Gabhar >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> IRL-LIMERICK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > IRL-LIMERICK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Dear Sir, I see my surname listed -- Scanlan. How would one know who is The Chief? Where would one find information about how this name became an Irish Sept? I also see the name Cotter, and O' Connor in the list. These are also my names. My Tadgh Scanlan married a Mahon who was suppose to be connected to Brian Boru. My Tadgh who lived in say the late 1700's or early 1800's may have escaped from Limerick to Co Clare. Many years ago, I post my lineage on a web site and someone became angry that I had said I descended from a Cotter. They said that the name did not exist. I just ignored the person. Thank you. Alanna padraigogealagain <padraigogealagain@rogers.com> wrote: The arms to which MacLysaght refers and which fall in the category of sept arms include, but are not limited to the following ...O' Connor, Cotter, Scanlan, etc.

NO wonder i can't find my O'Gormans they must be myth inclind..too.. Perhaps that's why there isn't a Richard among the Aussie OG's ---- Original Message ----- From: "padraigogealagain" <padraigogealagain@rogers.com> To: <irl-clare@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, September 11, 2006 11:23 AM Subject: Re: [IRL-CLARE] Young Irelanders : Re: [Y-IRL] Non Gen...TheNineConvicts > Krikey! we seem to be back on the myth that O'Gorman was a Governor of > Newfoundland. How did that resurrection make its way to IRL-CLARE? > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <jpmcnamara@sbcglobal.net> > To: "jeanine" <joyzee_goil@yahoo.com>; <y-irl@yahoogroups.com>; "MK > Douglas" > <rkdoug2000@yahoo.com>; "Dr. Jane Lyons" <sniliaghin@iol.ie>; > <irl-clare@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2006 7:44 PM > Subject: Re: [IRL-CLARE] Young Irelanders : Re: [Y-IRL] Non Gen...The > NineConvicts > > >> Hi Jane, >> >> Am getting confused here, which lot were hanged? Not the 'nine convicts' >> the 'young Irelanders' ? Or is it just the lot on your site at the >> referenced URL? >> >> I do have an obscure reference, to which some misinformation may have >> been >> my fault, as this reference is just the author's writings based on his >> research. On the IRL-Clare list, someone said they wished they knew who >> was responsible for this one bit of mis-information on the Internet... >> >> ... and were referring to Richard O'Gorman becoming called a Governor of >> Newfoundland, and then in the next breath vehemently expressing that >> Richard O'Gorman has never went to Newfoundland. And I do see what seem >> to be some of my letters reposted as from another person, and I should >> emphasize the 'seem to be' part, as if one has the same book, then the >> reference might very well have been just quoted again. >> >> Anyway, this little book I refer to, is an old book published in 1979. >> It >> seems I caused some great guffaws when I quoted from this book Judge >> William Hughes Mulligan's St Patrick's Day tongue-in-cheek speech about >> how Christopher Columbus was really an Irishman named Lynch. It was the >> opening to his chapter entitled "The Runaround in Rome" and was a bit of >> payback to what the author considered his poor treatment at the hands of >> the Vatican archivists. One way to get even so to speak poorly of >> Italians, a payback for one repository preventing his access to research >> materials that would confirm that many priests went to Italy from Ireland >> after Cromwell's arrival. >> [also note: someone was so impressed with this letter of mine, that >> without asking they made it into a website. The website was just a >> reprint of my letter to Ireland-L@rootsweb.com. This site has finally >> been taken down.] >> >> Anyway, this book also has the story of how the Queen was advised that >> Sir >> Charles Duffy who was elected prime minister of the province of Victoria >> was among the men accused of taking part in an armed uprising, the very >> group she pardoned. (I am paraphrasing here so hope I am not changing >> the >> story.) At this bit of information she allegedly asked to investigate >> what became of the other eight people. At this point the book does a run >> down on how successful these people were, at how short sighted the >> English >> were to let such great people go. One of the people is the one I am sure >> I am the one guilty of spreading the mis-information, (if it is untrue), >> but it is what is in this book, I did not make it up, and that is about >> Richard O'Gorman. So far I have ducked this issue with my silence. <VBG> >> Anyway, here is a rundown from this book of the remaining eight: >> < >> 1) Thomas Meagher became governor of Montana, and he was a general during >> the American Civil War, >> 2) Terrance McManus became a general in the United States Army. >> 3) Patrick Donahue became a general in the United States Army. >> 4) Richard O'Gorman became governor of Newfoundland. [This is the one I >> have heard the discord about.] >> 5) Michael Ireland became attorney general of Australia >> 6) Morris Lyene also became attorney general of Australia >> 7) Thomas McGee became a member of Parliament in Canada and minister if >> agriculture >> 8) John Mitchell became a writer and prominent politician in New York, >> fathering a son who became mayor of New York. >> This episode is but a microcosm of the past tragedy of Ireland and the >> gain of the rest of the world during the oppression of Ireland. And what >> of the future? ... >>> >> So will just say what this reference is, its a fun little book about the >> author's research into a potential ancestor. The author's mother said >> they >> were related to the Galloping Hogan. This book is hardly any kind of >> primary source, like I said, just a fun read. >> It is: >> 'The Quest for the Galloping Hogan, A man of Irish parentage seeks the >> truth about a legendary ancestor and finds the Irish soul' by Matthew J. >> Culligan-Hogan, ISBN 0-517-53665-X >> >> This book also has the famous Thomas Meagher court-side speech that is >> often quoted just before the above treatment: >> < >> The spokesman, Thomas Meagher, said, "My Lord, this is our first offense, >> but not our last. If you will be easy with us this once, we promise on >> our word as gentlemen to do better next time. Sure, we won't be fools >> enough to get caught." >>> >> That's all I have to add to this growing controversy. Jeanine seems to >> have started it here. (LOL) >> >> Best regards, >> >> Jim McNamara >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Dr. Jane Lyons >> To: jeanine ; y-irl@yahoogroups.com ; MK Douglas >> Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2006 2:25 PM >> Subject: Young Irelanders : Re: [Y-IRL] Non Gen...The Nine Convicts >> >> >> <SNIPPED> >> >> Being hanged, drrawn and quartered did happen lots and heads re hung on >> poles and things >> >> This lot were hanged........ >> >> I'm sure drawing and quartering was part of the deal >> http://www.from-ireland.net/censussubs/fer/hangings1641.htm >> >> Jane >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "MK Douglas" <rkdoug2000@yahoo.com> >> To: "jeanine" <joyzee_goil@yahoo.com>; <y-irl@yahoogroups.com> >> Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2006 6:02 PM >> Subject: Re: [Y-IRL] Non Gen...The Nine Convicts >> >> Check message # 28688 by Dan Donahue--there are some errors here. >> >> >> >> __._,_.___ >> Messages in this topic (1) Reply (via web post) | Start a new topic >> Messages | Files | Photos | Links | Database | Polls | Members | >> Calendar >> >> Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID required) >> Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest | Switch >> format to Traditional >> Visit Your Group | Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use | Unsubscribe . >> __,_._,___ >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> IRL-CLARE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > IRL-CLARE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Jim mentions the story that "......Christopher Columbus was really an Irishman named Lynch". This reminds me of the heroic story of Benny O'Hare, a Clare man who emigrated to Rome in the first century AD and became a famous chariot racer: In 1880 a novelist called Lew Wallace picked up the story - presumably on a journey through Clare - but rewrote it. The hero of his book, who was modelled on Benny O'Hare, became a Jewish prince called Ben Hur. Hollywood then compounded the hijacking of the legend by making a series of films entitled "Ben Hur" based on the book. Benny O'Hare's birthplace, a sod cabin in a field near Kilrush, was marked with a bronze plaque until the beginning of the 19th century when the cabin was pulled down by the Revenue police. They were looking for an illicit still which had been handed down through the family and which was still being operated by Benny's direct descendants.The bronze plaque was lost. A poignant story. Pádraig (the Paddy that was) -----Original Message----- From: irl-clare-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:irl-clare-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of jpmcnamara@sbcglobal.net Sent: 11 September 2006 01:44 To: jeanine; y-irl@yahoogroups.com; MK Douglas; Dr. Jane Lyons; irl-clare@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [IRL-CLARE] Young Irelanders : Re: [Y-IRL] Non Gen...The NineConvicts Hi Jane, Am getting confused here, which lot were hanged? Not the 'nine convicts' the 'young Irelanders' ? Or is it just the lot on your site at the referenced URL? I do have an obscure reference, to which some misinformation may have been my fault, as this reference is just the author's writings based on his research. On the IRL-Clare list, someone said they wished they knew who was responsible for this one bit of mis-information on the Internet... ... and were referring to Richard O'Gorman becoming called a Governor of Newfoundland, and then in the next breath vehemently expressing that Richard O'Gorman has never went to Newfoundland. And I do see what seem to be some of my letters reposted as from another person, and I should emphasize the 'seem to be' part, as if one has the same book, then the reference might very well have been just quoted again. Anyway, this little book I refer to, is an old book published in 1979. It seems I caused some great guffaws when I quoted from this book Judge William Hughes Mulligan's St Patrick's Day tongue-in-cheek speech about how Christopher Columbus was really an Irishman named Lynch. It was the opening to his chapter entitled "The Runaround in Rome" and was a bit of payback to what the author considered his poor treatment at the hands of the Vatican archivists. One way to get even so to speak poorly of Italians, a payback for one repository preventing his access to research materials that would confirm that many priests went to Italy from Ireland after Cromwell's arrival. [also note: someone was so impressed with this letter of mine, that without asking they made it into a website. The website was just a reprint of my letter to Ireland-L@rootsweb.com. This site has finally been taken down.] Anyway, this book also has the story of how the Queen was advised that Sir Charles Duffy who was elected prime minister of the province of Victoria was among the men accused of taking part in an armed uprising, the very group she pardoned. (I am paraphrasing here so hope I am not changing the story.) At this bit of information she allegedly asked to investigate what became of the other eight people. At this point the book does a run down on how successful these people were, at how short sighted the English were to let such great people go. One of the people is the one I am sure I am the one guilty of spreading the mis-information, (if it is untrue), but it is what is in this book, I did not make it up, and that is about Richard O'Gorman. So far I have ducked this issue with my silence. <VBG> Anyway, here is a rundown from this book of the remaining eight: < 1) Thomas Meagher became governor of Montana, and he was a general during the American Civil War, 2) Terrance McManus became a general in the United States Army. 3) Patrick Donahue became a general in the United States Army. 4) Richard O'Gorman became governor of Newfoundland. [This is the one I have heard the discord about.] 5) Michael Ireland became attorney general of Australia 6) Morris Lyene also became attorney general of Australia 7) Thomas McGee became a member of Parliament in Canada and minister if agriculture 8) John Mitchell became a writer and prominent politician in New York, fathering a son who became mayor of New York. This episode is but a microcosm of the past tragedy of Ireland and the gain of the rest of the world during the oppression of Ireland. And what of the future? ... > So will just say what this reference is, its a fun little book about the author's research into a potential ancestor. The author's mother said they were related to the Galloping Hogan. This book is hardly any kind of primary source, like I said, just a fun read. It is: 'The Quest for the Galloping Hogan, A man of Irish parentage seeks the truth about a legendary ancestor and finds the Irish soul' by Matthew J. Culligan-Hogan, ISBN 0-517-53665-X This book also has the famous Thomas Meagher court-side speech that is often quoted just before the above treatment: < The spokesman, Thomas Meagher, said, "My Lord, this is our first offense, but not our last. If you will be easy with us this once, we promise on our word as gentlemen to do better next time. Sure, we won't be fools enough to get caught." > That's all I have to add to this growing controversy. Jeanine seems to have started it here. (LOL) Best regards, Jim McNamara ----- Original Message ----- From: Dr. Jane Lyons To: jeanine ; y-irl@yahoogroups.com ; MK Douglas Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2006 2:25 PM Subject: Young Irelanders : Re: [Y-IRL] Non Gen...The Nine Convicts <SNIPPED> Being hanged, drrawn and quartered did happen lots and heads re hung on poles and things This lot were hanged........ I'm sure drawing and quartering was part of the deal http://www.from-ireland.net/censussubs/fer/hangings1641.htm Jane ----- Original Message ----- From: "MK Douglas" <rkdoug2000@yahoo.com> To: "jeanine" <joyzee_goil@yahoo.com>; <y-irl@yahoogroups.com> Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2006 6:02 PM Subject: Re: [Y-IRL] Non Gen...The Nine Convicts Check message # 28688 by Dan Donahue--there are some errors here. __._,_.___ Messages in this topic (1) Reply (via web post) | Start a new topic Messages | Files | Photos | Links | Database | Polls | Members | Calendar Change settings via the Web (Yahoo! ID required) Change settings via email: Switch delivery to Daily Digest | Switch format to Traditional Visit Your Group | Yahoo! Groups Terms of Use | Unsubscribe . __,_._,___ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRL-CLARE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Just a short note for all. 1. The term 'THE' before a name is the courtesy recognition of the senior male bloodline descendent of the last de facto Chief of that family. The term 'THE' is NOT a title, it is only a position recognized by the Chief Herald's Office of Ireland and has no authority. My Chief, The O'Brien has inherited the position from his uncle and takes the responsibility of that position very seriously. 2. Burke's General Armory is a British arms record. The Irish Book of Arms is a separate publication. 3. There is currently a Bill before the Irish Senate (Genealogy & Heraldry Bill, 2006) that will make the Chief Heralds Office an official government office staffed by a civil servant with government authority over heraldry in Ireland. You can read the bill here: (http://www.oireachtas.ie/viewdoc.asp?fn=/documents/bills28/bills/2006/2306/b2306s.pdf). I have read the complete bill and can't wait for their approval. Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "padraigogealagain" <padraigogealagain@rogers.com> To: <irl-clare@rootsweb.com>; <irl-limerick@rootsweb.com>; <Irl-cork@rootsweb.com>; <cotipperary@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2006 9:56 PM Subject: [IRL-LIMERICK] The Arms of Irish Septs- An Explanation ( Pt.2 -final) > In my previous posting I gave excerpts froman URL about this,oft-times > controversial subject regarding copyrighted works. > > Now I am transcribing the body of a reply that I received 12 February, > 1997 from Genealogical Office, Dublin: > > Dear Padraig O'Gealagain, > > "Your request for information on the arms appropriate to Galligan and > O'Quinn has been referred to me for attention. > > According to Burke "The General Armory", 1884, no arms are recorderd for > either Galligan, Gilligan or McGilligan. I enclose extracts dealing with > Quinn and O'Quinn and also accounts from Woulfe, Sloinnte Gaedheal is Gall > (Irish names and surnames) and find the Galligan is a distinct name from > Gilligan or Quinn and no arms have been found on record as being > appropriateto Galligan. It would be possible to apply for a grant of arms > to the Chief Herald. > > There is no authority for the use of "The" in Irish genealogy or Heraldry. > The leaders in the Clan [sic] were known by their surname, O'Neill, > O'Donnell. and MacCarthy, etc. > > In answer to your final query no person is entitled officially to bear > arms except under the terms of a grant from the former Ulster Office or > from the Chief Herald. > > Yours sincerely > > Eilish Ellis (Mrs) " > > **************************************** > > The reason for my enquiry to the Genealogical office was two-fold: 1). To > check tjhe authenticity of a Coat of Arms blazon on a delicate pottery > plate which my wife brought back to me as a gift, from an Irish visit, > 2). to check the reference in O'Hart's genealogies where Giolagain was > shown as number (I forget) in the line of Ir and from whom decended > Gillgan, and #3) to check on the validness of certain persons claiming to > be Heads of Serfs using the title "The O'Neill" etc., etc. > > So, the above letter transcription answered those questions. But the > key-words in the Coats of Arms reference are "entitled officially". I > take that to mean you can buy a Family Crest, hang it in your Rec-room or > where ever, but using it in an official capacity, such as on your business > or personal mail could invite a lawsuit from the official owner. > > > ***** Reply to the LIST ONLY - Please! ***** > ***** And, thanks for such consideration ***** > > Pádraig Mór, > An Sean Gabhar > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > IRL-LIMERICK-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >

Awww that is so great, Ned! There's not another feeling like this in the world. I'm really happy for you. On 9/10/06, Ned <nedf@optonline.net> wrote: > Cheers everyone, > I found my Kitsons in the 1901 Census in Lisgurreen where Stephen Purtil had listed in the Griffith's Valuation. My grandfather, Michael Kitson, had 10 brothers and sisters, including Bridget, who married John O'Meara. One of their daughters, Alice, is still living and married a gentleman named Kelly. Their son, John, saw my inquiry on RootsWeb and contacted me. We are now in correspondence. As a special surprise, my first cousin who lives about 10 miles from me was visiting John a few weeks before and now I have pictures of my cousins in Ligreen as well as pictures of the Kitson house and a couple of tombstones. I am very happy. I found the Ellis Island information for a few of the Kitson brothers and sisters (Patrick, James, Michael and Annie and maybe Mary) who immigrated to NY. John told me one sister, Annie, returned. Another brother, Joseph, married a Lynch lady in the area and lived in the Kitson house. > I want to pin down all the names and then go backward to trace Stephen Dee, Bridget Purtil, Anne Kitson, the Kitson ancestors and the ancestors of Michael and Mary Keane of Moanmore North (today's Monmore). > I'm also trying to find the Morgan McSweeney/Ann Flynn branch. I'm not sure of where they lived, but two of their children, my grandfather Maurice Francis Sweeney (I think the Mc was dropped at Ellis Island somehow), and sisters Nellie, Norah and Mrs. Richard McCarthy all settled in Waterbury CT. Maurice left from Castleisland and Nellie listed Abbeyfeale as her last residence. I know that's in Kerry. > But finding the relatives I have found through my newly acquainted family is truly the pot of gold at rainbow's end. Thanks for the continued help and prayers. God Bless you all and my family in Clare. > Ned Sweeney > Central Islip NY > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRL-CLARE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Ned, How nice to hear that of your discoveries and your growing circle of cousins. Keep up the good work. Sharon Carberry Georgia ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ned" <nedf@optonline.net> To: <irl-clare@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2006 11:38 PM Subject: [IRL-CLARE] God bless the internet and my County Clare family > Cheers everyone, > I found my Kitsons in the 1901 Census in Lisgurreen where Stephen Purtil had listed in the Griffith's Valuation. My grandfather, Michael Kitson, had 10 brothers and sisters, including Bridget, who married John O'Meara. One of their daughters, Alice, is still living and married a gentleman named Kelly. Their son, John, saw my inquiry on RootsWeb and contacted me. We are now in correspondence. As a special surprise, my first cousin who lives about 10 miles from me was visiting John a few weeks before and now I have pictures of my cousins in Ligreen as well as pictures of the Kitson house and a couple of tombstones. I am very happy. I found the Ellis Island information for a few of the Kitson brothers and sisters (Patrick, James, Michael and Annie and maybe Mary) who immigrated to NY. John told me one sister, Annie, returned. Another brother, Joseph, married a Lynch lady in the area and lived in the Kitson house. ... > But finding the relatives I have found through my newly acquainted family is truly the pot of gold at rainbow's end. Thanks for the continued help and prayers. God Bless you all and my family in Clare. > Ned Sweeney > Central Islip NY