Hi Sharon, from you knowledge and experience the second item below list is very thought provoking - it looks more like an entry from a census return. The entry about the prostitutes residence is unusual. I can't even speculate on why it is in the book, and the very young children who died - was there a cholera outbreak or other epidemic raging in N.Y.C at the time? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Sharon Carberry" <sm8carberry@comcast.net> To: <irl-clare@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2006 7:33 AM Subject: [IRL-CLARE] Daniel O'Neil, b.c. 1828 Kilkishen, d. 1886 NYC > Old Calvary Cemetery, p. 83 [of the book, see below] > Headstone #1111 > O'Neil > [by] Margaret [for] husband Daniel d. 20 Mar 1886 age 58 > native of Kilkishen, Clare > his granddaughter Catherine Mullane age 6 mo. > > > 1870 NY New York Co. [Manhattan], 4th Ward > O'Neil > Daniel 40 Ire longshoreman > Margareth 37 Ire > Mary 18 Ire bookfolder > Bartholomew 14 NY appr bookbinder > Paul 11 > Dennis 8 > Daniel 5 > James 2 > > 4 housing units away from a "house of ill fame" > Anna Quirk 28 Ire as head > 4 prostitutes, ages 19 to 23, three of whom b. Ire >

Unfortunately, Jeanne, the Irish do not have the US-Americans' constitutional right to bare arms. Pádraig (the Paddy that was) -----Original Message----- From: irl-clare-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:irl-clare-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Jeanne Foley Dwyer Sent: 14 September 2006 02:02 To: irl-clare@rootsweb.com Subject: [IRL-CLARE] The Arms of the Irish Actually, I wanted to interject a question about my family's arms, if I may. In my family, the Foleys of Clare, the tendency for describing the arms usually involves not nearly as technical terms as you, Mike and Padraig, have been using. In my mother's generation, for instance, the arms are considered flabby but tanned, like a turkey's waddle, if I may. Then, going back another generation, the arms were much more descriptive of the Foley's social class at that time: muscular and lean. So my question is: what could be more important on a genealogy list than a really spirited discussion of Irish arms? Insincerely, Jeanne padraigogealagain <padraigogealagain@rogers.com> wrote: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike O'Brien" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 6:55 PM Subject: Re: [IRL-CLARE] : The Arms of Irish Septs- An Explanation (Part 1) >> I think we should let this go for now. The others may have more >> important > things to talk about on this list Yes, indeed, a good idea!. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRL-CLARE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Get on board. You're invited to try the new Yahoo! Mail. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRL-CLARE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Old Calvary Cemetery, p. 252 of the book (see below) Headstone #3201 [apparently no surname for first few] [by] John and Michael [for] their father Patrick d. 1 Apr 1856 Mary wife of Patrick d. 18 Jul 1883 Michael son of Patrick and Mary d. 21 Aug 1869 John d. 28 Apr 1889, native of Clare John J. O'Grady, son of Ellen and late John O'Grady d. 14 Sep 1881 Ellen O'Grady, wife of late John, d. 2 Dec 1914 Sarah Frost d. 23 Aug 1922 1860 Manhattan, 7th Ward Frost John 38 Ire baker Mary 50 " Ellen 26 " Sarah 19 " Michael 15 " 1870 Manhattan, 8th Ward Frost John 45 Ire bakery Mary 65 " Ellen 30 " Sarah 22 " O'Grady Ellen 30 Ire Titus 13 NY paper carrier John J. 6 Salsbury 4 1880 NY Manhattan Frost Mary 72 Ire wid. John (son) 55 Ire single baker Sarah (dau.) 30 Ire single home O'Grady, Ellen (dau.) 50 Ire wid. John J. (g'son) 15 NY school pars: Ire 1900 Bklyn, 23rd Ward 39 Herkimer St. O'Grady, Ellen 65 b. Feb 1835 wid, 1 ch b/0 living immg'd 1850 sister Frost, Sarah 45 Ire June 1855 immig'd 1860 This next is from a webpage whose link I dropped and cannot yet find again-- The Church of St.John The Baptist, Meelick. O'Grady: A white marble plaque at the end of the Church reads as follows: This Church was rebuilt, the alter and stained window erected to The Glory of God and in Honour of st. John the Baptist by Mrs. Ellen O'Grady, nee Frost of Brookland U.S.A. a native of this parish for whom and the souls of her husband and brother and the other members of her family the prayers of the congregation are requested... The book: Old Calvary Cemetery: New Yorkers Carved in Stone - Rosemary Muscarella Ardolina. "New York City's Old Calvary Cemetery was established on the north side of Newtown Creek in an area then called Blissville (known today as Woodside); the first burial there was in August 1848. This book contains 5,315 transcriptions of headstones in the cemetery, dating from the mid 19th century to the mid 20th...More than 90 percent of the headstones cite Irish places of birth..." ISBN: 0788404539 out of print posted by Sharon Carberry not directly researching Frost or O'Grady

Old Calvary Cemetery, p. 83 [of the book, see below] Headstone #1111 O'Neil [by] Margaret [for] husband Daniel d. 20 Mar 1886 age 58 native of Kilkishen, Clare his granddaughter Catherine Mullane age 6 mo. 1870 NY New York Co. [Manhattan], 4th Ward O'Neil Daniel 40 Ire longshoreman Margareth 37 Ire Mary 18 Ire bookfolder Bartholomew 14 NY appr bookbinder Paul 11 Dennis 8 Daniel 5 James 2 4 housing units away from a "house of ill fame" Anna Quirk 28 Ire as head 4 prostitutes, ages 19 to 23, three of whom b. Ire 1880 Manhattan, New York O'Neil Daniel 50 Ire laborer Margaret 53 " Mary 25 " book binder Bart 23 NY printer Paul 20 " works in tin factory Denis 17 " Daniel 14 school James 11 " 1900 U.S -- no Bart or Paul 1910 NY Chemung Co., Elmira,12th Ward, 606 So. Main St O'Neil [3 names below] Bartholomew, 52 NY pars: Ire fireman, locomotive single aunt Catherine 71 Ire wid. 10 ch b/5 living immg'd 1849 cousin Mary A. 49 NY pars: Ire single Finley cousin Charles 17 NY pars: Ire boilermaker, steam RR single [1920 - none of the above apparent in the census] Old Calvary Cemetery: New Yorkers Carved in Stone - Rosemary Muscarella Ardolina. "New York City's Old Calvary Cemetery was established on the north side of Newtown Creek in an area then called Blissville (known today as Woodside); the first burial there was in August 1848. This book contains 5,315 transcriptions of headstones in the cemetery, dating from the mid 19th century to the mid 20th...More than 90 percent of the headstones cite Irish places of birth..." ISBN: 0788404539 out of print posted by Sharon Carberry ancestors from Kilkishen not directly researching O'Neil, Mullane, Finley

Ha, ha, Edna. I now confer upon you by the authority vested in me by myself, the honourable and ancient title of Ollav an gContae Clar ( 'The' Poet of Co.Clare [List]). You may now henceforth refer to yourself nominally as "The" Ollav an Clar. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Edna Burns" <irishgrammy@sbcglobal.net> To: <irl-clare@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 11:10 PM Subject: [IRL-CLARE] To arms, to arms.. > The pun is fun, but are we done... > > Edna in Kansas, who has enjoyed the discussion, serious and not so > serious!

In a message dated 9/13/2006 6:57:04 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, irl-clare-request@rootsweb.com Mike O'Brien writes: <At this time, The Clans of Ireland, Ltd is the only authority that recognizes Irish Clans. They certainly can recognize the "existence" of clan groupings as long as they don't regulate or re-organize them. <They do not recognize Irish Chiefs. Because finally they have realized they cannot legally do so. <The mission statement of The Clans of Ireland, Ltd follows: <To promote and develop the concept and organization of Irish Clans on the island of Ireland and abroad. <To represent Irish Clans at home or abroad, and to unite them into a cohesive movement. <To advance education by promoting Irish historical research, values and culture. <To encourage people with the Irish Clans to trace their family history. Those are all commendable goals which I support. <It is not a social club nor an agency of the Irish government. They are a registered charity with the Irish government supporting the Irish clans. There has been a lot of legal maneuvering in the last few years, prior to which the IGO and Office of the Chief Herald have always been agencies of the Irish government - under the National Library, as I recall. I am not a lawyer, and ought not get into whether or not a charity registered with the Irish government constitutes an agency relationship. It does not really matter. Neither a successor government nor any private entity has any authority to regulate or rule upon the validity of an ancient Irish chiefship which constituted the nobility of the Nation long prior to the existence of any current government in Ireland. <That function of Chief of Name recognition resided with the Chief Heralds Office (no connection to the Irish Genealogical Office) until 2001. They shared the same address and whatever the internal or legal relationship may have been is irrelevant. <The Chiefs of Name recognized by MacLysaght in the 1940s are still recognized. The point is these actions were improper and clearly so under international and <peerage law. They could have acknowledged their "existence" - similar to their "confirmation" of existing noble coats-of-arms, as opposed to "grants" of new arms which remain honorary but not nobiliary. Instead they ventured into the sole prerogative of the individual chiefly families, even going so far as to alter the mode of succession from tanistry to primogeniture, thereby CREATING a new nobility which is expressly forbidden under the Constitution of the Irish Republic! Curiously, I understand that those Chiefs retaining Irish "recognition" are those holding English titles held under primogeniture. <The Chiefs of Name recognized by the Chief Heralds Office between 1989 and 1992 have been suspended pending a review by that office. At this <time, the Chief Heralds Office has not reviewed any of these Chiefs. Any Chief who would consent to such a "review" would be very unwise indeed. I don't think we need worry about it happening. <The Chief Herald's Office was never a legal office in regards to Chief recognition. That's exactly what I'm saying. But they certainly acted as if they were. I hope they don't continue to try to do so through legalistic maneuvering. <They did perform genealogical research to verify Chiefs that were male bloodline descendents from their last de facto Chief and therefore authorized <to use the position designation 'THE' before their surname. Again, since they had no authority, they could not "authorize" or "verify". A Chief does have to be a documented male-line descendant of a Chiefly 'derbhfine', but not necessarily of the last Chief especially if his line is extinct or untraceable. Primogeniture demands would eliminate a large percentage of all current Chiefs! Competent genealogists certainly could have been, and should be, retained by the families themselves, but the CH or IGO could not put a stamp of approval or disapproval on the results. <'THE' is not a title but a designation for the person in charge of the senior branch of their family. The Chief Heralds Office does not designate <a Chief of Name. In the past, they only verified what someone had claimed. 'THE' is a fairly recent terminology which may or may not be used at the discretion of the Chief. Normally the Gaelic surname alone was sufficuient, but nowadays it means nothing to most people. If they verified what someone had claimed then they passed judgment on it, which was improper. <The current Genealogy and Heraldry Bill 2006 before the Irish Senate will make the Chief Heralds Office a government agency with government <employees. At that time they will be able to officially recognize Irish Chiefs of Name. I have read the Bill and can't wait for it's approval. It would <legitimize the Chief of Name position. I've seen the bill and am uncertain of its interpretation. We may well get into the same semantic nonsense. If they "recognize" an existing fact of chiefship that might help, but if they reserve any right to say who is and who is not a Chief they will be in the same old quagmire. Moreover they cannot "legitimize" something that already is legitimate. If there were a question of suitability of a documented descendant to hold a chiefship the duty to remove him would rest with his 'derbhfine', possibly with the assistance of a council of chiefs. Where does the Council of Irish Chiefs & Chieftains stand on this? <The question of elected Chiefs by derbhfine is also acceptable. Unfortunately, there were no records of these elections and therefore cannot <be verified. Unfortunate as that may be, that is all we have to work with. There is no record of pre-English application of primogeniture either. There has been the later appearance of primogeniture in some families, but that does not mean that tanistry was not employed, as when property had to be inherited by primogeniture (entailed) under English law and the chosen tanistic heir was thus the eldest son so the property and chiefship could be inherited together. "Elected Chiefs by derbhfine" sounds like the C of I Honorary chiefs who, in my opinion, after the tradfitional three generations of noble standing and suitability, could establish a genuine hereditary chiefly line. I'm all for that. See my website as for how it could work. <One further note: 'HON', as in Honorary, is the proper title for a Chief that is elected from his derbhfine. 'HON' as in Honorable, is the proper <title for those with titles received from the British Government. (Sir Conor O'Brien, 18th Baron Inchiquin is addressed as Rt Honorable Conor <O'Brien or Lord Inchiquin) Agreed, though there seems some confusion how an Irish Chief (bloodline) should be addressed aside from "The XXX" in an address or simply "Dear XXX" (surname alone) in written salutation, never "Mr." The Irish title used in that context would supercede any foreign titles which could be omitted without any offense. In direct conversation "Sir" is the easiest solution, and is acceptable for monarchs so should suffice for even the non-ruiling princely/royal Irish Chiefs as well. The O'Cahan

Hi Diane, All the names are familiar, but the times do not match, by a whole generation or two. In which country did they live after they left Ireland? Cheers PK Paul Kelly www.members.optusnet.com.au/kellsp 7th Generation Aussie Melbourne Aust. (03)97342930 0428380966 -----Original Message----- From: irl-clare-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:irl-clare-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of DLCulhane@cs.com Sent: Wednesday, 13 September 2006 12:21 AM To: IRL-CLARE@rootsweb.com Subject: [IRL-CLARE] Kellys in Attyslany North, Kilkeedy, Clare My greatgrandmother Sarah Kelly (1830-1900) was descended from the Kellys in Attyslany North. I believe her father was the Patrick Kelly in the Tithe Applotments and one brother was the Michael Kelly in Griffith's. I think she also had a brother Thomas who had sons Patrick (born about 1871) and Thomas (born about 1876) and daughter Catherine (born about 1890). Does this sound familiar to anyone? Diane ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRL-CLARE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message __________ NOD32 1.1655 (20060712) Information __________ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com

Coats of Arms? And the verse is Vanity thy name is what? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeanne Foley Dwyer" <socrates_399@yahoo.com> To: <irl-clare@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 8:40 PM Subject: Re: [IRL-CLARE] The Arms of the Irish > Sharon, now don't begrudge me my good intentions. I just wanted to give my > favorite list a shot in the arm. > > Sharon Carberry <sm8carberry@comcast.net> wrote: Ach, now, Jeanne, you > have the advantage of all prior > discussion on this. Forewarned is fore armed. > > Sharon C. > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Jeanne Foley Dwyer" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 8:02 PM > Subject: [IRL-CLARE] The Arms of the Irish > > >> Actually, I wanted to interject a question about my family's arms, if I > may. In my family, the Foleys of Clare, the tendency for describing the > arms > usually involves not nearly as technical terms as you, Mike and Padraig, > have been using. In my mother's generation, for instance, the arms are > considered flabby but tanned, like a turkey's waddle, if I may. Then, > going > back another generation, the arms were much more descriptive of the > Foley's > social class at that time: muscular and lean. So my question is: what > could > be more important on a genealogy list than a really spirited discussion of > Irish arms? >> >> Insincerely, >> Jeanne >> >> padraigogealagain > wrote: >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Mike O'Brien" >> To: >> Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 6:55 PM >> Subject: Re: [IRL-CLARE] : The Arms of Irish Septs- An Explanation (Part > 1) >> >> >> >> I think we should let this go for now. The others may have more >> >> important >> > things to talk about on this list >> >> Yes, indeed, a good idea!. >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > IRL-CLARE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> >> --------------------------------- >> Do you Yahoo!? >> Get on board. You're invited to try the new Yahoo! Mail. >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > IRL-CLARE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> -- >> No virus found in this incoming message. >> Checked by AVG Free Edition. >> Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.12.3/446 - Release Date: 9/12/2006 >> >> > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > IRL-CLARE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > --------------------------------- > Stay in the know. Pulse on the new Yahoo.com. Check it out. > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > IRL-CLARE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

The pun is fun, but are we done... Edna in Kansas, who has enjoyed the discussion, serious and not so serious!

Ach, now, Jeanne, you have the advantage of all prior discussion on this. Forewarned is fore armed. Sharon C. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeanne Foley Dwyer" <socrates_399@yahoo.com> To: <irl-clare@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 8:02 PM Subject: [IRL-CLARE] The Arms of the Irish > Actually, I wanted to interject a question about my family's arms, if I may. In my family, the Foleys of Clare, the tendency for describing the arms usually involves not nearly as technical terms as you, Mike and Padraig, have been using. In my mother's generation, for instance, the arms are considered flabby but tanned, like a turkey's waddle, if I may. Then, going back another generation, the arms were much more descriptive of the Foley's social class at that time: muscular and lean. So my question is: what could be more important on a genealogy list than a really spirited discussion of Irish arms? > > Insincerely, > Jeanne > > padraigogealagain <padraigogealagain@rogers.com> wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike O'Brien" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 6:55 PM > Subject: Re: [IRL-CLARE] : The Arms of Irish Septs- An Explanation (Part 1) > > > >> I think we should let this go for now. The others may have more > >> important > > things to talk about on this list > > Yes, indeed, a good idea!. > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRL-CLARE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Get on board. You're invited to try the new Yahoo! Mail. > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRL-CLARE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.12.3/446 - Release Date: 9/12/2006 > >

----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike O'Brien" <mike@obrienclan.com> To: <irl-clare@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 6:55 PM Subject: Re: [IRL-CLARE] : The Arms of Irish Septs- An Explanation (Part 1) >> I think we should let this go for now. The others may have more >> important > things to talk about on this list Yes, indeed, a good idea!.

From: "Mike O'Brien" <mike@obrienclan.com> To: <irl-clare@rootsweb.com> >Big, Big , SNIP>> >The following comment comes directly from the Chief Heralds Office >website?(http://www.nli.ie/fr_offi.htm): >A Chief of the Name was a person recognized by the Chief Herald as the most >senior known male >descendant of the last inaugurated or de facto chief of >that name in power in Gaelic Ireland at or before >the end of the sixteenth >century. Yes, I have been there and done that. BUT you did not explain from a previous post just who AUTHORISED the use of "The". Yes, your right, I did not, nor do I wish to discuss List matters off-List, regardless of the writer or the subject I am not at all interested, with all due respects, in the so-called modern day commercial Clan system, backed by the Irish Tourist Board. The O'Brien site is, I understand a Limited liability company, just the same as the rest of the so-called Clans (which is misnomer, as the ancient Irish never had tribal Clans). It is just commercial 'SPAM' to me, disguised as genealogy. A commercial site devoted to those who wish buying into false pride - O.K., that's their decision. I noticed your collective website is showing a blazon named the 'Royal O'Briens' - did the Office of authentic Chief Herald grant it? The blazon was never before known as 'The Royal O'Briens'.

Sharon, now don't begrudge me my good intentions. I just wanted to give my favorite list a shot in the arm. Sharon Carberry <sm8carberry@comcast.net> wrote: Ach, now, Jeanne, you have the advantage of all prior discussion on this. Forewarned is fore armed. Sharon C. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jeanne Foley Dwyer" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 8:02 PM Subject: [IRL-CLARE] The Arms of the Irish > Actually, I wanted to interject a question about my family's arms, if I may. In my family, the Foleys of Clare, the tendency for describing the arms usually involves not nearly as technical terms as you, Mike and Padraig, have been using. In my mother's generation, for instance, the arms are considered flabby but tanned, like a turkey's waddle, if I may. Then, going back another generation, the arms were much more descriptive of the Foley's social class at that time: muscular and lean. So my question is: what could be more important on a genealogy list than a really spirited discussion of Irish arms? > > Insincerely, > Jeanne > > padraigogealagain wrote: > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike O'Brien" > To: > Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 6:55 PM > Subject: Re: [IRL-CLARE] : The Arms of Irish Septs- An Explanation (Part 1) > > > >> I think we should let this go for now. The others may have more > >> important > > things to talk about on this list > > Yes, indeed, a good idea!. > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRL-CLARE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > --------------------------------- > Do you Yahoo!? > Get on board. You're invited to try the new Yahoo! Mail. > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRL-CLARE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.405 / Virus Database: 268.12.3/446 - Release Date: 9/12/2006 > > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRL-CLARE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message --------------------------------- Stay in the know. Pulse on the new Yahoo.com. Check it out.

Actually, I wanted to interject a question about my family's arms, if I may. In my family, the Foleys of Clare, the tendency for describing the arms usually involves not nearly as technical terms as you, Mike and Padraig, have been using. In my mother's generation, for instance, the arms are considered flabby but tanned, like a turkey's waddle, if I may. Then, going back another generation, the arms were much more descriptive of the Foley's social class at that time: muscular and lean. So my question is: what could be more important on a genealogy list than a really spirited discussion of Irish arms? Insincerely, Jeanne padraigogealagain <padraigogealagain@rogers.com> wrote: ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike O'Brien" To: Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 6:55 PM Subject: Re: [IRL-CLARE] : The Arms of Irish Septs- An Explanation (Part 1) >> I think we should let this go for now. The others may have more >> important > things to talk about on this list Yes, indeed, a good idea!. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRL-CLARE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Get on board. You're invited to try the new Yahoo! Mail.

----- Original Message ----- From: "padraigogealagain" <padraigogealagain@rogers.com> To: <irl-clare@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 3:16 PM Subject: Re: [IRL-CLARE] : The Arms of Irish Septs- An Explanation (Part 1) >>SNIP, SNIP to you. > I am not at all interested, with all due respects, in the so-called modern > day commercial Clan system, backed by the Irish Tourist Board. The O'Brien > site is, I understand a Limited liability company, just the same as the > rest > of the so-called Clans (which is misnomer, as the ancient Irish never had > tribal Clans). It is just commercial 'SPAM' to me, disguised as > genealogy. > A commercial site devoted to those who wish buying into false pride - > O.K., that's their decision. I don't know where you get the modern day commercial Clan system, backed by the Irish Tourist Board. If you are referring to The Clans of Ireland, they are a registered charity with the Irish government and they made arrangements to get free advertiseing through Board Failte. There is no commercial clan system that I am aware of. The O'Brien site as an LLC is out of left field. We have three sites and none are LLC. One Clan, one Foundation and one gift shop. As far as Clans go, Clan O'Brien, under the definition of Edward MacLysaght IS an Irish clan. We have 12 families that have different surnames that descend from O'Brien, therefore we are a clan. You are correct in that the Irish never had a Clan system like the Scottish. They claim all living in their area as belonging to their clan, blood or not. The Irish only claim blood. I don't know where you get the rest of it. As far as the 'Royal O'Briens' go, that's who we are. Descendents of Brian Boru. Kings throughout history. I think we should let this go for now. The others may have more important things to talk about on this list. Mike > From: "Mike O'Brien" <mike@obrienclan.com> > To: <irl-clare@rootsweb.com> > >>Big, Big , SNIP>> > >>The following comment comes directly from the Chief Heralds Office >>website?(http://www.nli.ie/fr_offi.htm): >>A Chief of the Name was a person recognized by the Chief Herald as the >>most >>senior known male >descendant of the last inaugurated or de facto chief of >>that name in power in Gaelic Ireland at or before >the end of the >>sixteenth >>century. > > Yes, I have been there and done that. BUT you did not explain from a > previous post just who AUTHORISED the use of "The". Yes, your right, I > did > not, nor do I wish to discuss List matters off-List, regardless of the > writer or the subject > > I am not at all interested, with all due respects, in the so-called modern > day commercial Clan system, backed by the Irish Tourist Board. The O'Brien > site is, I understand a Limited liability company, just the same as the > rest > of the so-called Clans (which is misnomer, as the ancient Irish never had > tribal Clans). It is just commercial 'SPAM' to me, disguised as > genealogy. > A commercial site devoted to those who wish buying into false pride - > O.K., that's their decision. > > I noticed your collective website is showing a blazon named the 'Royal > O'Briens' - did the Office of authentic Chief Herald grant it? The blazon > was never before known as 'The Royal O'Briens'. > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > IRL-CLARE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >

----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike O'Brien" <mike@obrienclan.com> To: <irl-clare@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 1:06 PM Subject: Re: [IRL-CLARE] : The Arms of Irish Septs- An Explanation (Part 1) > Snip, Snip, Snip> >Snip .... They did perform genealogical research to verify Chiefs that > were male bloodline descendents from their last de facto Chief and > therefore > authorized to use the position designation 'THE' before their surname. Who authorised them? The Genealogical Office or ...? Mike - I keep getting more or less the same info. now for the past week, as well as every other members have. It's obvious to me from the responses that there is certain informed dis-agreement with your views on the subject in general. As well as the fact, that the letter of reply which I received from the Genealogical Office of 12 February 1997 states, in part: "... There is in fact NO [emphasis added] authority for the use of "The" in Irish genealogy or Heraldry. The leaders of the Clans [read Septs] were know by their surname, eg O'Neill, O'Donnell and MacCarthy, etc " You seem to be disputing that contradicting that reply.

Padraig, I tried to discuss this off list but you refused. Sorry this info is not necessarily genealogy research related, but inquiring minds might want to know. When a person claims to be Chief of Name, the Chief Heralds Office verified that the person in question was a male bloodline descendent. The Genealogical Office and the Chief Heralds Office are two distinct functions. They support each other but recognition comes from the Chief Heralds Office. The Genealogical Office only does the research to verify the claim to the Chief Heralds Office. If the persons claim is verified to the satisfaction of the Chief Heralds Office, then the designation 'THE' is blessed for use by the individual. You should be asking your questions to the Chief Heralds Office and not the Genealogical Office. The following comment comes directly from the Chief Heralds Office website(http://www.nli.ie/fr_offi.htm): A Chief of the Name was a person recognized by the Chief Herald as the most senior known male descendant of the last inaugurated or de facto chief of that name in power in Gaelic Ireland at or before the end of the sixteenth century. In regards to genealogical research their website states: No, the Office of the Chief Herald does not undertake genealogical research or searches in the records of the office, on behalf of members of the public. There is a Genealogical Advisory Service available free of charge to personal callers to the Library, who wish to research their family tree in Ireland. Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: "padraigogealagain" <padraigogealagain@rogers.com> To: <irl-clare@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 11:44 AM Subject: Re: [IRL-CLARE] : The Arms of Irish Septs- An Explanation (Part 1) > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Mike O'Brien" <mike@obrienclan.com> > To: <irl-clare@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2006 1:06 PM > Subject: Re: [IRL-CLARE] : The Arms of Irish Septs- An Explanation (Part 1) > >> Snip, Snip, Snip> > >>Snip .... They did perform genealogical research to verify Chiefs that >> were male bloodline descendents from their last de facto Chief and >> therefore >> authorized to use the position designation 'THE' before their surname. > > Who authorised them? The Genealogical Office or ...? > > Mike - I keep getting more or less the same info. now for the past week, as > well as every other members have. It's obvious to me from the responses > that there is certain informed dis-agreement with your views on the subject > in general. > > As well as the fact, that the letter of reply which I received from the > Genealogical Office of 12 February 1997 states, in part: > > "... There is in fact NO [emphasis added] authority for the use of "The" in > Irish genealogy or Heraldry. The leaders of the Clans [read Septs] were know > by their surname, eg O'Neill, O'Donnell and MacCarthy, etc " > > You seem to be disputing that contradicting that reply. > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRL-CLARE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >

At this time, The Clans of Ireland, Ltd is the only authority that recognizes Irish Clans. They do not recognize Irish Chiefs. The mission statement of The Clans of Ireland, Ltd follows: To promote and develop the concept and organization of Irish Clans on the island of Ireland and abroad. To represent Irish Clans at home or abroad, and to unite them into a cohesive movement. To advance education by promoting Irish historical research, values and culture. To encourage people with the Irish Clans to trace their family history. It is not a social club nor an agency of the Irish government. They are a registered charity with the Irish government supporting the Irish clans. That function of Chief of Name recognition resided with the Chief Heralds Office (no connection to the Irish Genealogical Office) until 2001. The Chiefs of Name recognized by MacLysaght in the 1940s are still recognized. The Chiefs of Name recognized by the Chief Heralds Office between 1989 and 1992 have been suspended pending a review by that office. At this time, the Chief Heralds Office has not reviewed any of these Chiefs. The Chief Heralds Office was never a legal office in regards to Chief recognition. They did perform genealogical research to verify Chiefs that were male bloodline descendents from their last de facto Chief and therefore authorized to use the position designation 'THE' before their surname. 'THE' is not a title but a designation for the person in charge of the senior branch of their family. The Chief Heralds Office does not designate a Chief of Name. In the past, they only verified what someone had claimed. The current Genealogy and Heraldry Bill 2006 before the Irish Senate will make the Chief Heralds Office a government agency with government employees. At that time they will be able to officially recognize Irish Chiefs of Name. I have read the Bill and can't wait for it's approval. It would legitimize the Chief of Name position. The question of elected Chiefs by derbhfine is also acceptable. Unfortunately, there were no records of these elections and therefore cannot be verified. Unfortunate as that may be, that is all we have to work with. One further note: 'HON', as in Honorary, is the proper title for a Chief that is elected from his derbhfine. 'HON' as in Honorable, is the proper title for those with titles received from the British Government. (Sir Conor O'Brien, 18th Baron Inchiquin is addressed as Rt Honorable Conor O'Brien or Lord Inchiquin) Mike ----- Original Message ----- From: <Dolmenx@aol.com> To: <irl-clare@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, September 12, 2006 5:47 PM Subject: Re: [IRL-CLARE] : The Arms of Irish Septs- An Explanation (Part 1) >>>>There is no designated Chief of Clan Scanlan at this time. If and when > the Clan organizes and has at >>>least ten members, they could elect a > Chief > for their clan. Their title would be 'Hon' Chief of Clan >>>Scanlan. I > would suggest they contact The Clans of Ireland, Ltd to get registered >>>> also which will help build their membership. > ==================================== > > So long as the designation "Hon." means "Honorary" and not "Honorable", > I > would say go ahead and set up a clan SOCIETY through 'Clans of Ireland' > ('C of > I') , an apparent agency of the Republic of Ireland. The Chief Herald > (Irish Genealogical Office) has declared it will no longer be involved > with > genuine Irish Chiefships. That decision, at last, was the correct one, > as the > present successor government of Ireland has no authority whatsoever to > regulate > ancient Chiefships. Any elected "Chief", lacking a connected and > well-documented pedigree to a former chief, most likely would not be the > bloodline > Chief of Clan Scanlan, or any other clan. Realize that you would be > merely > joining a C of I (Republic of Ireland) social club heavily involved in > tourism. > > Genuine Irish Chiefships are hereditary through the male-line of the > chiefly > family, according to Salic tanistry. > No outside entity can "designate" a Chief. The final decision on that > matter is the family itself, and the only semblance to "election" is > among the > 'derbhfine' (male-line relatives up to 2nd cousins) of the chiefly heir > or > claimant, assuming a dormant chiefship being revived. The English system > of > primogeniture succession imposed by conquest and force of arms, and > adopted by the > present Irish government, has not changed that and cannot lawfully do so. > > The O'Cahan > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > IRL-CLARE-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >

Sarah and Fergus Kerrigan died in Ireland, as did at least two of their children, Patrick and Sarah. I don't know what happened to the oldest, Bridget. John (my grandfather) and Mary ended up in Illinois. An Irish second cousin told me Stephen "went to America and was electrocuted" but I can find no record of that. Of Sarah's Kelly nieces and nephews (children of her brother Thomas), I know only that Christy asked my grandfather to send him money to emigrate to America and I assume he did. Don't know what happened to the other children, Patrick, Thomas, and Catherine. I assume your Kellys were earlier and emigrated to Australia? Diane

>>>There is no designated Chief of Clan Scanlan at this time. If and when the Clan organizes and has at >>>least ten members, they could elect a Chief for their clan. Their title would be 'Hon' Chief of Clan >>>Scanlan. I would suggest they contact The Clans of Ireland, Ltd to get registered >>> also which will help build their membership. ==================================== So long as the designation "Hon." means "Honorary" and not "Honorable", I would say go ahead and set up a clan SOCIETY through 'Clans of Ireland' ('C of I') , an apparent agency of the Republic of Ireland. The Chief Herald (Irish Genealogical Office) has declared it will no longer be involved with genuine Irish Chiefships. That decision, at last, was the correct one, as the present successor government of Ireland has no authority whatsoever to regulate ancient Chiefships. Any elected "Chief", lacking a connected and well-documented pedigree to a former chief, most likely would not be the bloodline Chief of Clan Scanlan, or any other clan. Realize that you would be merely joining a C of I (Republic of Ireland) social club heavily involved in tourism. Genuine Irish Chiefships are hereditary through the male-line of the chiefly family, according to Salic tanistry. No outside entity can "designate" a Chief. The final decision on that matter is the family itself, and the only semblance to "election" is among the 'derbhfine' (male-line relatives up to 2nd cousins) of the chiefly heir or claimant, assuming a dormant chiefship being revived. The English system of primogeniture succession imposed by conquest and force of arms, and adopted by the present Irish government, has not changed that and cannot lawfully do so. The O'Cahan