Hi, From a geography book that my children have been reading titled "Northern Ireland in Pictures", prepared by the Geography Department, Lerner Publications Company, published 1991 (part of the Visual Geography Series), comes the following segment, pg. 26-27: "The English Kings Charles II (1660-1685) and James II (1685-1690), who were sympathetic to Catholics, tried to reestablish some rights for the Irish [this was following the introductions of many English and Scottish Protestants to both the Parliament and the land by James I, King of England and Scotland since 1603]. The Protestant prince William of Orange soon overshadowed these efforts. William challenged James II's right to rule England, Scotland, Wales, and Ireland. In 1690 William's forces defeated James' troops at a battle near the Boyne River in eastern Ireland. After his victory at the Battle of the Boyne, William became king of Great Britian and Ireland. Many Protestants in Ireland, especially in northern Ireland, had fought on William III's side. Since the eighteenth century, their decendants have gathered in an organization known as the Orange Order to recall the Protestant victory and to strengthen ties among themselves." For those who are truly interested in understanding the historical events and the political, social, and religious atmosphere our ancestors survived through, and an awareness of the Orange Order from the organization itself, I would highly recommend a lengthy visit to the following website: http://www.orangenet.org/ This site is rich with details and emotion that many of our history books lack. If anyone knows of a similiar site that could enlighten us on perspectives from the Catholic side it would be helpful to us all to be aware of it. It is a sad reminder of Ireland's difficult and war-torn past that people who love her still do battle with not just bullets and blades but emotion and words as well. I pray that those of us that have descended from the labor and sacrifice and strength and grit of these people will make them proud by finding another way. Faith will always be with us, politics will most likely be with us just as long, but learning from those who have gone before is what enbles us to rise above and make the future better. We may look back on the things that have been done and be saddened by them, but if we try to interpret them through the eyes of the current generation I think we will fail to understand what our grandfathers and our great-grandmothers were truly like. To be tolerant of those who practice of their faith differs from our own is only possible for us today because of the world (or perhaps I should day nations) we are blessed to live in. We do not face being burned alive before our families because we are Protestant, we do not have to choose between our form of worship and our right to own property because we are Catholic, and we do not live in a time when our very lives risk being turned inside out because one King died and his opposite takes his place. Ours is a different world and we owe it to our forefathers to truly try to understand theirs. I think if we do we will find them amazing people, all of them. My great-grandfather, James Drury, emigrated with his parents and siblings from Bailieborough, Cavan at the end of the 1800's. He was an Orangeman, as were his brothers, and they marched every July 12th in the parade in Melfort, Saskatchewan. I have old photos and newspaper clippings of them in kilts and banners, one playing the drums and my g-grandfather playing his fife. They were not violent, they were not angry, they were celebrating what it meant to be proud to love their homeland, to be willing to stand up for their faith (as all people of faith should), and to gather together in a sense of oneness that only those displaced from their home can share. My g-grandfather may not have wanted his daughter to marry a Catholic, but he never taught his family hatred and he didn't desire bigotry. For his sake I speak out, not to defend Protestantism or Orangemen, but to defend our ancestors rights to feel powerfully about the events that had such an impact on their lives. Kimberley ----- Original Message ----- From: "Neil & Marg Andrews" <nandrews@caloundra.net> To: <IRL-CAVAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, February 25, 2004 10:32 PM Subject: Re: [IRL-CAVAN] Orangemen > Thanks for the lesson Jane. I, too have an Orangeman and wonder > about whether there were any records kept of them and where to > find out a bit more about what they did and when. > I am currently reading the book "Trinity" by Leon Uris which takes > one back to the dire poverty of Ireland in the 1800's and the Catholic > versus the Protestants. It is a slow read and quite sad. > It is mostly from the Catholic perspective but nonetheless a very > interesting book if you have Irish on your tree. > The libraries should all have it. > Marg A. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "J T Pearson Outdoor Training" <jtpoutdoor@xtra.co.nz> > To: <IRL-CAVAN-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2004 10:43 AM > Subject: Re: [IRL-CAVAN] Orangemen > > > > William of Orange was from Orange in the Netherlands (or was the lord of > > there or something) he married Mary who was officially Queen of England in > > the 17th cent (sorry my history of Kings and Queens of Eng at this time is > > shaky) But anyway this was after the death of Charles the 2nd who as you > may > > know left 22 children none of them legitimate. His brother James was > > Catholic and it was after the Civil War etc etc. So James got booted out > > chucking the Great Seal of England in the River Thams on the way out. The > > British parliament didn't trust a mere woman (Charles sister Mary) to look > > after the country properly (hmm Eliza the first Queen Anne Queen Viccy > > seemed to have managed pretty well for the country) so they invited over a > > good solid Protestant to marry her and get the country at the same time, > ie > > William of O. He landed at Brixham in Devon and held his first Parliament > at > > a local farmhouse. The deal was that they reigned together as the > Parliament > > was too keen on turning over everything to a jolly foreigner, hence > > WilliamandMary. > > William had a campaign against the Catholics of Ireland and beat them at > the > > battle of the Boyne and started all the troubles today. Protestants were > > settled in the good bits of Ireland (mostly Ulster) and catholics were > > generally persequeted ,forbidden to be catholic ,hold land ,speak irish > etc. > > So your Orange men are vehemently protestant (see the teachings of the so > > called Rev Ian Paisly) hate Catholics and are also Masons. I think > Orangeman > > as a term probably describes some one of some standing in the Protestant > > community but I'm a bit hazy on that point. > > Green is the catholic colour (the wearing of the green was one of the > things > > forbidden) and orange for protestants. Wearing orange on St Patricks day > or > > green on an apprentices march wouldn't just be an insult in many parts of > > NI, it would be a good way to get a thumping or worse! > > Migrant Irish took their squabbles to Glasgow scotland (Always trouble at > > Celtis vs Rangers football matches), west coast of Cumbria Eng (lots of > > interfamily strife still) and the mining towns of West Coast New Zealand > > (some truely spectacular barneys and riots in the past) > > That's only a general overview I'm afraid and you may notice I have a > small > > cynical problem with people who claim to be christian and fighting someone > > else over their form of christianity (on both sides I hasten to add) > > There's probably some web site for Orangemen that might tell you more. If > > you find the right local association of The Orange Brotherhood they might > > have some details on your ancestor. Many of these would probably be pretty > > boring meeting records (like past notes of the WI) but would probably tell > > you his position in the organisation etc.The son of an Orangeman would > > probably follow in his fathers shoes to an extent, whether he would rise > as > > high in the organisation is less certain. > > regards > > > > Jane Pearson jtpoutdoor@xtra.co.nz > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "Maureen Fitzpatrick" <maureen_fitzpatrick@yahoo.com> > > To: <IRL-CAVAN-L@rootsweb.com> > > Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2004 12:17 PM > > Subject: Re: [IRL-CAVAN] Orangemen > > > > > > > An Orangeman is a Protestant. They are the people who march in July. > The > > name is from William of Orange. (My kids are both born in July -- hence > they > > are "Wee-Willies". My family in Derry always tells me to say their > > birthdays are in June.) > > > > > > My parents always said that the greatest insult was people wearing > orange > > on St. Patrick's day (mind you the Irish flag has orange in it). > > > > > > Hopefully someone will give a more educated answer than mine. > > > > > > Mo > > > > > > Clannessie@aol.com wrote: > > > Just going through my saved emails and re-read the "Anglo-Celt" sent on > > Feb. > > > 23. The first part was a funeral for an Orangeman and that reminded me > > that my > > > Aunt mentioned her Dad, my Grandfather born in 1881, was an Orangeman. > > They > > > lived in the Townland of Drumgrannon, Clonfeacle Parish, Moy on a farm. > > His > > > father, born in 1855, was a farmer and Land Bailiff for Lord Charlemont. > > > > > > Questions: > > > Could I have a quick lesson on what an "Orangeman" was and if the son > was > > one > > > would the father be one? Would there have been records kept on meetings, > > > etc.? > > > > > > Karen > > > Glendora, CA > > > > > > Taylor, Simpson, Young, Thomson, Woods, Savage, Cooper, Garroway > > > > > > > > > ==== IRL-CAVAN Mailing List ==== > > > To unsubscribe from this list click on > > > mailto:IRL-CAVAN-L-request@rootsweb.com?subject=unsubscribe (list mode) > or > > > mailto:IRL-CAVAN-D-request@rootsweb.com?subject=unsubscribe (digest > mode) > > > > > > > > > Maureen Fitzpatrick > > > Cleveland Film Society > > > Phone: 914-712-0414 > > > Fax: 914-712-0415 > > > email: maureen_fitzpatrick@yahoo.com > > > > > > > > > ==== IRL-CAVAN Mailing List ==== > > > To unsubscribe from this list click on > > > mailto:IRL-CAVAN-L-request@rootsweb.com?subject=unsubscribe (list mode) > or > > > mailto:IRL-CAVAN-D-request@rootsweb.com?subject=unsubscribe (digest > mode) > > > > > > > > > ==== IRL-CAVAN Mailing List ==== > > To unsubscribe from this list click on > > mailto:IRL-CAVAN-L-request@rootsweb.com?subject=unsubscribe (list mode) or > > mailto:IRL-CAVAN-D-request@rootsweb.com?subject=unsubscribe (digest mode) > > > > > > > > ==== IRL-CAVAN Mailing List ==== > For the IRL-CAVAN-L archives, go to > http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/IRL-CAVAN > >