In a message dated 2/26/2004 6:30:41 PM Eastern Standard Time, margold56@hotmail.com writes: Good heavens madam, where have you been for the past several years? Americans not only tell people how to live their lives, they take over whole countries and try to run them without the least respect for the socio-cultural values of the people who live in the country. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~` I am an American and I don't presume to tell anyone how to live. I'm proud to be an American. If you're not that's your business. I do hope this debate doesn't go into this............it's silly and pointless and has nothing to do with Cavan research. Donna T B

Listers: Jane Pearson writes "Surely genealogy is more than BD&M. This is correct. Quite possiblely this is why there has been so much interchange re such disparate subjects as St. Patrick, The Orangemen, The United Irishmen. etc. People don't live! They live in a context of time and place. The genealogical experience becomes far richer if we, the researchers, can learn about and TRY to understand the events and time in which our forebears lived. Thats why people like Kay Stanton and others devote themselves to transcribing the ANGLO-CELT. Many people were stimulated to ask questions and that's a good thing. Many people answered, that's an even better thing, for it broadcasts interest in our people and their lives. That's why we take smoke breaks. This is or was kind of a Genealogical smoke break. Selfishly I learned long ago while working in a small South East Asian country to put all life into a perspective. I get a laugh from what I do or it isn't worth doing. Very sincerely yours, Bill Golden, Green Harbor, Massachusetts, USof A _________________________________________________________________ Find and compare great deals on Broadband access at the MSN High-Speed Marketplace. http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200360ave/direct/01/

That was great Dick!............Think I have started something else now......hubby is always calling me "stubborn" for my Scot roots and a "rebel" for my Irish ones :) Karen

My Mum, Marion McElroy was raised Lutheran & Episcopalian and married Catholic Webber, but her Irish brogue was perfect for her favorite story... The traveling circus hit County Fermanagh. It was Sat. The day for confessions. Father Kelly's first in the booth was a gymnast from the Circus. After the confession, Father Kelly asked, "what would you be doin in the circus my boy?" "I'm a tumbler father", The priest said "Oh I've never seen a tumbler" So they stepped outside the confessional and the tumbler did two front flips, and two back flips. Mrs Oleary was next in line and saw this. She turned to Mrs Walsh and said, "If Fathas giving that for penance, I'm gonna have to go home and put me drawers on" Dick McElroy-Webber NC USA

I'll have to check that one out. I remember once getting a look at an old book about the Irish Famine, not a novel, which was a fascinating and sad read. I didn't have time to read it all and I can't even rememebr the title, but it did give a handle on all the bitterness and resentment caused by the famine which carries on today. One thing I can remember is that there was (and is) a common belief and cause of hatred of the English was that Queen Victoria's response to an appeal for the famine victims was to donate GBP5, a desultory sum even in those days, in fact she gave GBP5000, a huge amount then.And of course it's often forgotten that your average English peasant wasn't in very good shape in those days either. My grandfather was a Mason, but they're a secretive lot so I doubt whether anybody is likely to find out much about their ancestor's Masonic doings but I would imagine the Orange men would be more committe and community based, what with all their marching activities etc. regards Jane Pearson jtpoutdoor@xtra.co.nz ----- Original Message ----- From: "Neil & Marg Andrews" <nandrews@caloundra.net> To: <IRL-CAVAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2004 4:32 PM Subject: Re: [IRL-CAVAN] Orangemen > Thanks for the lesson Jane. I, too have an Orangeman and wonder > about whether there were any records kept of them and where to > find out a bit more about what they did and when. > I am currently reading the book "Trinity" by Leon Uris which takes > one back to the dire poverty of Ireland in the 1800's and the Catholic > versus the Protestants. It is a slow read and quite sad. > It is mostly from the Catholic perspective but nonetheless a very > interesting book if you have Irish on your tree. > The libraries should all have it. > Marg A. > ----- Original Message -----

Anne, You write "If we are apportioning blame, I don't suppose that the Americans tell anyone how to live their lives. Good heavens madam, where have you been for the past several years? Americans not only tell people how to live their lives, they take over whole countries and try to run them without the least respect for the socio-cultural values of the people who live in the country. If it grows it gos! Not only do we take over countries, we insult our life long allies if they dare to disagree with us, we repudiate treaties and in general we have become a big pain for the world community! Otherwise I agree with you. Sincerely yours, Bill Golden, Green Harbor, Massachusetts >From: "pne.anne" <pne.anne@ntlworld.com> >Reply-To: IRL-CAVAN-L@rootsweb.com >To: IRL-CAVAN-L@rootsweb.com >Subject: Re: [IRL-CAVAN] Orangemen >Date: Thu, 26 Feb 2004 19:55:53 -0000 > >I do not think a genealogy message board is the place to discuss religion >and politics. I do this hobby to take my mind off all the troubles in the >world and I don't want to be reminded of them on here. I am trying to find >out about my four lines of Irish ancestors which include three Catholic >families and one Protestant family. > >If we are apportioning blame, I don't suppose the Americans tell anyone how >to live their lives!!! > >Anne >----- Original Message ----- >From: <CARADOC28@aol.com> >To: <IRL-CAVAN-L@rootsweb.com> >Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2004 7:19 PM >Subject: Re: [IRL-CAVAN] Orangemen > > > > In a message dated 2/26/2004 1:30:16 PM Eastern Standard Time, > > MLeeN8NOK@aol.com writes: > > > > > > > > > > In a message dated 2/26/04 5:24:17 AM Pacific Standard Time, > > > margold56@hotmail.com writes: > > > > What is foolish is a celebration where the celebrants have no idea >of >the > > > > true > > > > events which they are commemorating. > > > > > > I second that -- and have enjoyed this discussion. I, too, wondered >what > > > the > > > term "orangemen" meant, but never thought to ask. Thanks, everyone. > > > > > > > i wear black on st patricks day > > 1st reason i want to be there at the 2nd comming as both sides >explainwhy > > they killed their brother in his name > > 2nd reason is st patrick is another englishman telling irish have they >should > > live > > egad > > > > > > > > >Chelsea,Ma.-Woburn,Ma.-denning-dennen-danin-dinan-dinihey-denningston-dinnin >g- > > >carlon-carroll-dever-cogan-malone-heslin-piscopo-mazzola-martini-farrell-mch >ug > > >h-farley-grimes-lynch-doherty-SanDanto,Ita-Adargh,longford-Revere,Ma-Wintrop >,M > > a.-sprague- and ever growing list > > Jim Denning > > > > > > ==== IRL-CAVAN Mailing List ==== > > To unsubscribe from this list click on > > mailto:IRL-CAVAN-L-request@rootsweb.com?subject=unsubscribe (list mode) >or > > mailto:IRL-CAVAN-D-request@rootsweb.com?subject=unsubscribe (digest >mode) > > > > >--- >Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. >Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). >Version: 6.0.593 / Virus Database: 376 - Release Date: 20/02/2004 > > >==== IRL-CAVAN Mailing List ==== >To unsubscribe from this list click on >mailto:IRL-CAVAN-L-request@rootsweb.com?subject=unsubscribe (list mode) or >mailto:IRL-CAVAN-D-request@rootsweb.com?subject=unsubscribe (digest mode) > _________________________________________________________________ Dream of owning a home? Find out how in the First-time Home Buying Guide. http://special.msn.com/home/firsthome.armx

I was just doing some filing and for some reason a line of small print caught my eye on a Baptism record for my Grandfather's sister that I had not seen before! The copy of the record was done in 1924. on the side in small print it says: Printed and Sold at McWatters', English Street, Armagh Does anyone know what that might mean or was it just the name of the Printers that made up the form they used to fill out the copy? Maybe I need to ask an Armagh Group. Is there one? Also is there one for Tyrone? Karen Glendora, CA

Just read through all the posts and Bill, you are right on in your thoughts!!! Thank you for saying what needs to be said! Fran ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roland & Rosemary Golden" <margold56@hotmail.com> To: <IRL-CAVAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2004 8:12 AM Subject: Re: [IRL-CAVAN] Orangemen > J.T. Pearson, et al.: Many years ago, when I was a freshman in college, I > had a prof say "There is no more brutal war than one waged in the name of > Religion. Both sides, except for the leadership, are driven by a > self-rightous zeal in pursuing the ends espoused by their faction. It is > incorrect to say, as you point out, that all Catholics hate Protestants or > that all Protestents hate Catholics. Which, from a personal perspective, is > very fortunate for me! Ian Paisley, is the "GEORGE WALLACE" of Ulster, he > was also the biggest money raiser that the IRA and Shien Fein ever had. This > probably explains his longevity. But for too long he has been portrayed as > the acrhetypical Ulster Orangeman/Protestent. He is not! Gerry Adams and > Martin McGuiness are NOT the archetypical Ulster Catholic for that matter. > It is the politicians, and power brokers who keep this antagonism on the > front burner so that they may retain power, and power equates with > privaledge and money. Just look at the good old USofA today. > > Parades and celebrations are not, in and of themselves, foolish. What is > foolish is a celebration where the celebrants have no idea of the true > events which they are commerating. The Original Orangemen celebrated the > Battle of Aughrim which took place in July of 1691, one year after the > Battle of the Boyne which, courtesy of a young, bold, dashing, brave and > none too bright cavalry commander named Sedgewick, gave James II a victory > he apparently did not want. The Annual celebration of Aughrim is mentioned > in one of Kay Stanton's transcription of "The ANGLO-CELT" not too long ago. > James left Ireland the day after the Boyne, and William fled Ireland the day > after that. > > War, all war, is the statement of the ultimate failure of the human spirit. > Bill Golden, Green Harbor, Massachusetts > > _________________________________________________________________ > Watch high-quality video with fast playback at MSN Video. Free! > http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200365ave/direct/01/ > > > ==== IRL-CAVAN Mailing List ==== > For the IRL-CAVAN-L archives, go to > http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/IRL-CAVAN > >

After going through all my board emails I find this joke my husband sent me from his motorcycle board......I thought it was funny and hope it gives everyone a wee laugh after all our serious posts Karen Paddy the famous Irishman is driving home after downing a few at the local pub. He turns a corner and much to his horror he sees a tree in the middle of the road. He swerves to avoid it and almost too late realizes that there is yet another tree directly in his path. He swerves again and discovers that his drive home has turned into a slalom course, causing him to veer from side to side to avoid all the trees. Moments later he hears the sound of a police siren and brings his car to a stop. The officer, approaches Paddy's car and asks him what on earth he was doing. Paddy tells his story of the trees in the road when the officer stops him in mid sentence and says, "Fer Chris sakes, Paddy, that's yer air freshener!"

Jane it was I that started all this and with some posts kinda of cringed for starting it but then with others I have learned so much and like Tamy in Nevada said she had always wondered and never thought to ask, am glad I did ask! Then it went to St. Patrick......and again I have learned about him including being born in Kilpatrick near Dunbarton where I have Scottish family....my Mom was born in Clydebank and her Mom born in Milngavie and her Mom born in New Kilpatrick, Dumbarton! I also agree that family information I can gather, whether it's where they were born and died or religion or anything, it all helps to round out my family history. In my family just going back to Great Grandparents I have Church of Ireland (The Orangemen that started all this) on my Grandfather's side (he ended up being prominent in the Kilbowie Church in Clydebank - Church of Scotland). On my Grandmother's side her Father was Catholic and not sure what her Mom was. They were brought up Catholic but somehow changed to Salvation Army Church when they went to Simonstown, South Africa where he worked on the dry dock. Something major must have happened and the Mom brought all 8 kids back to Scotland. My Grandparents and their children attended the Kilbowie Church (amazingly not leveled in the Blitz but my Moms home around the corner was). For some reason my Grandmothers siblings and then my Moms siblings were raised on a dislike of Catholics (we still have not figured out that puzzle piece). My Mom came to Michigan after the war where 6 of the 8 Aunts/Uncles on her Mom's side had settled and half became Baptists the other half were Catholics. My oldest son is our first child to be married and Melissa is Catholic and I have no problems what so ever on the matter! I just kinda look at it in a way it has gone full circle..but that's just my thought :) Anyway.....Thanks to Jane and all the others that have added their two-cents to my question....it has even opened a whole new "folder" in my genealogy box! Karen, Glendora, CA

You could be right about it being James the 2nd , but I have it as being King Billy who won the Battle of the Boyne and is remember with affection by the Orangemen, I'm sure James was RC and kicked out of Eng. I too have trouble with keeping track of the Royals during this period of history. Either way we agree on Mary, she would have been sister to both Charles and James. Thomas Keneallys book "The Great Shame" deals with transportation of Irish Politicals to Aus, including Smith O'Brien and his subsequent career. When I read it I felt the great shame was what a load of self serving idiots the leaders of the movement were, they couldn't organise the proverbial in a brewery. And they were hoping the peasantry would be stupid enough to rise up and get shot so that they could have their moment of glory, what a shower! regards Jane Pearson jtpoutdoor@xtra.co.nz ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roland & Rosemary Golden" <margold56@hotmail.com> To: <IRL-CAVAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2004 2:22 PM Subject: Re: [IRL-CAVAN] Orangemen > Listers, A good, scholarly book on this subject is F.S. Foster's "History of > Modern Ireland, 1600-1972". > Published by Penguin Books, 1988. The author questions whether the Battle of > the Boyne was an Orange Victory, or a question of the Catholic Army being > snatched from the Jaws of Victory. Papal politics were involved, and on & > on. Like Jane I have little patience for anybody running around proclaiming > their righteous Christianity, or any other religion, and then in the name of > Christ like figure proceeding to slaughter their neighbors. There is NO > PLACE FOR THE SWORD, BOMB, OR BULLET in any socio-cultural disagreement. I > thought it was James II at the Boyne, and his sister who was married to > William of Orange. I can never keep the British Royals apart, not even > today. I have enough trouble with my own relatives. At a St. Patrick's Day > Parade in South Boston, MA, an Army Engineer Bn., wearing there branch > colored scarves of Orange, were booed by the spectators. They had NO IDEA > why they were booed! The Fort Devens Post Commander was livid. > > The Orange, White, and green tri-color is patterned after the French > tri-color. This flag of the Irish Republic was presented by some Parisian > ladies to William Smith O'Brien in about 1845, when Smith O'Brien was in > France trying to drum up support for an Irish revolt against the English. > Smith O'Brien was a Protestent. > > Bill Golden > > _________________________________________________________________ > Find and compare great deals on Broadband access at the MSN High-Speed > Marketplace. http://click.atdmt.com/AVE/go/onm00200360ave/direct/01/ > > > ==== IRL-CAVAN Mailing List ==== > To unsubscribe from this list click on > mailto:IRL-CAVAN-L-request@rootsweb.com?subject=unsubscribe (list mode) or > mailto:IRL-CAVAN-D-request@rootsweb.com?subject=unsubscribe (digest mode) >

Well so much for genealogy. Any idea when it will return? Dennis

Hi Can anyone help with info on Michael Brady mar Mary Ann Rielly Turalahaood Upper Via Stradon, son Michael born Torman District ?? TIA Elaine

In a message dated 2/26/2004 3:06:23 PM Eastern Standard Time, CARADOC28@aol.com writes: > > > > English? > > His parents were Roman > > he may have been born in Britain that doesn't make him British. > > Like being born in a stable doesn't make you a horse > > > > those people stayed and are now part of the english fiber and character yeah > he is english > your perspective might be different since i consider myself a keltio catholic much more inline with the people st patrick decided were barbarians and pagans .[romans usually did that] Chelsea,Ma.-Woburn,Ma.-denning-dennen-danin-dinan-dinihey-denningston-dinning- carlon-carroll-dever-cogan-malone-heslin-piscopo-mazzola-martini-farrell-mchug h-farley-grimes-lynch-doherty-SanDanto,Ita-Adargh,longford-Revere,Ma-Wintrop,M a.-sprague- and ever growing list Jim Denning

In a message dated 2/26/2004 2:55:12 PM Eastern Standard Time, pne.anne@ntlworld.com writes: > > > I do not think a genealogy message board is the place to discuss religion > and politics. I do this hobby to take my mind off all the troubles in the > world and I don't want to be reminded of them on here. I am trying to find > out about my four lines of Irish ancestors which include three Catholic > families and one Protestant family. > yeah i agree but Not all Irish are all Protestant or all catholic mine are mixed and the reason they came to america as exciles is that in 1798 rebellion whats not known is it was a protestant catholic rebellion. In Ireland separating politics and religionand geneaology is wandering in fairy tale land . becase one causes the other My family is predominately coming from england until Mary Queen Of Scots and the split of the churchs . At that time many went north to Scotland . Then came Knox and that insanity. Being lowland catholics was like being black in Georgia in 1805. So when the Forbes left for longsford they took us to build their castles. 1775 forbes left to America and Chelsea Ma . 180_? we followed how do you tell that story with out religion and politics. I dont think you can. thepoint is lets get it straight Chelsea,Ma.-Woburn,Ma.-denning-dennen-danin-dinan-dinihey-denningston-dinning- carlon-carroll-dever-cogan-malone-heslin-piscopo-mazzola-martini-farrell-mchug h-farley-grimes-lynch-doherty-SanDanto,Ita-Adargh,longford-Revere,Ma-Wintrop,M a.-sprague- and ever growing list Jim Denning

In a message dated 2/26/2004 2:20:28 PM Eastern Standard Time, CARADOC28@aol.com writes: 2nd reason is st patrick is another englishman telling irish have they should live egad ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ With all due respect maybe you should read up on St Patrick. He did nothing of the sort. Donna T B

In a message dated 2/26/2004 2:44:45 PM Eastern Standard Time, seosimhin@btopenworld.com writes: English? His parents were Roman he may have been born in Britain that doesn't make him British. Like being born in a stable doesn't make you a horse ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://www.saintpatrickcentre.com/ and http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11554a.htm Apostle of Ireland, born at Kilpatrick, near Dumbarton, in Scotland, in the year 387; died at Saul, Downpatrick, Ireland, 17 March, 493. He had for his parents Calphurnius and Conchessa. The former belonged to a Roman family of high rank and held the office of decurio in Gaul or Britain. Conchessa was a near relative of the great patron of Gaul, St. Martin of Tours. Kilpatrick still retains many memorials of Saint Patrick, and frequent pilgrimages continued far into the Middle Ages to perpetuate there the fame of his sanctity and miracles. B

In a message dated 2/26/2004 2:44:45 PM Eastern Standard Time, seosimhin@btopenworld.com writes: > > English? > His parents were Roman > he may have been born in Britain that doesn't make him British. > Like being born in a stable doesn't make you a horse > those people stayed and are now part of the english fiber and character yeah he is english Chelsea,Ma.-Woburn,Ma.-denning-dennen-danin-dinan-dinihey-denningston-dinning- carlon-carroll-dever-cogan-malone-heslin-piscopo-mazzola-martini-farrell-mchug h-farley-grimes-lynch-doherty-SanDanto,Ita-Adargh,longford-Revere,Ma-Wintrop,M a.-sprague- and ever growing list Jim Denning

Hi all, I had a look at this Will even though it isn't connected to me, and found it fascinating particularly as it is from my ancestors old stamping ground of Castleterra. From this link I also found that there is a CD of "Irish Masonic Records" In view of another email of today which connect the Orangemen with Masons, I am interested to know whether anyone has this CD and would look for the surname of KEMP for me please. My ggg/father WILLIAM KEMP migrated to Australia in 1864 and was an Orangeman in Castleterra before then. He was born about 1844 his brother JOHN abt 1846 and then there was his father ROBERT ? Marg A nandrews@caloundra.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "Colin Ferguson" <colinf@sierratel.com> To: <IRL-CAVAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, February 26, 2004 8:32 AM Subject: [IRL-CAVAN] Re: NEWBURGH (NEWBERRY) from Ballyhaise > Sharon, > Here is the will of Thomas Newburgh of Ballyhaise, 1696. > http://www.sierratel.com/colinf/genuki/CAV/Castleterra/TNWill.htm > -- > Cheers, > Colin Ferguson > > > ==== IRL-CAVAN Mailing List ==== > For the IRL-CAVAN-L archives, go to > http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/IRL-CAVAN >

In a message dated 2/26/2004 1:30:16 PM Eastern Standard Time, MLeeN8NOK@aol.com writes: > > In a message dated 2/26/04 5:24:17 AM Pacific Standard Time, > margold56@hotmail.com writes: > > What is foolish is a celebration where the celebrants have no idea of the > > true > > events which they are commemorating. > > I second that -- and have enjoyed this discussion. I, too, wondered what > the > term "orangemen" meant, but never thought to ask. Thanks, everyone. > i wear black on st patricks day 1st reason i want to be there at the 2nd comming as both sides explainwhy they killed their brother in his name 2nd reason is st patrick is another englishman telling irish have they should live egad Chelsea,Ma.-Woburn,Ma.-denning-dennen-danin-dinan-dinihey-denningston-dinning- carlon-carroll-dever-cogan-malone-heslin-piscopo-mazzola-martini-farrell-mchug h-farley-grimes-lynch-doherty-SanDanto,Ita-Adargh,longford-Revere,Ma-Wintrop,M a.-sprague- and ever growing list Jim Denning