Hi John I made this suggestion [for people who might be interested] based on my own personal experience. I have nothing to gain financially by promoting DNA testing only looking to expand my own research. I thought as a group it might prove worthwhile to our list as we all have one thing in common - CARLOW. We share all our information on Carlow and this would be taking it one step further! It will only be useful if the results are all available in one data base - that is why I suggested we use Family Tree DNA which are running a special at the moment and as I have used it myself for a number of test for myself and my husband. I believe that you can upload your results to some of the other data bases for a fee but I haven't done this myself as yet. To prove it works and to isolate the Warren cousins specifically - one of Rob's females cousins from Canada undertook a Family Finder test. Family Tree did not know they were connected in anyway as she has a totally different surname and lives in another country. She came up in his data base as a 2nd cousin, and he in hers, which she is; as their grandfathers were brothers from Tullow, Co Carlow. So I proved it works which was a concern to me also and I think this should cover your query as to decent proof! So a male cousin was linked to a female cousin with a totally different surname which I think is a marvelous DNA test and the most useful one for females as well as males. I don't believe DNA testing is flawed and I say this because of our own personal experience. Many years ago, my husband got a call from a girl friend from his distant past - saying he was the father of her child which she had given up for adoption. A huge shock for us ALL - especially as it was over thirty years since he had seen her and never knew of her terrible dilemma! Our family had a wonderful relationship with his new found son although he lived on the other side of the world! After six years, we decided to do a paternal DNA test when they became available for legalities with wills etc. They undertook a paternal DNA test which said they were not father and son!! It was a terrible shock and we were all devastated and couldn't believe it. The happy ending to this saga is that we all still have a very close relationship and he is still a part of our family although not related by DNA! We had the tests done at least three times at different labs in the UK and Australia - his birth mother contributed DNA for testing as well. The results from all the tests showed that the results were absolutely identical - not just YES or NO - but each marker that was tested gave identical readings- some 16 different markers from memory. You get half of the DNA from the mother and half from the father. So you eliminate those identical with the mother and the remaining have to be an exact match with the father. All very interesting from a scientific point of view but can be devastating from a personal one. As a result I have absolutely no doubts about the accuracy of DNA testing. That's it from me on this subject as I am going away for a month. For those interest in this exercise I suggest we all use the one company to keep things simple. Susie Warren -----Original Message----- From: irl-carlow-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:irl-carlow-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of John Shepperd Sent: Saturday, June 15, 2013 4:57 PM To: irl-carlow@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [IRL-CARLOW] IRL-CARLOW Digest, Vol 8, Issue 214 Probably a good deal of flawed science in this, as well as heavy marketing. It is a nice idea, but has enormous potential for duping the innocent of Carlow! We need decent proof that this system is valid. John

I went with FTDNA with some trepidation as to the cost but only during their periodic "specials", which still are far from cheap. If you plan to go that way, register with them and await these specials offers. My decision was made by listening to very experienced genealogical researchers who had been right into the whole topic. I did not go into it for medical reasons. Tanya's posts may suggest that the best of both uses can be had by going to both 23and me and FTDNA. I know nothing about 23and me. Obviously, the limit on success will always be the numbers who don't have the tests OR don't make the results available. This was Susie's case - to have our own Carlow database. FTDNA, 23and me or whoever you pay to do the tests do not own the results. You can obtain the results and publish them anywhere. I know FTDNA have groups, such as surname groups, that attempt to bring people with like interests together. Personally I find their website clunky despite admirable attempts to supply all relevant information, research, statistics and links. No John, the tests do not hurt. I think that there are differing collection methods. FTDNA supplies a kit that requires a mouth swab by a type of cotton bud that you place in the supplied sterile container and return to them. The results are retained indefinitely in case a new type of test emerges, in which case your original sample can be used for such new test. In my case, I did not do the test with Carlow in mind. My Carlow ancestry is almost entirely female and there are suggestions that my oldest known direct female ancestor, Alicia Wyly, came from France. She married Joseph Malone, the Rathmore miller I noted at the list a couple of days ago. I see DNA being most useful in a particular case to do with my HALPIN ancestors to overcome the lack of reliable records going back in time. My known Halpin ancestors and their relations come from Wicklow and Dublin. They were active and successful Church of Ireland families. There was an equally active COI Halpin family that derived from Portarlington, Queens/Laois, who interact with mine in so many instances but no records can be found so far to confirm this suggested link. If I can get direct male descendants of each line to take the DNA test, so strong are the yDNA inherited markers that a relationship should be able to be confirmed or ruled out. The yDNA test is that strong (except in cases illegitimacy). So, if you feel that your surname line MAY be related to another, DNA gives an added line of research. But also, as Susie was saying, there is also the so-called Family Finder test, which by means that are beyond my poor comprehension profess to be able to combine all markers to indicate possible cousin connections with degrees of likeness. Within a designated area of origin, such as Co Carlow, the chances of finding cousins improves. But this depends on numbers having DNA tests. And here is the Catch 22. The tests are expensive (but one off) with no guarantees of finding any matches. But if you don't have the test, you will never know. Keep in mind that one member of your family having the test covers a large number of known members of your family, so you could elect to share the cost. I may be wrong but I should think that getting the oldest living member/s of your family of interest to have the test might narrow the dilution effect (except direct male yDNA, especially, and direct female mitochondrial markers). If you have technical questions, Rootsweb and others have DNA lists but I warn that much of the discussion can be highly involved and way over my head, but impressive nonetheless. Bill -----Original Message----- From: irl-carlow-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:irl-carlow-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Susan Warren Sent: Monday, 17 June 2013 12:21 PM To: irl-carlow@rootsweb.com Subject: [IRL-CARLOW] DNA Testing - Some proof! Hi John I made this suggestion [for people who might be interested] based on my own personal experience. I have nothing to gain financially by promoting DNA testing only looking to expand my own research. I thought as a group it might prove worthwhile to our list as we all have one thing in common - CARLOW. We share all our information on Carlow and this would be taking it one step further! It will only be useful if the results are all available in one data base - that is why I suggested we use Family Tree DNA which are running a special at the moment and as I have used it myself for a number of test for myself and my husband. I believe that you can upload your results to some of the other data bases for a fee but I haven't done this myself as yet. To prove it works and to isolate the Warren cousins specifically - one of Rob's females cousins from Canada undertook a Family Finder test. Family Tree did not know they were connected in anyway as she has a totally different surname and lives in another country. She came up in his data base as a 2nd cousin, and he in hers, which she is; as their grandfathers were brothers from Tullow, Co Carlow. So I proved it works which was a concern to me also and I think this should cover your query as to decent proof! So a male cousin was linked to a female cousin with a totally different surname which I think is a marvelous DNA test and the most useful one for females as well as males. I don't believe DNA testing is flawed and I say this because of our own personal experience. Many years ago, my husband got a call from a girl friend from his distant past - saying he was the father of her child which she had given up for adoption. A huge shock for us ALL - especially as it was over thirty years since he had seen her and never knew of her terrible dilemma! Our family had a wonderful relationship with his new found son although he lived on the other side of the world! After six years, we decided to do a paternal DNA test when they became available for legalities with wills etc. They undertook a paternal DNA test which said they were not father and son!! It was a terrible shock and we were all devastated and couldn't believe it. The happy ending to this saga is that we all still have a very close relationship and he is still a part of our family although not related by DNA! We had the tests done at least three times at different labs in the UK and Australia - his birth mother contributed DNA for testing as well. The results from all the tests showed that the results were absolutely identical - not just YES or NO - but each marker that was tested gave identical readings- some 16 different markers from memory. You get half of the DNA from the mother and half from the father. So you eliminate those identical with the mother and the remaining have to be an exact match with the father. All very interesting from a scientific point of view but can be devastating from a personal one. As a result I have absolutely no doubts about the accuracy of DNA testing. That's it from me on this subject as I am going away for a month. For those interest in this exercise I suggest we all use the one company to keep things simple. Susie Warren -----Original Message----- From: irl-carlow-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:irl-carlow-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of John Shepperd Sent: Saturday, June 15, 2013 4:57 PM To: irl-carlow@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [IRL-CARLOW] IRL-CARLOW Digest, Vol 8, Issue 214 Probably a good deal of flawed science in this, as well as heavy marketing. It is a nice idea, but has enormous potential for duping the innocent of Carlow! We need decent proof that this system is valid. John

I am providing information supporting Susie's original idea (read below). WorldFamilies.net, which is allied to FTDNA, provides an information page that should be of interest to anyone who may be curious about the potential uses of DNA for family history. It is at http://www.worldfamilies.net/smart. Of potential relevance to Susie's topic is the link to 'Geographic Projects'. There exist already a number of Irish projects, the most interesting of which to me seems to be an Ireland mtDNA group that already has 1197 members. (At this page, John, is displayed a picture and information on FTDNA's testing kit.) There is also information on uploading results of outside tests to FTDNA's databases. I repeat that I have no brief for FTDNA but that they have the genealogical side of DNA pretty much tied up. Perhaps many members of a family can contribute to the cost of one senior member being tested. Bill -----Original Message----- From: irl-carlow-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:irl-carlow-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Susan Warren Sent: Monday, 17 June 2013 12:21 PM To: irl-carlow@rootsweb.com Subject: [IRL-CARLOW] DNA Testing - Some proof! Hi John I made this suggestion [for people who might be interested] based on my own personal experience. I have nothing to gain financially by promoting DNA testing only looking to expand my own research. I thought as a group it might prove worthwhile to our list as we all have one thing in common - CARLOW. We share all our information on Carlow and this would be taking it one step further! It will only be useful if the results are all available in one data base - that is why I suggested we use Family Tree DNA which are running a special at the moment and as I have used it myself for a number of test for myself and my husband. I believe that you can upload your results to some of the other data bases for a fee but I haven't done this myself as yet. To prove it works and to isolate the Warren cousins specifically - one of Rob's females cousins from Canada undertook a Family Finder test. Family Tree did not know they were connected in anyway as she has a totally different surname and lives in another country. She came up in his data base as a 2nd cousin, and he in hers, which she is; as their grandfathers were brothers from Tullow, Co Carlow. So I proved it works which was a concern to me also and I think this should cover your query as to decent proof! So a male cousin was linked to a female cousin with a totally different surname which I think is a marvelous DNA test and the most useful one for females as well as males. I don't believe DNA testing is flawed and I say this because of our own personal experience. Many years ago, my husband got a call from a girl friend from his distant past - saying he was the father of her child which she had given up for adoption. A huge shock for us ALL - especially as it was over thirty years since he had seen her and never knew of her terrible dilemma! Our family had a wonderful relationship with his new found son although he lived on the other side of the world! After six years, we decided to do a paternal DNA test when they became available for legalities with wills etc. They undertook a paternal DNA test which said they were not father and son!! It was a terrible shock and we were all devastated and couldn't believe it. The happy ending to this saga is that we all still have a very close relationship and he is still a part of our family although not related by DNA! We had the tests done at least three times at different labs in the UK and Australia - his birth mother contributed DNA for testing as well. The results from all the tests showed that the results were absolutely identical - not just YES or NO - but each marker that was tested gave identical readings- some 16 different markers from memory. You get half of the DNA from the mother and half from the father. So you eliminate those identical with the mother and the remaining have to be an exact match with the father. All very interesting from a scientific point of view but can be devastating from a personal one. As a result I have absolutely no doubts about the accuracy of DNA testing. That's it from me on this subject as I am going away for a month. For those interest in this exercise I suggest we all use the one company to keep things simple. Susie Warren -----Original Message----- From: irl-carlow-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:irl-carlow-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of John Shepperd Sent: Saturday, June 15, 2013 4:57 PM To: irl-carlow@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [IRL-CARLOW] IRL-CARLOW Digest, Vol 8, Issue 214 Probably a good deal of flawed science in this, as well as heavy marketing. It is a nice idea, but has enormous potential for duping the innocent of Carlow! We need decent proof that this system is valid. John ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRL-CARLOW-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message