thanks Tom, but I am only talking about title deeds, as far I could ascertain the Castle was only ever leased after King James retained ownership in 1604, with title passing to his successors on the throne. I am not saying that the present Queen Elizabeth could sell our Castle but maybe we could hold her liable for maintenance and repairs ( plus a pile of inheritance tax )!. Regarding maintenance the castle environs were not so well maintained from the 1960s to mid-1980s, you saw it long after we carried out a 3 month long major clean-up and removed seven extra large skip loads of rubbish off site, if you saw the pictures I took you would hardly believe how derelict the Castle grounds had become. On 1 October 2013 18:30, Tom LaPorte <tlaporte@mymts.net> wrote: > Hi Mick > Okay, so the argument for the castle not being Crown Lands is that it was > ceded to King Edward I personally (1300's) and to his sole heirs and not to > 'The Crown'. Much later King James I (1604) still retained title to the > castle and land and retained ownership for himself and his successors. > Wouldn't the distinction that the land they held personally would not be > considered Crown Land actually have stopped the castle from being legally > transferred from the Plantagenets through the Houses of Lancaster, York and > Tudor and then to the Stuarts? If it was not retained by Edward I's sole > heirs or someone's sole heirs along that line that implies ownership by The > Crown rather than by the man. > If the Castle was vested in the "King's name and leased to others by his > Royal successors thereafter" that is a pretty good definition of what Crown > Lands are. > Various definitions online: > "Crown Lands in Canada: The majority of all lands in Canada are held by > governments in the name of the monarch and are called Crown Lands." > "crown land n. 1. Land that belongs to the crown and yields its revenues > to the reigning monarch." > "crown land noun 1. land belonging to the crown, the revenue of which > goes to the reigning sovereign." > James reserved ownership of the Castle for himself and his "successors". > After James I and up until George I a case could be made for land > following the successors but George I only inherited the Crown as he was > the closest descendant of the Stuart line who was not Catholic. Meanwhile > Catholic's were happily inheriting privately held land as long as they > swore fealty to the Crown and didn't practice their religion, they just > couldn't be king. Lots of Stuart's retained their land and continued to > inherit their land. So the line of succession and the line of inheritance > were made two different things. After Anne died as the last Stuart Queen, > you would have to go back up the Stuart family tree 4 generations and then > back down 3 in another branch to get to George I. Land entitlement > wouldn't have bypassed that many male heirs without claims being made. > If ownership of the Castle was in fact retained by George I it must have > been considered to be Crown Land and should have been redistributed. > Alternatively, it is possibly now held 'technically' by some Stuart > descendant????? > I think the Carlow authority is putting up a smokescreen. The last time I > saw the castle it seemed to be beautifully maintained though and there were > information signs about its history or didn't I look close enough? > Tom > > Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2013 15:20:17 +0100 > > From: carlowmike@gmail.com > > To: irl-carlow@rootsweb.com > > Subject: Re: [IRL-CARLOW] Ownership of Carlow Castle > > > > Thanks Tom , good observation but in the 1979 a group of us approached > the > > then Carlow County Manager regarding maintenance of and accessibility to > > the Castle, we were informed that the Office of Public Works were the > > custodians of the Castle and grounds but ownership was in doubt as it had > > not been considered Crown lands as it had been since 1306 vested in the > > King's name and leased to others by his Royal successors thereafter. > > This explanation may have been a ploy by the local authority or the Board > > of Works to avoid confrontation with Corcoran's Mineral Works who at the > > time controlled access and had in the past erected a greenhouse and > planted > > vegetables on the grounds and possibly also to avoid responsibility. > > Regardless of this Carlow County Heritage Society undertook a major > > clean-up of the grounds in 1990, during which we removed 7 large skip > loads > > of rubbish from the castle grounds. > > I am at present trying to track down deeds etc. > > The following is extract from my work in progress on Carlow Castle - > > > > *Shortly before his death in December 1306, the 58 year old Roger le > > Bigodhad appointed King Edward 1 as sole heir to all his > > * > > > > * “honours, titles, estates, castles, manors, boroughs, lands, goods and > > chattels” * > > > > *which included, * > > > > *“The Manor, Castle and borough of Catherlach, with all their > appurtenances; > > * > > > > *and the Body of the County with assizes and perquisites”. * > > > > *This proved to be a fortunate turn of events for future historians > because > > as soon as the King acquired the Manor and Castle all the Rolls, Court > > Records, Writs, Accounts and other material compiled by the Seneschal, > > Treasurer, Constable, sheriffs, bailiffs, reeves, receivers and lesser > > clerks were transferred to the Tower of London where the originals were > > preserved. I believe the archives were transferred to the National > Archives > > at Kew. * > > > > *We know that in 1604 King James handed over the remainder of his Carlow > > property to Donough O'Brien but the King reserved ownership of the Castle > > for himself and his "successors" ?.* > >m with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the > body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > IRL-CARLOW-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >