thanks Tom, but I am only talking about title deeds, as far I could ascertain the Castle was only ever leased after King James retained ownership in 1604, with title passing to his successors on the throne. I am not saying that the present Queen Elizabeth could sell our Castle but maybe we could hold her liable for maintenance and repairs ( plus a pile of inheritance tax )!. Regarding maintenance the castle environs were not so well maintained from the 1960s to mid-1980s, you saw it long after we carried out a 3 month long major clean-up and removed seven extra large skip loads of rubbish off site, if you saw the pictures I took you would hardly believe how derelict the Castle grounds had become. On 1 October 2013 18:30, Tom LaPorte <tlaporte@mymts.net> wrote: > Hi Mick > Okay, so the argument for the castle not being Crown Lands is that it was > ceded to King Edward I personally (1300's) and to his sole heirs and not to > 'The Crown'. Much later King James I (1604) still retained title to the > castle and land and retained ownership for himself and his successors. > Wouldn't the distinction that the land they held personally would not be > considered Crown Land actually have stopped the castle from being legally > transferred from the Plantagenets through the Houses of Lancaster, York and > Tudor and then to the Stuarts? If it was not retained by Edward I's sole > heirs or someone's sole heirs along that line that implies ownership by The > Crown rather than by the man. > If the Castle was vested in the "King's name and leased to others by his > Royal successors thereafter" that is a pretty good definition of what Crown > Lands are. > Various definitions online: > "Crown Lands in Canada: The majority of all lands in Canada are held by > governments in the name of the monarch and are called Crown Lands." > "crown land n. 1. Land that belongs to the crown and yields its revenues > to the reigning monarch." > "crown land noun 1. land belonging to the crown, the revenue of which > goes to the reigning sovereign." > James reserved ownership of the Castle for himself and his "successors". > After James I and up until George I a case could be made for land > following the successors but George I only inherited the Crown as he was > the closest descendant of the Stuart line who was not Catholic. Meanwhile > Catholic's were happily inheriting privately held land as long as they > swore fealty to the Crown and didn't practice their religion, they just > couldn't be king. Lots of Stuart's retained their land and continued to > inherit their land. So the line of succession and the line of inheritance > were made two different things. After Anne died as the last Stuart Queen, > you would have to go back up the Stuart family tree 4 generations and then > back down 3 in another branch to get to George I. Land entitlement > wouldn't have bypassed that many male heirs without claims being made. > If ownership of the Castle was in fact retained by George I it must have > been considered to be Crown Land and should have been redistributed. > Alternatively, it is possibly now held 'technically' by some Stuart > descendant????? > I think the Carlow authority is putting up a smokescreen. The last time I > saw the castle it seemed to be beautifully maintained though and there were > information signs about its history or didn't I look close enough? > Tom > > Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2013 15:20:17 +0100 > > From: carlowmike@gmail.com > > To: irl-carlow@rootsweb.com > > Subject: Re: [IRL-CARLOW] Ownership of Carlow Castle > > > > Thanks Tom , good observation but in the 1979 a group of us approached > the > > then Carlow County Manager regarding maintenance of and accessibility to > > the Castle, we were informed that the Office of Public Works were the > > custodians of the Castle and grounds but ownership was in doubt as it had > > not been considered Crown lands as it had been since 1306 vested in the > > King's name and leased to others by his Royal successors thereafter. > > This explanation may have been a ploy by the local authority or the Board > > of Works to avoid confrontation with Corcoran's Mineral Works who at the > > time controlled access and had in the past erected a greenhouse and > planted > > vegetables on the grounds and possibly also to avoid responsibility. > > Regardless of this Carlow County Heritage Society undertook a major > > clean-up of the grounds in 1990, during which we removed 7 large skip > loads > > of rubbish from the castle grounds. > > I am at present trying to track down deeds etc. > > The following is extract from my work in progress on Carlow Castle - > > > > *Shortly before his death in December 1306, the 58 year old Roger le > > Bigodhad appointed King Edward 1 as sole heir to all his > > * > > > > * “honours, titles, estates, castles, manors, boroughs, lands, goods and > > chattels” * > > > > *which included, * > > > > *“The Manor, Castle and borough of Catherlach, with all their > appurtenances; > > * > > > > *and the Body of the County with assizes and perquisites”. * > > > > *This proved to be a fortunate turn of events for future historians > because > > as soon as the King acquired the Manor and Castle all the Rolls, Court > > Records, Writs, Accounts and other material compiled by the Seneschal, > > Treasurer, Constable, sheriffs, bailiffs, reeves, receivers and lesser > > clerks were transferred to the Tower of London where the originals were > > preserved. I believe the archives were transferred to the National > Archives > > at Kew. * > > > > *We know that in 1604 King James handed over the remainder of his Carlow > > property to Donough O'Brien but the King reserved ownership of the Castle > > for himself and his "successors" ?.* > >m with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the > body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > IRL-CARLOW-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Carlow Genealogy Archives - Military & Constabulary Irish Constabulary with native county of Carlow 1858 (partial) www.igp-web.com/IGPArchives/ire/carlow/military.htm

Hi Mick Okay, so the argument for the castle not being Crown Lands is that it was ceded to King Edward I personally (1300's) and to his sole heirs and not to 'The Crown'. Much later King James I (1604) still retained title to the castle and land and retained ownership for himself and his successors. Wouldn't the distinction that the land they held personally would not be considered Crown Land actually have stopped the castle from being legally transferred from the Plantagenets through the Houses of Lancaster, York and Tudor and then to the Stuarts? If it was not retained by Edward I's sole heirs or someone's sole heirs along that line that implies ownership by The Crown rather than by the man. If the Castle was vested in the "King's name and leased to others by his Royal successors thereafter" that is a pretty good definition of what Crown Lands are. Various definitions online: "Crown Lands in Canada: The majority of all lands in Canada are held by governments in the name of the monarch and are called Crown Lands." "crown land n. 1. Land that belongs to the crown and yields its revenues to the reigning monarch." "crown land noun 1. land belonging to the crown, the revenue of which goes to the reigning sovereign." James reserved ownership of the Castle for himself and his "successors". After James I and up until George I a case could be made for land following the successors but George I only inherited the Crown as he was the closest descendant of the Stuart line who was not Catholic. Meanwhile Catholic's were happily inheriting privately held land as long as they swore fealty to the Crown and didn't practice their religion, they just couldn't be king. Lots of Stuart's retained their land and continued to inherit their land. So the line of succession and the line of inheritance were made two different things. After Anne died as the last Stuart Queen, you would have to go back up the Stuart family tree 4 generations and then back down 3 in another branch to get to George I. Land entitlement wouldn't have bypassed that many male heirs without claims being made. If ownership of the Castle was in fact retained by George I it must have been considered to be Crown Land and should have been redistributed. Alternatively, it is possibly now held 'technically' by some Stuart descendant????? I think the Carlow authority is putting up a smokescreen. The last time I saw the castle it seemed to be beautifully maintained though and there were information signs about its history or didn't I look close enough? Tom > Date: Sat, 28 Sep 2013 15:20:17 +0100 > From: carlowmike@gmail.com > To: irl-carlow@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [IRL-CARLOW] Ownership of Carlow Castle > > Thanks Tom , good observation but in the 1979 a group of us approached the > then Carlow County Manager regarding maintenance of and accessibility to > the Castle, we were informed that the Office of Public Works were the > custodians of the Castle and grounds but ownership was in doubt as it had > not been considered Crown lands as it had been since 1306 vested in the > King's name and leased to others by his Royal successors thereafter. > This explanation may have been a ploy by the local authority or the Board > of Works to avoid confrontation with Corcoran's Mineral Works who at the > time controlled access and had in the past erected a greenhouse and planted > vegetables on the grounds and possibly also to avoid responsibility. > Regardless of this Carlow County Heritage Society undertook a major > clean-up of the grounds in 1990, during which we removed 7 large skip loads > of rubbish from the castle grounds. > I am at present trying to track down deeds etc. > The following is extract from my work in progress on Carlow Castle - > > *Shortly before his death in December 1306, the 58 year old Roger le > Bigodhad appointed King Edward 1 as sole heir to all his > * > > * “honours, titles, estates, castles, manors, boroughs, lands, goods and > chattels” * > > *which included, * > > *“The Manor, Castle and borough of Catherlach, with all their appurtenances; > * > > *and the Body of the County with assizes and perquisites”. * > > *This proved to be a fortunate turn of events for future historians because > as soon as the King acquired the Manor and Castle all the Rolls, Court > Records, Writs, Accounts and other material compiled by the Seneschal, > Treasurer, Constable, sheriffs, bailiffs, reeves, receivers and lesser > clerks were transferred to the Tower of London where the originals were > preserved. I believe the archives were transferred to the National Archives > at Kew. * > > *We know that in 1604 King James handed over the remainder of his Carlow > property to Donough O'Brien but the King reserved ownership of the Castle > for himself and his "successors" ?.* >m with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Thanks very much, Ronnie! And my apologies for my delayed response. My wife and I have been traveling and my only access to the internet is in a public library. I'll make a point of going to the Registry of Deeds too. Maurice Sent from my iPad > On Sep 28, 2013, at 4:06 AM, Ronnie Shorten <ronnieshorten@gmail.com> wrote: > > Maurice . The registry of Deeds in Henrietta street is a wonderful place for family history. It is intact and undisturbed for over 300 years. The documents are well preserved there and if your families had land they are probably registered there. I found two different marriage settlements there for great grand parents also. It is a very interesting place to spend a day and the index system is easy to follow. It is a help if you have the names of your ancestors' landlords if they were renting their farms. > About twenty years ago we made a video programme on how to trace your ancestors in Ireland. We had the help of two qualified genealogists on board. There was nothing on the Internet at that stage so it is a bit old fashioned, but it still might be useful. If you send me your address it may be helpful for you. We have it on DVD also and I could post it to you. Obviously there is no charge . It does not sell now it has reached it's sell by date!! Ronnie Shorten. > Sent from my iPad > >> On 26 Sep 2013, at 18:17, Joann Taylor <cts@teleport.com> wrote: >> >> Maurice, >> >> Depending on the kind of records you are looking for, you may find the >> General Register Office research room to be a good place to visit. >> Check out this web page for a bit more info, holdings, fees and an >> address. They are relocating this month, so by the time you get there >> in March, the dust should have settled. >> >> http://www.groireland.ie/ >> >> Joann Taylor >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRL-CARLOW-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRL-CARLOW-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

*[ Note added 2012. * *Abbreviated extract from the Benjamin D' Israeli Inquest Papers on loan to Michael Purcell. * *A copy of this Statement can be supplied on payment to cover cost of postage.]* *Information of William Rourke of Knockbrack in the County of Carlow, Yeoman, taken this 13th Day of January 1805 at Garryhill, Carlow at the dwelling house of Patrick Nowlan then and there lying dead before James Byrne, Esquire, Coroner of Carlow touching the death of Patrick Nowlan.* *William Rourke Saith that he frequently slept with Michael Rourke and Patrick Nowlan late of Garryhill, Farmer, deceased, who were taking care of and Managing a farm on the lands of Ullard, Carlow, that some of their relations had been in possession of about two months ago.* *And Saith that been in bed with the said Patrick Nowlan and Michael Rourke on the night of Friday the 11th day of January 1805 they were awoke by the smoke that was in the house and having got out of bed he put on some his clothes.* *He and Michael Rourke went to the rack, where there were two guns charged and took them down.* *Patrick Nowlan went to the door and opened it, then William heard a shot and Patrick Nowlan returned and said he was killed on which Patrick Nowlan who was naked desired Michael Rourke to put a coat on him which he did.* *Then William Rourke and Michael Rourke went to the door and looked out and saw the head of a man or woman stooped behind a small wall and then William heard a shot fired as if from the place where Patrick Nowlan told him the first shot came from that wounded Patrick Nowlan in the stomach or breast.* *The house been at this time very violently on fire at both ends, they stayed in the house as long as they could, but at length they were obliged to go out, the fire having become very great and most of the roof having fallen in.* *Then William and Michael Rourke and Patrick Nowlan went to the house of Murtha Bryan of Ullard where they remained until day and then Patrick Nowlan was put to bed, very weak from the wounds he received in his breast, side and arm by the shot that was fired at him, he bled a great deal and was throwing blood out of his mouth,he remained there until the next day when he died about 12 or 1 of the Clock.* *The night before the house was set on fire a person by the name of John Murray desired William Rourke to be careful of himself as he might know it was not safe to be sleeping there.* *The said John Murray had been employed as a workman by the farmer tenants of Ullard.* *William Rourke believes the house was maliciously and intentionally set on fire by the farmer Tenants of the Ullard lands or by some person motivated by them.* * And further Saith that two other men were obliged to quit the house, which was entirely burned* *Sworn before me this 13th day of January 1805 [ signed ] James Byrne, Coroner.* *[ signed ] William, his, X, mark, Rourke having first been read to him by James Byrne.*

Mick, the Cheevers family motto as in latin on the Hickey letter was We Subdue Those Who Would Oppose Us meant to correct that before I sent it to you. Regards, Catherine. On Sun, Sep 29, 2013 at 1:37 PM, Michael Purcell <carlowmike@gmail.com>wrote: > In a footnote to the previous posting, "Not Us From Kings But Kings From > Us" Henrietta Hickey added - > "the Cheevers family held lands in Carlow, Wexford and Kildare. They > were of Norman-French extraction whose ancestors came to Ireland with the > forces of the second King Henry who led his army in response to a plea from > Pope Adrian to surpress the barbarous Irishery and restore the Kingdom of > Leinster to the McMurroughs . Knight Roger and Knight Henry de Cheevers of > Devon and Cornwall were granted lands in Leinster. The family > were dispossessed of their lands in 1650 by the English Parliamentarian > Army [ Cromwell ], they were moved to poor land in the West of Ireland. The > family motto in translation is "We Defeat Those Who Would Subdue Us". Some > of the family became members of the Society of Friends [ Quakers ], one of > whom was a prominent Preacher. The family seat in Carlow was situated in > Grangeforth at Tullow". > [ note added in 2012 by Michael Purcell. The Browne-Clayton archive records > that some of the Cheever lands ended up in the ownership of the Browne > family of Browneshill. ] > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > IRL-CARLOW-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

thanks for this, Michael...it was a great lesson. > Sent: Saturday, September 28, 2013 5:08 PM Subject: [IRL-CARLOW] Part 6- NOT WE FROM KINGS BUT KINGS FROM US. > Pat Purcell Papers. > Letter, Genealogical enquiry, Dated, May, 1931. > From: J. Hallam [ ? ], > Threadneedle Street, City of London, England. > To: Pat Purcell, > Town Hall, Carlow, Ireland. > (Continued extracts edited by Michael Purcell from 52 page letter. > Part six of a FAMILY CHRONICLE compiled in 1862 by Henrietta Maria Hickey. > Not many County Families in Carlow and other counties have sustainable > pedigrees, they like to think they have but close examination of their > pedigree chart may reveal a questionable "bastard" relationship to a well > connected family on the British mainland. > Many the commoner with money purchased property in Ireland in poor times > for land prices or was granted land for some service or other. > Their first inclination after settling in Ireland is to claim a blood tie > with a titled or aristocratic family bearing a similar surname, all the > better to lord it over their "gentry" neighbours. > The British resident of noble position is often surprised when contacted > by > their recently hatched Irish "cousin" by the introduction of a dubious > bastard son, daughter or sibling of their own ancestor in order for the > relationship to be acknowledged. > One such story concerning the Carlow Rochfort family has often been > repeated and is worth recalling to memory. > It is said that the first of the Rochforts to settle in Carlow were stone > cleavers, they lived in a straw roof cabin near a quarry in Clogrennan. > A son of this family was taken under the wing of Lady Beth a member > of the Cheevers family of noble stock. She had the boy educated and > practised in the manners of a gentleman to such a measure that the boy > went > to Oxford to complete his education. > One day while on a visit to London he was introduced to a lady of social > standing and presented her with a purple silk kerchief. She was impressed > by the young man and a romantic attachment developed between them. However > her father doubted the young man's social affability and sought to make > inquiry as to his background by sending his trusted manservant to > accompany > the young man to Ireland and report back what he saw. > Travelling to Ireland on the boat the young man confided in the > servant telling him that his Irish family were poor people of low > standing and if the servant would return to his master with a good report > he would in time make the servant rich enough to have his own servants. > The servant agreed but said he would not lie to his master. > They arrived by boat on the river Barrow to the young man's cabin in > Clogrennan and the first sight the servant saw were two goats butting > heads > and the father sitting on a 3 legged stool peeling potatoes with his > finger > nails ( for the Irish peasantry grew long nails to use for peeling > potatoes > ). The servant turned away exclaiming he had seen enough. > He returned to London by the next boat. When he arrived he found that his > master had taken seriously ill and was close to death. > He hurried to his bedside and told him that upon arrival at the young > man's > home in Ireland he was welcomed by not one but two butts ( slang for > butler > ) and saw the family cutlery the like of which he had never seen before in > mansion or palace and there were two large boats for use by the family on > the river that ran alongside the house situated in the countryside. > The father gave his blessing on the marriage, the young man secured the > family wealth and purchased several thousand acres of land at Clogrenne > from the Duke of Ormonde. He built a mansion with 52 rooms with 365 panes > of glass, one for each day of the year and they lived contentedly among > their Irish "aristocratic" neighbours. > I will not put the servant's name to paper for he too settled in Carlow > with his new wealth and impressed all with his acquired gentlemanly ways > whilst proclaiming his family connection to the highest ranks of British > nobility with his pedigree charts on parchment with a mark for his > fancied > bastard grandfather. > Today his descendants trot about Carlow as if the blood of nobility flowed > through their veins. Indeed it was a lady descendant of that same > servant who first told me the story of the Rochforts saying one could tell > from their appearance and manner that they were of ill breeding. > "She knew her own" never was it truer stamped on a persons forehead. > Our family motto " NOT WE FROM KINGS BUT KINGS FROM US" tells us all we > need to know of our own family pedigree. > >

In a footnote to the previous posting, "Not Us From Kings But Kings From Us" Henrietta Hickey added - "the Cheevers family held lands in Carlow, Wexford and Kildare. They were of Norman-French extraction whose ancestors came to Ireland with the forces of the second King Henry who led his army in response to a plea from Pope Adrian to surpress the barbarous Irishery and restore the Kingdom of Leinster to the McMurroughs . Knight Roger and Knight Henry de Cheevers of Devon and Cornwall were granted lands in Leinster. The family were dispossessed of their lands in 1650 by the English Parliamentarian Army [ Cromwell ], they were moved to poor land in the West of Ireland. The family motto in translation is "We Defeat Those Who Would Subdue Us". Some of the family became members of the Society of Friends [ Quakers ], one of whom was a prominent Preacher. The family seat in Carlow was situated in Grangeforth at Tullow". [ note added in 2012 by Michael Purcell. The Browne-Clayton archive records that some of the Cheever lands ended up in the ownership of the Browne family of Browneshill. ]

thanks Jean, another version of this story claims it was a son of the young man who bought the land at Clogrennane a generation later, pity she did not state the year. On 28 September 2013 22:37, Jean Gobel <jcgobel@msn.com> wrote: > Love the story! Thanks! > Jean Gobel > > -----Original Message----- > From: Michael Purcell > Sent: Saturday, September 28, 2013 2:08 PM > To: irl-carlow@rootsweb.com > Subject: [IRL-CARLOW] Part 6- NOT WE FROM KINGS BUT KINGS FROM US. > > Pat Purcell Papers. > Letter, Genealogical enquiry, Dated, May, 1931. > From: J. Hallam [ ? ], > Threadneedle Street, City of London, England. > To: Pat Purcell, > Town Hall, Carlow, Ireland. > (Continued extracts edited by Michael Purcell from 52 page letter. > Part six of a FAMILY CHRONICLE compiled in 1862 by Henrietta Maria Hickey. > Not many County Families in Carlow and other counties have sustainable > pedigrees, they like to think they have but close examination of their > pedigree chart may reveal a questionable "bastard" relationship to a well > connected family on the British mainland. > Many the commoner with money purchased property in Ireland in poor times > for land prices or was granted land for some service or other. > Their first inclination after settling in Ireland is to claim a blood tie > with a titled or aristocratic family bearing a similar surname, all the > better to lord it over their "gentry" neighbours. > The British resident of noble position is often surprised when contacted by > their recently hatched Irish "cousin" by the introduction of a dubious > bastard son, daughter or sibling of their own ancestor in order for the > relationship to be acknowledged. > One such story concerning the Carlow Rochfort family has often been > repeated and is worth recalling to memory. > It is said that the first of the Rochforts to settle in Carlow were stone > cleavers, they lived in a straw roof cabin near a quarry in Clogrennan. > A son of this family was taken under the wing of Lady Beth a member > of the Cheevers family of noble stock. She had the boy educated and > practised in the manners of a gentleman to such a measure that the boy went > to Oxford to complete his education. > One day while on a visit to London he was introduced to a lady of social > standing and presented her with a purple silk kerchief. She was impressed > by the young man and a romantic attachment developed between them. However > her father doubted the young man's social affability and sought to make > inquiry as to his background by sending his trusted manservant to accompany > the young man to Ireland and report back what he saw. > Travelling to Ireland on the boat the young man confided in the > servant telling him that his Irish family were poor people of low > standing and if the servant would return to his master with a good report > he would in time make the servant rich enough to have his own servants. > The servant agreed but said he would not lie to his master. > They arrived by boat on the river Barrow to the young man's cabin in > Clogrennan and the first sight the servant saw were two goats butting heads > and the father sitting on a 3 legged stool peeling potatoes with his finger > nails ( for the Irish peasantry grew long nails to use for peeling potatoes > ). The servant turned away exclaiming he had seen enough. > He returned to London by the next boat. When he arrived he found that his > master had taken seriously ill and was close to death. > He hurried to his bedside and told him that upon arrival at the young man's > home in Ireland he was welcomed by not one but two butts ( slang for butler > ) and saw the family cutlery the like of which he had never seen before in > mansion or palace and there were two large boats for use by the family on > the river that ran alongside the house situated in the countryside. > The father gave his blessing on the marriage, the young man secured the > family wealth and purchased several thousand acres of land at Clogrenne > from the Duke of Ormonde. He built a mansion with 52 rooms with 365 panes > of glass, one for each day of the year and they lived contentedly among > their Irish "aristocratic" neighbours. > I will not put the servant's name to paper for he too settled in Carlow > with his new wealth and impressed all with his acquired gentlemanly ways > whilst proclaiming his family connection to the highest ranks of British > nobility with his pedigree charts on parchment with a mark for his fancied > bastard grandfather. > Today his descendants trot about Carlow as if the blood of nobility flowed > through their veins. Indeed it was a lady descendant of that same > servant who first told me the story of the Rochforts saying one could tell > from their appearance and manner that they were of ill breeding. > "She knew her own" never was it truer stamped on a persons forehead. > Our family motto " NOT WE FROM KINGS BUT KINGS FROM US" tells us all we > need to know of our own family pedigree. > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > IRL-CARLOW-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > IRL-CARLOW-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Michael there is a book in that. > Date: Sun, 29 Sep 2013 09:01:49 +0100 > From: carlowmike@gmail.com > To: irl-carlow@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [IRL-CARLOW] Part 6- NOT WE FROM KINGS BUT KINGS FROM US. > > thanks Jean, another version of this story claims it was a son of the > young man who bought the land at Clogrennane a generation later, pity she > did not state the year. > > > On 28 September 2013 22:37, Jean Gobel <jcgobel@msn.com> wrote: > > > Love the story! Thanks! > > Jean Gobel > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Michael Purcell > > Sent: Saturday, September 28, 2013 2:08 PM > > To: irl-carlow@rootsweb.com > > Subject: [IRL-CARLOW] Part 6- NOT WE FROM KINGS BUT KINGS FROM US. > > > > Pat Purcell Papers. > > Letter, Genealogical enquiry, Dated, May, 1931. > > From: J. Hallam [ ? ], > > Threadneedle Street, City of London, England. > > To: Pat Purcell, > > Town Hall, Carlow, Ireland. > > (Continued extracts edited by Michael Purcell from 52 page letter. > > Part six of a FAMILY CHRONICLE compiled in 1862 by Henrietta Maria Hickey. > > Not many County Families in Carlow and other counties have sustainable > > pedigrees, they like to think they have but close examination of their > > pedigree chart may reveal a questionable "bastard" relationship to a well > > connected family on the British mainland. > > Many the commoner with money purchased property in Ireland in poor times > > for land prices or was granted land for some service or other. > > Their first inclination after settling in Ireland is to claim a blood tie > > with a titled or aristocratic family bearing a similar surname, all the > > better to lord it over their "gentry" neighbours. > > The British resident of noble position is often surprised when contacted by > > their recently hatched Irish "cousin" by the introduction of a dubious > > bastard son, daughter or sibling of their own ancestor in order for the > > relationship to be acknowledged. > > One such story concerning the Carlow Rochfort family has often been > > repeated and is worth recalling to memory. > > It is said that the first of the Rochforts to settle in Carlow were stone > > cleavers, they lived in a straw roof cabin near a quarry in Clogrennan. > > A son of this family was taken under the wing of Lady Beth a member > > of the Cheevers family of noble stock. She had the boy educated and > > practised in the manners of a gentleman to such a measure that the boy went > > to Oxford to complete his education. > > One day while on a visit to London he was introduced to a lady of social > > standing and presented her with a purple silk kerchief. She was impressed > > by the young man and a romantic attachment developed between them. However > > her father doubted the young man's social affability and sought to make > > inquiry as to his background by sending his trusted manservant to accompany > > the young man to Ireland and report back what he saw. > > Travelling to Ireland on the boat the young man confided in the > > servant telling him that his Irish family were poor people of low > > standing and if the servant would return to his master with a good report > > he would in time make the servant rich enough to have his own servants. > > The servant agreed but said he would not lie to his master. > > They arrived by boat on the river Barrow to the young man's cabin in > > Clogrennan and the first sight the servant saw were two goats butting heads > > and the father sitting on a 3 legged stool peeling potatoes with his finger > > nails ( for the Irish peasantry grew long nails to use for peeling potatoes > > ). The servant turned away exclaiming he had seen enough. > > He returned to London by the next boat. When he arrived he found that his > > master had taken seriously ill and was close to death. > > He hurried to his bedside and told him that upon arrival at the young man's > > home in Ireland he was welcomed by not one but two butts ( slang for butler > > ) and saw the family cutlery the like of which he had never seen before in > > mansion or palace and there were two large boats for use by the family on > > the river that ran alongside the house situated in the countryside. > > The father gave his blessing on the marriage, the young man secured the > > family wealth and purchased several thousand acres of land at Clogrenne > > from the Duke of Ormonde. He built a mansion with 52 rooms with 365 panes > > of glass, one for each day of the year and they lived contentedly among > > their Irish "aristocratic" neighbours. > > I will not put the servant's name to paper for he too settled in Carlow > > with his new wealth and impressed all with his acquired gentlemanly ways > > whilst proclaiming his family connection to the highest ranks of British > > nobility with his pedigree charts on parchment with a mark for his fancied > > bastard grandfather. > > Today his descendants trot about Carlow as if the blood of nobility flowed > > through their veins. Indeed it was a lady descendant of that same > > servant who first told me the story of the Rochforts saying one could tell > > from their appearance and manner that they were of ill breeding. > > "She knew her own" never was it truer stamped on a persons forehead. > > Our family motto " NOT WE FROM KINGS BUT KINGS FROM US" tells us all we > > need to know of our own family pedigree. > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > IRL-CARLOW-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > IRL-CARLOW-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRL-CARLOW-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Pat Purcell Papers. Letter, Genealogical enquiry, Dated, May, 1931. From: J. Hallam [ ? ], Threadneedle Street, City of London, England. To: Pat Purcell, Town Hall, Carlow, Ireland. (Continued extracts edited by Michael Purcell from 52 page letter. Part six of a FAMILY CHRONICLE compiled in 1862 by Henrietta Maria Hickey. Not many County Families in Carlow and other counties have sustainable pedigrees, they like to think they have but close examination of their pedigree chart may reveal a questionable "bastard" relationship to a well connected family on the British mainland. Many the commoner with money purchased property in Ireland in poor times for land prices or was granted land for some service or other. Their first inclination after settling in Ireland is to claim a blood tie with a titled or aristocratic family bearing a similar surname, all the better to lord it over their "gentry" neighbours. The British resident of noble position is often surprised when contacted by their recently hatched Irish "cousin" by the introduction of a dubious bastard son, daughter or sibling of their own ancestor in order for the relationship to be acknowledged. One such story concerning the Carlow Rochfort family has often been repeated and is worth recalling to memory. It is said that the first of the Rochforts to settle in Carlow were stone cleavers, they lived in a straw roof cabin near a quarry in Clogrennan. A son of this family was taken under the wing of Lady Beth a member of the Cheevers family of noble stock. She had the boy educated and practised in the manners of a gentleman to such a measure that the boy went to Oxford to complete his education. One day while on a visit to London he was introduced to a lady of social standing and presented her with a purple silk kerchief. She was impressed by the young man and a romantic attachment developed between them. However her father doubted the young man's social affability and sought to make inquiry as to his background by sending his trusted manservant to accompany the young man to Ireland and report back what he saw. Travelling to Ireland on the boat the young man confided in the servant telling him that his Irish family were poor people of low standing and if the servant would return to his master with a good report he would in time make the servant rich enough to have his own servants. The servant agreed but said he would not lie to his master. They arrived by boat on the river Barrow to the young man's cabin in Clogrennan and the first sight the servant saw were two goats butting heads and the father sitting on a 3 legged stool peeling potatoes with his finger nails ( for the Irish peasantry grew long nails to use for peeling potatoes ). The servant turned away exclaiming he had seen enough. He returned to London by the next boat. When he arrived he found that his master had taken seriously ill and was close to death. He hurried to his bedside and told him that upon arrival at the young man's home in Ireland he was welcomed by not one but two butts ( slang for butler ) and saw the family cutlery the like of which he had never seen before in mansion or palace and there were two large boats for use by the family on the river that ran alongside the house situated in the countryside. The father gave his blessing on the marriage, the young man secured the family wealth and purchased several thousand acres of land at Clogrenne from the Duke of Ormonde. He built a mansion with 52 rooms with 365 panes of glass, one for each day of the year and they lived contentedly among their Irish "aristocratic" neighbours. I will not put the servant's name to paper for he too settled in Carlow with his new wealth and impressed all with his acquired gentlemanly ways whilst proclaiming his family connection to the highest ranks of British nobility with his pedigree charts on parchment with a mark for his fancied bastard grandfather. Today his descendants trot about Carlow as if the blood of nobility flowed through their veins. Indeed it was a lady descendant of that same servant who first told me the story of the Rochforts saying one could tell from their appearance and manner that they were of ill breeding. "She knew her own" never was it truer stamped on a persons forehead. Our family motto " NOT WE FROM KINGS BUT KINGS FROM US" tells us all we need to know of our own family pedigree.

HiWondering does anyone have a copy of the above transcriptions from Reynold Fieldcrestthat is willing to scan me a copy?? ThankyouTreacy

Thanks Tom , good observation but in the 1979 a group of us approached the then Carlow County Manager regarding maintenance of and accessibility to the Castle, we were informed that the Office of Public Works were the custodians of the Castle and grounds but ownership was in doubt as it had not been considered Crown lands as it had been since 1306 vested in the King's name and leased to others by his Royal successors thereafter. This explanation may have been a ploy by the local authority or the Board of Works to avoid confrontation with Corcoran's Mineral Works who at the time controlled access and had in the past erected a greenhouse and planted vegetables on the grounds and possibly also to avoid responsibility. Regardless of this Carlow County Heritage Society undertook a major clean-up of the grounds in 1990, during which we removed 7 large skip loads of rubbish from the castle grounds. I am at present trying to track down deeds etc. The following is extract from my work in progress on Carlow Castle - *Shortly before his death in December 1306, the 58 year old Roger le Bigodhad appointed King Edward 1 as sole heir to all his * * “honours, titles, estates, castles, manors, boroughs, lands, goods and chattels” * *which included, * *“The Manor, Castle and borough of Catherlach, with all their appurtenances; * *and the Body of the County with assizes and perquisites”. * *This proved to be a fortunate turn of events for future historians because as soon as the King acquired the Manor and Castle all the Rolls, Court Records, Writs, Accounts and other material compiled by the Seneschal, Treasurer, Constable, sheriffs, bailiffs, reeves, receivers and lesser clerks were transferred to the Tower of London where the originals were preserved. I believe the archives were transferred to the National Archives at Kew. * *We know that in 1604 King James handed over the remainder of his Carlow property to Donough O'Brien but the King reserved ownership of the Castle for himself and his "successors" ?.* On 26 September 2013 04:30, Tom LaPorte <tlaporte@mymts.net> wrote: > After 1922 and the Crown Land redistribution if the castle was Crown land > wouldn't it have been assigned by the Irish Free State to the local > authority? > > > Date: Wed, 25 Sep 2013 21:03:02 +0100 > > From: carlowmike@gmail.com > > To: irl-carlow@rootsweb.com > > Subject: [IRL-CARLOW] Ownership of Carlow Castle > > > > Who are the present-day owners of Carlow Castle ?, > > is it possible that the Crown retains ownership ? > > > > > > > > According to a Lease from King James dated 1604 Donough O' Brien 4th > Earl > > Thomond was to hold - > > > > * estate in fee-simple for ever of the Manor of Catherlogh, at the > yearly > > rent of £23. Reserving and excepting out of the said grant the Castle of > > Catherlogh. The said Donough and his son and the longer liver of them to > > have the Constableship of the said Castle of Catherlogh, with all the > > entertainments as Robert and William Hartpole lately enjoyed*. > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > IRL-CARLOW-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > IRL-CARLOW-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Love the story! Thanks! Jean Gobel -----Original Message----- From: Michael Purcell Sent: Saturday, September 28, 2013 2:08 PM To: irl-carlow@rootsweb.com Subject: [IRL-CARLOW] Part 6- NOT WE FROM KINGS BUT KINGS FROM US. Pat Purcell Papers. Letter, Genealogical enquiry, Dated, May, 1931. From: J. Hallam [ ? ], Threadneedle Street, City of London, England. To: Pat Purcell, Town Hall, Carlow, Ireland. (Continued extracts edited by Michael Purcell from 52 page letter. Part six of a FAMILY CHRONICLE compiled in 1862 by Henrietta Maria Hickey. Not many County Families in Carlow and other counties have sustainable pedigrees, they like to think they have but close examination of their pedigree chart may reveal a questionable "bastard" relationship to a well connected family on the British mainland. Many the commoner with money purchased property in Ireland in poor times for land prices or was granted land for some service or other. Their first inclination after settling in Ireland is to claim a blood tie with a titled or aristocratic family bearing a similar surname, all the better to lord it over their "gentry" neighbours. The British resident of noble position is often surprised when contacted by their recently hatched Irish "cousin" by the introduction of a dubious bastard son, daughter or sibling of their own ancestor in order for the relationship to be acknowledged. One such story concerning the Carlow Rochfort family has often been repeated and is worth recalling to memory. It is said that the first of the Rochforts to settle in Carlow were stone cleavers, they lived in a straw roof cabin near a quarry in Clogrennan. A son of this family was taken under the wing of Lady Beth a member of the Cheevers family of noble stock. She had the boy educated and practised in the manners of a gentleman to such a measure that the boy went to Oxford to complete his education. One day while on a visit to London he was introduced to a lady of social standing and presented her with a purple silk kerchief. She was impressed by the young man and a romantic attachment developed between them. However her father doubted the young man's social affability and sought to make inquiry as to his background by sending his trusted manservant to accompany the young man to Ireland and report back what he saw. Travelling to Ireland on the boat the young man confided in the servant telling him that his Irish family were poor people of low standing and if the servant would return to his master with a good report he would in time make the servant rich enough to have his own servants. The servant agreed but said he would not lie to his master. They arrived by boat on the river Barrow to the young man's cabin in Clogrennan and the first sight the servant saw were two goats butting heads and the father sitting on a 3 legged stool peeling potatoes with his finger nails ( for the Irish peasantry grew long nails to use for peeling potatoes ). The servant turned away exclaiming he had seen enough. He returned to London by the next boat. When he arrived he found that his master had taken seriously ill and was close to death. He hurried to his bedside and told him that upon arrival at the young man's home in Ireland he was welcomed by not one but two butts ( slang for butler ) and saw the family cutlery the like of which he had never seen before in mansion or palace and there were two large boats for use by the family on the river that ran alongside the house situated in the countryside. The father gave his blessing on the marriage, the young man secured the family wealth and purchased several thousand acres of land at Clogrenne from the Duke of Ormonde. He built a mansion with 52 rooms with 365 panes of glass, one for each day of the year and they lived contentedly among their Irish "aristocratic" neighbours. I will not put the servant's name to paper for he too settled in Carlow with his new wealth and impressed all with his acquired gentlemanly ways whilst proclaiming his family connection to the highest ranks of British nobility with his pedigree charts on parchment with a mark for his fancied bastard grandfather. Today his descendants trot about Carlow as if the blood of nobility flowed through their veins. Indeed it was a lady descendant of that same servant who first told me the story of the Rochforts saying one could tell from their appearance and manner that they were of ill breeding. "She knew her own" never was it truer stamped on a persons forehead. Our family motto " NOT WE FROM KINGS BUT KINGS FROM US" tells us all we need to know of our own family pedigree. ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRL-CARLOW-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Maurice . The registry of Deeds in Henrietta street is a wonderful place for family history. It is intact and undisturbed for over 300 years. The documents are well preserved there and if your families had land they are probably registered there. I found two different marriage settlements there for great grand parents also. It is a very interesting place to spend a day and the index system is easy to follow. It is a help if you have the names of your ancestors' landlords if they were renting their farms. About twenty years ago we made a video programme on how to trace your ancestors in Ireland. We had the help of two qualified genealogists on board. There was nothing on the Internet at that stage so it is a bit old fashioned, but it still might be useful. If you send me your address it may be helpful for you. We have it on DVD also and I could post it to you. Obviously there is no charge . It does not sell now it has reached it's sell by date!! Ronnie Shorten. Sent from my iPad On 26 Sep 2013, at 18:17, Joann Taylor <cts@teleport.com> wrote: > Maurice, > > Depending on the kind of records you are looking for, you may find the > General Register Office research room to be a good place to visit. > Check out this web page for a bit more info, holdings, fees and an > address. They are relocating this month, so by the time you get there > in March, the dust should have settled. > > http://www.groireland.ie/ > > Joann Taylor > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRL-CARLOW-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Very true, Bill. Thanks for your input. Jean -----Original Message----- From: William Leacock Sent: Friday, September 27, 2013 1:10 AM To: Carlow Subject: [IRL-CARLOW] Irish Surname Problem re irish Surname problem. Surname spelling variances is not a unique Irish problem, with my own name I have seen several spelling variances in Ireland and England, and now that I live in the US, I have seen many variances in the names of others. I have studied the Church Records in Castlecomer and seen my family name recorded several ways, but I have supporting evidence from other sources to stick to one spelling. Bear in mind that 100 plus years ago, many people could not read or write, so when they gave their name to someone the listener would write what they think they heard. So for example, when they landed at Ellis Island the name would be recorded as it sounded to the recorder, and considering some of the accent variances, the name could be interpreted differently by the listener who may not have been familiar with the brogue, of the speaker, or some of the complicated variances of S and Z or the V and W in many European names. Subsequently when their children went to school, there may be anot! her variance added by the teacher. Regards Bill Leacock ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRL-CARLOW-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

re irish Surname problem. Surname spelling variances is not a unique Irish problem, with my own name I have seen several spelling variances in Ireland and England, and now that I live in the US, I have seen many variances in the names of others. I have studied the Church Records in Castlecomer and seen my family name recorded several ways, but I have supporting evidence from other sources to stick to one spelling. Bear in mind that 100 plus years ago, many people could not read or write, so when they gave their name to someone the listener would write what they think they heard. So for example, when they landed at Ellis Island the name would be recorded as it sounded to the recorder, and considering some of the accent variances, the name could be interpreted differently by the listener who may not have been familiar with the brogue, of the speaker, or some of the complicated variances of S and Z or the V and W in many European names. Subsequently when their children went to school, there may be another variance added by the teacher. Regards Bill Leacock

Thank you, Brian. I'll keep digging deeper. Jean -----Original Message----- From: Brian Walsh Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2013 3:55 PM To: irl-carlow@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [IRL-CARLOW] Irish surname problem My research with the Dunleckney Parish Registers includes the following types of naming variances; Shaugnessy, Haugney, Augney; Magrath, Magra; Redmond, Reddy; McDonald, O'Donald; Brien, Bryan; Finlon, Fenlon, Finnelon; Headon, Hayden; Kavanaugh, Kavana, Cavana; Bolger, Bulger;Kelly, Kealy; Tracey, Treacy etc., etc.,. So it is not inconceivable that O' Mara and Maher may be the same. However, I have not been able to cross-reference those names in my Dunleckney transcription experience as I have those above. Brian ________________________________ From: Jean Gobel <jcgobel@msn.com> To: IRL-CARLOW <IRL-CARLOW-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2013 5:10 PM Subject: [IRL-CARLOW] Irish surname problem Hello all, This isn't a Carlow problem, but whom to ask but the best of the Irish <gr> I have a problem with one of my ancestor's married surname. Margaret Dowling born Ireland, married a Patrick O'Mara about 1861 in Ottawa, LaSalle County, Illinois (I have not found the record). She died there in 1885 at age 39, after the birth of her eleventh child. No obit has been found, but her tombstone (reading Margaret Dowling, wife of Patrick O'Mara) stands with my other Dowling relatives. This family also appears on records as Omeara. That I can understand. My deceased mother, however, recalled them as her Maher relatives. There is a record in Ottawa of a Margaret Dowling marriage to Patrick Maher on 19 May 1861. One probable Maher cousin cites the same death date as the O'Mara date of 1885. Some of the eleven O'Mara children appear in various records as Maher. I'm confused. Is O'Mara commonly interpreted or referred to as Maher? I continue to look down children's lines for answers, but am I following incorrect people? Any comments appreciated. Jean Gobel Lakewood, Washington, USA ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRL-CARLOW-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRL-CARLOW-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

My research with the Dunleckney Parish Registers includes the following types of naming variances; Shaugnessy, Haugney, Augney; Magrath, Magra; Redmond, Reddy; McDonald, O'Donald; Brien, Bryan; Finlon, Fenlon, Finnelon; Headon, Hayden; Kavanaugh, Kavana, Cavana; Bolger, Bulger;Kelly, Kealy; Tracey, Treacy etc., etc.,. So it is not inconceivable that O' Mara and Maher may be the same. However, I have not been able to cross-reference those names in my Dunleckney transcription experience as I have those above. Brian ________________________________ From: Jean Gobel <jcgobel@msn.com> To: IRL-CARLOW <IRL-CARLOW-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2013 5:10 PM Subject: [IRL-CARLOW] Irish surname problem Hello all, This isn't a Carlow problem, but whom to ask but the best of the Irish <gr> I have a problem with one of my ancestor's married surname.  Margaret Dowling born Ireland, married a Patrick O'Mara about 1861 in Ottawa, LaSalle County, Illinois (I have not found the record).  She died there in 1885 at age 39, after the birth of her eleventh child.  No obit has been found, but her tombstone (reading Margaret Dowling, wife of Patrick O'Mara) stands with my other Dowling relatives.  This family also appears on records as Omeara. That I can understand.  My deceased mother, however, recalled them as her Maher relatives.  There is a record in Ottawa of a Margaret Dowling marriage to Patrick Maher on 19 May 1861. One probable Maher cousin cites the same death date as the O'Mara date of 1885.  Some of the eleven O'Mara children appear in various records as Maher. I'm confused.  Is O'Mara commonly interpreted or referred to as Maher?  I continue to look down children's lines for answers, but am I following incorrect people?  Any comments appreciated. Jean Gobel Lakewood, Washington, USA ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRL-CARLOW-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Thank you, Marilyn. Do you have to arrange an appointment with the genealogist at the National Archives? I know of no Protestant relatives after 1800, but one never knows. Maurice -----Original Message----- From: lppm2003 <lppm2003@yahoo.ca> To: irl-carlow <irl-carlow@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thu, Sep 26, 2013 1:52 pm Subject: Re: [IRL-CARLOW] Need advice on a visit to Ireland Maurice, We were in Dublin in May and visited the National Archives. They have a genealogist on staff that will meet with you and give advice. We found it quite helpful. We also visited the National Library where we got into some estate records and also some newspapers. You'll need a readers ticket for each place and you can get them on arrival. Remember to bring your passport for identification. Another place, if you have Protestant ancestors, is the Representative Church Body of the Church of Ireland - Church of Ireland House, Church Avenue, Rathmines, Dublin 6. They have many parish registers. Marilyn ________________________________ From: "mauricebursey@aol.com" <mauricebursey@aol.com> To: irl-carlow@rootsweb.com Sent: Thursday, September 26, 2013 11:27:28 AM Subject: Re: [IRL-CARLOW] Need advice on a visit to Ireland Joann, Thank you! That is a place I'd not thought about. Maurice -----Original Message----- From: Joann Taylor <cts@teleport.com> To: irl-carlow <irl-carlow@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thu, Sep 26, 2013 1:18 pm Subject: Re: [IRL-CARLOW] Need advice on a visit to Ireland Maurice, Depending on the kind of records you are looking for, you may find the General Register Office research room to be a good place to visit. Check out this web page for a bit more info, holdings, fees and an address. They are relocating this month, so by the time you get there in March, the dust should have settled. http://www.groireland.ie/ Joann Taylor ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRL-CARLOW-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRL-CARLOW-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRL-CARLOW-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message