Thanks Jim for the facts. I've queried my half-dozen Scottish friends on this issue, and the response is mixed. For example: One person, actually English though living in Edinburgh, said that some Scots could be offended. Another actual Scot answered that "Scotch-Irish" is "not offensive but Scots- Irish definitely preferred". Another Edinburgh inhabitant replied, "I recall that Scottish people do not like to be called Scotch, but the term Scotch-Irish I have never heard of before". Anyway, I don't get the impression that today's inhabitants of Scotland are such barbarians that "there are no two ways with the Scots, call them Scotch and they'll hand you your head". Surely there must be Scots listening in here who could weigh in on this conversation. I'd like to know if the problem with the word "Scotch" has to do with the English. Or does the term simply sound silly? Or does our American usage ignite the impression that we just don't care about others' established culture? Or what? David On Feb 13, 2007, at 11:51 PM, James wrote: > Jim at Syracuse, i throughly enjoyed your article. James of > Lethbridge > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "jim at syracuse" <j.j.carroll@earthlink.net> > To: <Irl-Antrim@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 9:37 AM > Subject: [IRL-ANTRIM] Scotch-Irish - an insult, hardly! > > >> The Scotch-Irish - an insult, hardly! >> >> To call them Scotch-Irish may be an unacceptable to some Scots, >> and it is >> an amusing controversy, but the term is quite acceptable where the >> many >> listers hail from. "Scotch-Irish" found its way into the lexicon a >> very >> long time ago. Even though the term is an Americanism, and not >> generally >> known in Scotland and Ireland, it has been in general use since >> the 18th >> century. But it goes back even further. >> >> Writing in 1573 good queen Elizabeth (yes, I know - she is hardly >> a Scot!) >> used the term Scotch-Irish and nobody raised any objection, except >> perhaps >> Sorley Boy - but given the context perhaps his objections were a bit >> muted. Beth said, "We are given to understand that a nobleman named >> 'Sorley Boy' [McDonald] and others, who be of the Scotch-Irish >> race, and >> some of the wild Irish, at this time are content to acknowledge >> our true >> and mere right to the countrie of Ulster and the crowne of Ireland." >> >> Good Queen Liz then offered the right, ownership, and the >> inheritance of >> the land ".upon the taking of an oath of allegiance to any meer >> Irish, or >> Scotch-Irish, or other strangers." >> >> But that was only an English Queen and she should be excused her >> transgressions, except for the fact that the late Professor James G. >> Leyburn located in the 1675 register of the University of Glasgow >> records >> and enrollment of one Francis Makemie from Ramelton. It included a >> notation that he was "Scoto-Hibernicus." That is, of course, >> Scotch-Irish. >> This Franciscus Makemius was later to emigrate to North America >> where he >> founded the Presbyterian Church on that continent, and organized >> the first >> Presbytery in Philadelphia in 1706. >> >> By the way, the last time I googled Glasgow, it was still in >> Scotland. >> >> The Rev. Cotton Mather who received his Doctor of Divinity in 1710 >> from >> the University of Glasgow was a leading clergyman in the American >> colonies. In 1706 he wrote, " I write letters unto diverse persons of >> Honour both in Scotland and in England; to procure Settlements of >> good >> Scotch Colonies, to the Northwest of us." >> >> For a little more history, during this formative period of American >> colonies the term "Scotch-Irish" was little used. This was not >> because it >> was felt to be disparaging, but rather the preferred term for >> those that >> originally emigrated was "Irish." Most of these immigrants were >> originally >> Ulstermen, and between 1717 and the Revolutionary War more than a >> quarter >> million from Ulster came to America. And a majority were >> Presbyterians and >> other dissenters. Even during the Revolutionary War they referred to >> themselves as Irish. And the term stuck until the mid-19th century >> when >> the poorer and principally illiterate elements arrived, primarily >> Roman >> Catholics. >> >> This flood of Irish escaping the Famine was descending upon what >> was then >> a Protestant county, much like Ulster. Prejudice against all >> foreigners >> was rampant, not so much on a sectarian basis, but because these >> people >> would hire out at near slave wages. Like much of Ulster, the >> antipathy was >> generated at the lower class, that laboring mass that competed for >> jobs. >> It was at this time that the descendants of the original Irish >> settlers, >> most from Ulster and a majority were Protestant, sought ways to >> distinguish themselves from the newcomers - the "shanty Irish" or bog >> trotters. So the compound name came into being - that cant phrase, a >> shibboleth, a mongrel absurdity, and even the Scotch-Irish Society of >> America has been described as a humbug. >> >> But a good shot of Glenfiddich Ancient Reserve or even some 20 >> year old >> Black Bush will do wonders and might lighten one up just a little >> bit. >> That is the true meaning of Scotch-Irish. Myself, I prefer a pint of >> Smiticks. >> >> j.j.carroll@earthlink.net >> > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---------- > > >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> IRL-ANTRIM-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---------- > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.411 / Virus Database: 268.17.37/682 - Release Date: > 2/12/2007 > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRL-ANTRIM- > request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message >

Then it's settled. We'll ship the offenders to Texas. David will drink them under the table, and I'll finish them off by using them as shark bait in the Gulf...lol... Cliff. Johnston "May the best you've ever seen, Be the worst you'll ever see;" from A Scots Toast by Allan Ramsay ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Bartley" <dbartley@eos.net> To: <irl-antrim@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 7:25 AM Subject: Re: [IRL-ANTRIM] Scotch-Irish - an insult, hardly! > Thanks Jim for the facts. > > I've queried my half-dozen Scottish friends on this issue, and the > response is mixed. For example: One person, actually English though > living in Edinburgh, said that some Scots could be offended. Another > actual Scot answered that "Scotch-Irish" is "not offensive but Scots- > Irish definitely preferred". Another Edinburgh inhabitant replied, > "I recall that Scottish people do not like to be called Scotch, but > the term Scotch-Irish I have never heard of before". Anyway, I don't > get the impression that today's inhabitants of Scotland are such > barbarians that "there are no two ways with the Scots, call them > Scotch and they'll hand you your head". > > Surely there must be Scots listening in here who could weigh in on > this conversation. I'd like to know if the problem with the word > "Scotch" has to do with the English. Or does the term simply sound > silly? Or does our American usage ignite the impression that we just > don't care about others' established culture? Or what? > > David > >

Ok I finally have to put in my 2 cents worth. I was born and brought up in Scotland and as far as I know Scotch is an adjective as in Scotch whisky (whiskey is Irish) and Scotch broth and Scots or Scottish are nouns as in the name of the people. Therefore the term Scotch-Irish is quite acceptable as it is an adjective modifying Irish. I do, however, correct people who call me Scotch, politely, not by "handing them their head". Lets get back to finding all those elusive Scots who lived in Ireland no matter what they were called. Liz Carter