here here, oh but i could but find peter kyle who drowned 1873 ,times running out regards liz

Ok I finally have to put in my 2 cents worth. I was born and brought up in Scotland and as far as I know Scotch is an adjective as in Scotch whisky (whiskey is Irish) and Scotch broth and Scots or Scottish are nouns as in the name of the people. Therefore the term Scotch-Irish is quite acceptable as it is an adjective modifying Irish. I do, however, correct people who call me Scotch, politely, not by "handing them their head". Lets get back to finding all those elusive Scots who lived in Ireland no matter what they were called. Liz Carter

Deb and Peggy [and Mike as well], Also, maybe you are familiar with a possibly relevant Freeholders List - Deputy Check Book for County Antrim, 1776, which you can see here: http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f277/davidbartley/Free1776Antrim.gif In addition to Robert Barclay there are: Isaac Loggan, Robert Johnston, and Robert Boyd. David On Feb 14, 2007, at 10:16 AM, Peggy Gordon wrote: > > Hi Deb, > I would be interested as well as my James Johnston is from Co. > Antrim, as > per his death registration. Don;t have more information than that, > and I > sometimes wonder if he had a prior marriage than the one to > Margaret Jane > Groves. > Thanks > Peggy > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <OLeoghain@aol.com> > To: <irl-antrim@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 6:48 AM > Subject: [IRL-ANTRIM] Johnstons > > >> Cliff, I just returned from County Antrim - Broughshane and its >> environs > to >> be specific, and there are Johnstons galore in the 1st Broughshane >> Presbyterian Church yard. Quite a few in Ahoghill, too. I >> photographed > some of them as my >> Marth Logan married James Johnston from Antrim. >> When I get the film back, will post the pictures. >> Deb Logan >> Pittsburgh >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > IRL-ANTRIM-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---------- > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRL-ANTRIM- > request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message >

Deb, Could you post what you know of your early Logans? A 1775 Thomas Bartley married a Margaret Logan, daughter of Thomas Logan (b. ABT 1748). A possible source for the Bartleys is Lissnahilt, which lies just south of your Broughshane. More details at: Bartleys or http://wc.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?op=GET&db=:3239174&id=I626410423 Did your family use the spelling you've adopted? Thanks, David On Feb 14, 2007, at 9:48 AM, OLeoghain@aol.com wrote: > Cliff, I just returned from County Antrim - Broughshane and its > environs to > be specific, and there are Johnstons galore in the 1st Broughshane > Presbyterian Church yard. Quite a few in Ahoghill, too. I > photographed some of them as my > Marth Logan married James Johnston from Antrim. > When I get the film back, will post the pictures. > Deb Logan > Pittsburgh > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRL-ANTRIM- > request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message >

My grandfather was born in Dundee and used to roar in his wonderful Scottish brrrrr, "scotch is a drrrrrink! We are Scots!" Connie Shaw

Try my web site on the following link. I have index to births from 1864, index to deaths from 1864 & index to marriages from 1845 on all HAWTHORN(E)'s in Ireland. I also have 1851 CENSUS info homepage.ntlworld.com/derek.hawthorne NOTE - You may have to copy and paste the link into your browser Good luck Derek Hawthorne ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ulster3" <ulster3@gmail.com> To: <IRL-ANTRIM@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 10:20 PM Subject: [IRL-ANTRIM] Hawthornes - help with research > Hello, > > I am trying to locate information on a relative from Antrim or possibly > Down. > > My gg-grandafther William John Hawthorne Sr. (married to Elizabeth Bell in > 1880, Lisburn) and his father James Hawthorne. > > I am wondering how I might go about getting William's birth certificate > without knowing his mother's first or last name. I would like to obtain > his > father James and mother's marriage certificate but I have been unable to > unearth any definitive source for his mother's identity. > > There seem to be a surplus of James and Williams running around Antrim Co. > > Any suggestions. Thanks in advance. > > Eireann > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > IRL-ANTRIM-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Cliff, I just returned from County Antrim - Broughshane and its environs to be specific, and there are Johnstons galore in the 1st Broughshane Presbyterian Church yard. Quite a few in Ahoghill, too. I photographed some of them as my Marth Logan married James Johnston from Antrim. When I get the film back, will post the pictures. Deb Logan Pittsburgh

Deb, Well, you certainly got my attention!!! Many thanks, and I'm looking forward to seeing the pics. Cliff. Johnston "May the best you've ever seen, Be the worst you'll ever see;" from A Scots Toast by Allan Ramsay ----- Original Message ----- From: <OLeoghain@aol.com> To: <irl-antrim@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 8:48 AM Subject: [IRL-ANTRIM] Johnstons > Cliff, I just returned from County Antrim - Broughshane and its environs > to > be specific, and there are Johnstons galore in the 1st Broughshane > Presbyterian Church yard. Quite a few in Ahoghill, too. I photographed > some of them as my > Marth Logan married James Johnston from Antrim. > When I get the film back, will post the pictures. > Deb Logan > Pittsburgh > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > IRL-ANTRIM-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Then it's settled. We'll ship the offenders to Texas. David will drink them under the table, and I'll finish them off by using them as shark bait in the Gulf...lol... Cliff. Johnston "May the best you've ever seen, Be the worst you'll ever see;" from A Scots Toast by Allan Ramsay ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Bartley" <dbartley@eos.net> To: <irl-antrim@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 7:25 AM Subject: Re: [IRL-ANTRIM] Scotch-Irish - an insult, hardly! > Thanks Jim for the facts. > > I've queried my half-dozen Scottish friends on this issue, and the > response is mixed. For example: One person, actually English though > living in Edinburgh, said that some Scots could be offended. Another > actual Scot answered that "Scotch-Irish" is "not offensive but Scots- > Irish definitely preferred". Another Edinburgh inhabitant replied, > "I recall that Scottish people do not like to be called Scotch, but > the term Scotch-Irish I have never heard of before". Anyway, I don't > get the impression that today's inhabitants of Scotland are such > barbarians that "there are no two ways with the Scots, call them > Scotch and they'll hand you your head". > > Surely there must be Scots listening in here who could weigh in on > this conversation. I'd like to know if the problem with the word > "Scotch" has to do with the English. Or does the term simply sound > silly? Or does our American usage ignite the impression that we just > don't care about others' established culture? Or what? > > David > >

Mike, quite often on the internet (FamilySearch type sites) the submitter puts in two county names in one birthplace record-whether carelessly or because that is the only way they have to show that the subject is said to have been born or might have been born in either Antrim or Armagh.

Hi David, I had a look at Robert Johnston and can't make out the word in front of Town of......Also, wonder what is happening with the reference to bribery. Who is being accused? Robert? Or is he accusing someone else? Thanks for any input. Peggy ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Bartley" <dbartley@eos.net> To: <irl-antrim@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 7:41 AM Subject: Re: [IRL-ANTRIM] Johnstons [and Logans, Boyds,and Bartleys = Barclays] > Deb and Peggy [and Mike as well], > > Also, maybe you are familiar with a possibly relevant Freeholders > List - Deputy Check Book for County Antrim, 1776, which you can see > here: > > http://i49.photobucket.com/albums/f277/davidbartley/Free1776Antrim.gif > > In addition to Robert Barclay there are: Isaac Loggan, Robert > Johnston, and Robert Boyd. > > David > > > On Feb 14, 2007, at 10:16 AM, Peggy Gordon wrote: > >> >> Hi Deb, >> I would be interested as well as my James Johnston is from Co. >> Antrim, as >> per his death registration. Don;t have more information than that, >> and I >> sometimes wonder if he had a prior marriage than the one to >> Margaret Jane >> Groves. >> Thanks >> Peggy >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: <OLeoghain@aol.com> >> To: <irl-antrim@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 6:48 AM >> Subject: [IRL-ANTRIM] Johnstons >> >> >>> Cliff, I just returned from County Antrim - Broughshane and its >>> environs >> to >>> be specific, and there are Johnstons galore in the 1st Broughshane >>> Presbyterian Church yard. Quite a few in Ahoghill, too. I >>> photographed >> some of them as my >>> Marth Logan married James Johnston from Antrim. >>> When I get the film back, will post the pictures. >>> Deb Logan >>> Pittsburgh >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> IRL-ANTRIM-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> ---------- >> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRL-ANTRIM- >> request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes >> in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRL-ANTRIM-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Thanks Jim for the facts. I've queried my half-dozen Scottish friends on this issue, and the response is mixed. For example: One person, actually English though living in Edinburgh, said that some Scots could be offended. Another actual Scot answered that "Scotch-Irish" is "not offensive but Scots- Irish definitely preferred". Another Edinburgh inhabitant replied, "I recall that Scottish people do not like to be called Scotch, but the term Scotch-Irish I have never heard of before". Anyway, I don't get the impression that today's inhabitants of Scotland are such barbarians that "there are no two ways with the Scots, call them Scotch and they'll hand you your head". Surely there must be Scots listening in here who could weigh in on this conversation. I'd like to know if the problem with the word "Scotch" has to do with the English. Or does the term simply sound silly? Or does our American usage ignite the impression that we just don't care about others' established culture? Or what? David On Feb 13, 2007, at 11:51 PM, James wrote: > Jim at Syracuse, i throughly enjoyed your article. James of > Lethbridge > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "jim at syracuse" <j.j.carroll@earthlink.net> > To: <Irl-Antrim@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 9:37 AM > Subject: [IRL-ANTRIM] Scotch-Irish - an insult, hardly! > > >> The Scotch-Irish - an insult, hardly! >> >> To call them Scotch-Irish may be an unacceptable to some Scots, >> and it is >> an amusing controversy, but the term is quite acceptable where the >> many >> listers hail from. "Scotch-Irish" found its way into the lexicon a >> very >> long time ago. Even though the term is an Americanism, and not >> generally >> known in Scotland and Ireland, it has been in general use since >> the 18th >> century. But it goes back even further. >> >> Writing in 1573 good queen Elizabeth (yes, I know - she is hardly >> a Scot!) >> used the term Scotch-Irish and nobody raised any objection, except >> perhaps >> Sorley Boy - but given the context perhaps his objections were a bit >> muted. Beth said, "We are given to understand that a nobleman named >> 'Sorley Boy' [McDonald] and others, who be of the Scotch-Irish >> race, and >> some of the wild Irish, at this time are content to acknowledge >> our true >> and mere right to the countrie of Ulster and the crowne of Ireland." >> >> Good Queen Liz then offered the right, ownership, and the >> inheritance of >> the land ".upon the taking of an oath of allegiance to any meer >> Irish, or >> Scotch-Irish, or other strangers." >> >> But that was only an English Queen and she should be excused her >> transgressions, except for the fact that the late Professor James G. >> Leyburn located in the 1675 register of the University of Glasgow >> records >> and enrollment of one Francis Makemie from Ramelton. It included a >> notation that he was "Scoto-Hibernicus." That is, of course, >> Scotch-Irish. >> This Franciscus Makemius was later to emigrate to North America >> where he >> founded the Presbyterian Church on that continent, and organized >> the first >> Presbytery in Philadelphia in 1706. >> >> By the way, the last time I googled Glasgow, it was still in >> Scotland. >> >> The Rev. Cotton Mather who received his Doctor of Divinity in 1710 >> from >> the University of Glasgow was a leading clergyman in the American >> colonies. In 1706 he wrote, " I write letters unto diverse persons of >> Honour both in Scotland and in England; to procure Settlements of >> good >> Scotch Colonies, to the Northwest of us." >> >> For a little more history, during this formative period of American >> colonies the term "Scotch-Irish" was little used. This was not >> because it >> was felt to be disparaging, but rather the preferred term for >> those that >> originally emigrated was "Irish." Most of these immigrants were >> originally >> Ulstermen, and between 1717 and the Revolutionary War more than a >> quarter >> million from Ulster came to America. And a majority were >> Presbyterians and >> other dissenters. Even during the Revolutionary War they referred to >> themselves as Irish. And the term stuck until the mid-19th century >> when >> the poorer and principally illiterate elements arrived, primarily >> Roman >> Catholics. >> >> This flood of Irish escaping the Famine was descending upon what >> was then >> a Protestant county, much like Ulster. Prejudice against all >> foreigners >> was rampant, not so much on a sectarian basis, but because these >> people >> would hire out at near slave wages. Like much of Ulster, the >> antipathy was >> generated at the lower class, that laboring mass that competed for >> jobs. >> It was at this time that the descendants of the original Irish >> settlers, >> most from Ulster and a majority were Protestant, sought ways to >> distinguish themselves from the newcomers - the "shanty Irish" or bog >> trotters. So the compound name came into being - that cant phrase, a >> shibboleth, a mongrel absurdity, and even the Scotch-Irish Society of >> America has been described as a humbug. >> >> But a good shot of Glenfiddich Ancient Reserve or even some 20 >> year old >> Black Bush will do wonders and might lighten one up just a little >> bit. >> That is the true meaning of Scotch-Irish. Myself, I prefer a pint of >> Smiticks. >> >> j.j.carroll@earthlink.net >> > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---------- > > >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> IRL-ANTRIM-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---------- > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.411 / Virus Database: 268.17.37/682 - Release Date: > 2/12/2007 > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRL-ANTRIM- > request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes > in the subject and the body of the message >

Mike: You also better defrag etc.!! Gordon ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Boyd" <mikejboyd@bigpond.com> To: <irl-antrim@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 1:22 AM Subject: [IRL-ANTRIM] Armaugh, Co Antrim, Ireland >I know that some members have posted websites recently that will tell you > where townlands are. Being good the other night I deleted all of my 3,300 > messages that I had to go some action on. So I am now not going to be > able > to find it amongszt teh 6,000 delete messages I have. > > As I can't find Armaugh, Co Antrim, Ireland, I can only asssume it is an > Townland. > > Can someone tell me where it is please? > > Thank you > > Mike boyd > Brisbane > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > IRL-ANTRIM-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > >

Hi Deb, I would be interested as well as my James Johnston is from Co. Antrim, as per his death registration. Don;t have more information than that, and I sometimes wonder if he had a prior marriage than the one to Margaret Jane Groves. Thanks Peggy ----- Original Message ----- From: <OLeoghain@aol.com> To: <irl-antrim@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 6:48 AM Subject: [IRL-ANTRIM] Johnstons > Cliff, I just returned from County Antrim - Broughshane and its environs to > be specific, and there are Johnstons galore in the 1st Broughshane > Presbyterian Church yard. Quite a few in Ahoghill, too. I photographed some of them as my > Marth Logan married James Johnston from Antrim. > When I get the film back, will post the pictures. > Deb Logan > Pittsburgh > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRL-ANTRIM-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In NZ dollars it is triple and that is why I only signed on for a month. The information I got for myself was sufficient to order 2 marriage certificates and that cost as much as it does to order from the PRONI and the certificates are the same Sorry I was not of more help to you Patricia -----Original Message----- From: irl-antrim-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:irl-antrim-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of unschool@swfla.rr.com Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2007 4:07 AM To: irl-antrim@rootsweb.com Subject: [IRL-ANTRIM] Hawthorne family Thank you for your help and from the information from Emerald Ancestors. I did locate William's birth record and his parents marriage record is on there as well althoughh I had this information previously. I am really looking to find out William Hawthorne's father's (James Hawthorne) mother's name and also his mother's (Elizabeth Bell) mother's name. Hope that isn't too confusing... Emerald Ancestry is an okay resource athough it doesn't give you much information - even for the 10 pounds a month. From the US it is almost double that much. It serves as a basic record search. For me, there is too little information to go on -- even to order a record from. Eireann ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRL-ANTRIM-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Other Ulster-Scots followed Makemie to Maryland from Ireland in and after 1683. This is clear from the records of Somerset County which had issued the call to the Presbytery of Laggan for a "godly minister" that led to Makemie's missionary voyage. A number of familiar Ulster Scot names began to appear in the land and court records of Somerset at this time, including that of my own Polk family which came from Ballendrait, near Lifford. A passage from the Somerset court records makes it clear that he term Scotch-Irish was already in use at this time, and what was intended. In March Court, 1690, William Pattent (Patton) appears to testify about an assault by one Matthew Scarbrough, who apparently had no love for the new arrivals from Ulster. "I William Pattent was at worke at James Minders and one night as I was at worke Mr Matt: Scarbrough came into the house of sd Minders and sett down by me as I was at work, the sd Minder askt him if he came afoot, he made answer again and sd he did, saying that man meaning me calling me Rogue makes me goe afoot also makes it his business to goe from house to house to ruinate me, my Wife and Children for ever. I made answer is it I Mr. Scarbrough. and he replyed and said ay you, you Rogue, for which doing ile whip you and make my Wife whipp to whipp you, and I answered if ever I have abused (you) at any time, or to any bodies hearing, I will give you full satisfaction to your own Content. You Scotch Irish dogg it was you, with that he gave me a blow on the face saying it was no more sin to kill me then to kill a dogg, or any Scotch Irish dogg, giving me another blow in the face. now saying goe to yr god that Rogue and have a warrant for me and I will answer it. Wm.Patent " Scarbrough was brought before the Justices at the June Court session, recorded as follows: "Matthew Scarbrough of this County at the house of James Minor in the hundred of Bogetenorton Anno. '89. his Ma'ties peace then and their did not keep, but their M't'ies. Comrs did abuse and contemne, Calling Capt David Browne Rogue & Dogg, and in an oppirous manner stile him the Scotch Irishmens God, and upon the matter aforesd did beat and wound William Pattent of this County, taylor, saying affirming and his wicked intent with a loud voyce declaring that it was no more sin to kill the sd Pattent than it was to kill a dogg ...." Scarbrough was found guilty and made to post 20 pounds sterling as security for his good behavior, a tidy sum in those days. John Polk Havre de Grace, Maryland ============================================================== > [Original Message] > From: jim at syracuse <j.j.carroll@earthlink.net> > To: <Irl-Antrim@rootsweb.com> > Date: 2/13/2007 10:28:41 AM > Subject: [IRL-ANTRIM] Scotch-Irish - an insult, hardly! > > The Scotch-Irish - an insult, hardly! > > To call them Scotch-Irish may be an unacceptable to some Scots, and it is an amusing controversy, but the term is quite acceptable where the many listers hail from. "Scotch-Irish" found its way into the lexicon a very long time ago. Even though the term is an Americanism, and not generally known in Scotland and Ireland, it has been in general use since the 18th century. But it goes back even further. > > Writing in 1573 good queen Elizabeth (yes, I know - she is hardly a Scot!) used the term Scotch-Irish and nobody raised any objection, except perhaps Sorley Boy � but given the context perhaps his objections were a bit muted. Beth said, �We are given to understand that a nobleman named �Sorley Boy� [McDonald] and others, who be of the Scotch-Irish race, and some of the wild Irish, at this time are content to acknowledge our true and mere right to the countrie of Ulster and the crowne of Ireland�� > > Good Queen Liz then offered the right, ownership, and the inheritance of the land ��upon the taking of an oath of allegiance to any meer Irish, or Scotch-Irish, or other strangers.� > > But that was only an English Queen and she should be excused her transgressions, except for the fact that the late Professor James G. Leyburn located in the 1675 register of the University of Glasgow records and enrollment of one Francis Makemie from Ramelton. It included a notation that he was �Scoto-Hibernicus.� That is, of course, Scotch-Irish. This Franciscus Makemius was later to emigrate to North America where he founded the Presbyterian Church on that continent, and organized the first Presbytery in Philadelphia in 1706. > > By the way, the last time I googled Glasgow, it was still in Scotland. > > The Rev. Cotton Mather who received his Doctor of Divinity in 1710 from the University of Glasgow was a leading clergyman in the American colonies. In 1706 he wrote, � I write letters unto diverse persons of Honour both in Scotland and in England; to procure Settlements of good Scotch Colonies, to the Northwest of us.� > > For a little more history, during this formative period of American colonies the term �Scotch-Irish� was little used. This was not because it was felt to be disparaging, but rather the preferred term for those that originally emigrated was �Irish.� Most of these immigrants were originally Ulstermen, and between 1717 and the Revolutionary War more than a quarter million from Ulster came to America. And a majority were Presbyterians and other dissenters. Even during the Revolutionary War they referred to themselves as Irish. And the term stuck until the mid-19th century when the poorer and principally illiterate elements arrived, primarily Roman Catholics. > > This flood of Irish escaping the Famine was descending upon what was then a Protestant county, much like Ulster. Prejudice against all foreigners was rampant, not so much on a sectarian basis, but because these people would hire out at near slave wages. Like much of Ulster, the antipathy was generated at the lower class, that laboring mass that competed for jobs. It was at this time that the descendants of the original Irish settlers, most from Ulster and a majority were Protestant, sought ways to distinguish themselves from the newcomers � the �shanty Irish� or bog trotters. So the compound name came into being � that cant phrase, a shibboleth, a mongrel absurdity, and even the Scotch-Irish Society of America has been described as a humbug. > > But a good shot of Glenfiddich Ancient Reserve or even some 20 year old Black Bush will do wonders and might lighten one up just a little bit. That is the true meaning of Scotch-Irish. Myself, I prefer a pint of Smiticks. > > j.j.carroll@earthlink.net --- John Polk --- Havre de Grace MD --- jfpolk@earthlink.net

Jim at Syracuse, i throughly enjoyed your article. James of Lethbridge ----- Original Message ----- From: "jim at syracuse" <j.j.carroll@earthlink.net> To: <Irl-Antrim@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, February 12, 2007 9:37 AM Subject: [IRL-ANTRIM] Scotch-Irish - an insult, hardly! > The Scotch-Irish - an insult, hardly! > > To call them Scotch-Irish may be an unacceptable to some Scots, and it is > an amusing controversy, but the term is quite acceptable where the many > listers hail from. "Scotch-Irish" found its way into the lexicon a very > long time ago. Even though the term is an Americanism, and not generally > known in Scotland and Ireland, it has been in general use since the 18th > century. But it goes back even further. > > Writing in 1573 good queen Elizabeth (yes, I know - she is hardly a Scot!) > used the term Scotch-Irish and nobody raised any objection, except perhaps > Sorley Boy - but given the context perhaps his objections were a bit > muted. Beth said, "We are given to understand that a nobleman named > 'Sorley Boy' [McDonald] and others, who be of the Scotch-Irish race, and > some of the wild Irish, at this time are content to acknowledge our true > and mere right to the countrie of Ulster and the crowne of Ireland." > > Good Queen Liz then offered the right, ownership, and the inheritance of > the land ".upon the taking of an oath of allegiance to any meer Irish, or > Scotch-Irish, or other strangers." > > But that was only an English Queen and she should be excused her > transgressions, except for the fact that the late Professor James G. > Leyburn located in the 1675 register of the University of Glasgow records > and enrollment of one Francis Makemie from Ramelton. It included a > notation that he was "Scoto-Hibernicus." That is, of course, Scotch-Irish. > This Franciscus Makemius was later to emigrate to North America where he > founded the Presbyterian Church on that continent, and organized the first > Presbytery in Philadelphia in 1706. > > By the way, the last time I googled Glasgow, it was still in Scotland. > > The Rev. Cotton Mather who received his Doctor of Divinity in 1710 from > the University of Glasgow was a leading clergyman in the American > colonies. In 1706 he wrote, " I write letters unto diverse persons of > Honour both in Scotland and in England; to procure Settlements of good > Scotch Colonies, to the Northwest of us." > > For a little more history, during this formative period of American > colonies the term "Scotch-Irish" was little used. This was not because it > was felt to be disparaging, but rather the preferred term for those that > originally emigrated was "Irish." Most of these immigrants were originally > Ulstermen, and between 1717 and the Revolutionary War more than a quarter > million from Ulster came to America. And a majority were Presbyterians and > other dissenters. Even during the Revolutionary War they referred to > themselves as Irish. And the term stuck until the mid-19th century when > the poorer and principally illiterate elements arrived, primarily Roman > Catholics. > > This flood of Irish escaping the Famine was descending upon what was then > a Protestant county, much like Ulster. Prejudice against all foreigners > was rampant, not so much on a sectarian basis, but because these people > would hire out at near slave wages. Like much of Ulster, the antipathy was > generated at the lower class, that laboring mass that competed for jobs. > It was at this time that the descendants of the original Irish settlers, > most from Ulster and a majority were Protestant, sought ways to > distinguish themselves from the newcomers - the "shanty Irish" or bog > trotters. So the compound name came into being - that cant phrase, a > shibboleth, a mongrel absurdity, and even the Scotch-Irish Society of > America has been described as a humbug. > > But a good shot of Glenfiddich Ancient Reserve or even some 20 year old > Black Bush will do wonders and might lighten one up just a little bit. > That is the true meaning of Scotch-Irish. Myself, I prefer a pint of > Smiticks. > > j.j.carroll@earthlink.net > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > IRL-ANTRIM-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.411 / Virus Database: 268.17.37/682 - Release Date: 2/12/2007

I am after Henry Leathem, born between 1850 and 1870 fathers name John. Many thanks Wendy. And if you come across any Criglingtons at all I would be grateful only if you have time. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Patricia Moosman" <pat.moosman@clear.net.nz> To: <irl-antrim@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 5:30 PM Subject: Re: [IRL-ANTRIM] Emerald Ancestors > This what you get for 10 pound to get the lot you have to pay another 12 > pound and get a certificate, the certificate gives exactly the same > details > as those ordered through the PRONI as that is where their information > comes > from but you get via e-mail within hours. I have got it for another 14 > days > if you would like to look something up for you, I would getting up to the > same level as those below. > > Patricia > > -----Original Message----- > From: irl-antrim-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:irl-antrim-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of John Shaw > Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 8:10 PM > To: irl-antrim@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [IRL-ANTRIM] Emerald Ancestors > > hello Patricia, > > Are these typical of the data we can get for a £10 a month sub? > Do marriage extracts ever give details of bride or groom's parents? > Thanks > > John Shaw > Auckland NZ > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Patricia Moosman" <pat.moosman@clear.net.nz> > To: <irl-antrim@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 2:16 PM > Subject: Re: [IRL-ANTRIM] Hawthornes - help with research > > >> Have found this birth on Emerald ancestors but I think it is to late to >> be >> your William but thought I would send it anyway >> >> Record Type Civil Birth >> Date of Birth 2 May 1866 >> Name William HAWTHORNE >> Gender M >> Fathers Name William HAWTHORNE >> Mothers Maiden Name Martha YOUNG >> Civil District Newtownards >> Sub District Kilmood >> County Down >> >> >> And some marriages that might fit for James >> >> Record Type Civil Marriage >> Date of Marriage 07 May 1849 >> Groom Name james HAWTHORNE >> Bride Name isabella BALLANCE >> Church Banbridge Civil Registrars Office >> Parish Seapatrick >> Civil District Banbridge >> County Down >> >> Record Type Civil Marriage >> Date of Marriage 08 Sep 1857 >> Groom Name james HAWTHORNE >> Bride Name susanna RUDDOCK >> Church Dromore Church of Ireland >> Parish Dromore >> Civil District Banbridge >> County Down >> >> Record Type Civil Marriage >> Date of Marriage 15 Jan 1861 >> Groom Name james HAWTHORNE >> Bride Name elizabeth ELLIOTT >> Church Magheralin Church of Ireland >> Parish Magheralin >> Civil District Lurgan >> County Down >> >> >> Record Type Civil Marriage >> Date of Marriage 12 Sep 1861 >> Groom Name james HAWTHORNE >> Bride Name rachel CLUGSTON >> Church Antrim Old Presbyterian Church >> Parish Antrim >> Civil District Antrim >> County Antrim >> >> Hope this is of some help >> >> Patricia >> New Zealand >> > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > IRL-ANTRIM-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > IRL-ANTRIM-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

This what you get for 10 pound to get the lot you have to pay another 12 pound and get a certificate, the certificate gives exactly the same details as those ordered through the PRONI as that is where their information comes from but you get via e-mail within hours. I have got it for another 14 days if you would like to look something up for you, I would getting up to the same level as those below. Patricia -----Original Message----- From: irl-antrim-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:irl-antrim-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of John Shaw Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 8:10 PM To: irl-antrim@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [IRL-ANTRIM] Emerald Ancestors hello Patricia, Are these typical of the data we can get for a £10 a month sub? Do marriage extracts ever give details of bride or groom's parents? Thanks John Shaw Auckland NZ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Patricia Moosman" <pat.moosman@clear.net.nz> To: <irl-antrim@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 2:16 PM Subject: Re: [IRL-ANTRIM] Hawthornes - help with research > Have found this birth on Emerald ancestors but I think it is to late to be > your William but thought I would send it anyway > > Record Type Civil Birth > Date of Birth 2 May 1866 > Name William HAWTHORNE > Gender M > Fathers Name William HAWTHORNE > Mothers Maiden Name Martha YOUNG > Civil District Newtownards > Sub District Kilmood > County Down > > > And some marriages that might fit for James > > Record Type Civil Marriage > Date of Marriage 07 May 1849 > Groom Name james HAWTHORNE > Bride Name isabella BALLANCE > Church Banbridge Civil Registrars Office > Parish Seapatrick > Civil District Banbridge > County Down > > Record Type Civil Marriage > Date of Marriage 08 Sep 1857 > Groom Name james HAWTHORNE > Bride Name susanna RUDDOCK > Church Dromore Church of Ireland > Parish Dromore > Civil District Banbridge > County Down > > Record Type Civil Marriage > Date of Marriage 15 Jan 1861 > Groom Name james HAWTHORNE > Bride Name elizabeth ELLIOTT > Church Magheralin Church of Ireland > Parish Magheralin > Civil District Lurgan > County Down > > > Record Type Civil Marriage > Date of Marriage 12 Sep 1861 > Groom Name james HAWTHORNE > Bride Name rachel CLUGSTON > Church Antrim Old Presbyterian Church > Parish Antrim > Civil District Antrim > County Antrim > > Hope this is of some help > > Patricia > New Zealand > ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRL-ANTRIM-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

hello Patricia, Are these typical of the data we can get for a £10 a month sub? Do marriage extracts ever give details of bride or groom's parents? Thanks John Shaw Auckland NZ ----- Original Message ----- From: "Patricia Moosman" <pat.moosman@clear.net.nz> To: <irl-antrim@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2007 2:16 PM Subject: Re: [IRL-ANTRIM] Hawthornes - help with research > Have found this birth on Emerald ancestors but I think it is to late to be > your William but thought I would send it anyway > > Record Type Civil Birth > Date of Birth 2 May 1866 > Name William HAWTHORNE > Gender M > Fathers Name William HAWTHORNE > Mothers Maiden Name Martha YOUNG > Civil District Newtownards > Sub District Kilmood > County Down > > > And some marriages that might fit for James > > Record Type Civil Marriage > Date of Marriage 07 May 1849 > Groom Name james HAWTHORNE > Bride Name isabella BALLANCE > Church Banbridge Civil Registrars Office > Parish Seapatrick > Civil District Banbridge > County Down > > Record Type Civil Marriage > Date of Marriage 08 Sep 1857 > Groom Name james HAWTHORNE > Bride Name susanna RUDDOCK > Church Dromore Church of Ireland > Parish Dromore > Civil District Banbridge > County Down > > Record Type Civil Marriage > Date of Marriage 15 Jan 1861 > Groom Name james HAWTHORNE > Bride Name elizabeth ELLIOTT > Church Magheralin Church of Ireland > Parish Magheralin > Civil District Lurgan > County Down > > > Record Type Civil Marriage > Date of Marriage 12 Sep 1861 > Groom Name james HAWTHORNE > Bride Name rachel CLUGSTON > Church Antrim Old Presbyterian Church > Parish Antrim > Civil District Antrim > County Antrim > > Hope this is of some help > > Patricia > New Zealand >