Do you think the Diocese of New York will ever hand over the church marriage records as suggested? ----- Original Message ----- From: <irish-new-york-city-request@rootsweb.com> To: <irish-new-york-city@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2007 1:00 AM Subject: IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY Digest, Vol 2, Issue 114 > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Distance between parishes of couples (Michelle and Kevin Cassidy) > 2. Re: Distance between parishes of couples (Frank McCullough) > 3. Re: Distance between parishes of couples > (Michelle and Kevin Cassidy) > 4. Re: Distance between parishes of couples (Frank McCullough) > 5. Re: Distance between parishes of couples > (Michelle and Kevin Cassidy) > 6. Re: Distance between parishes of couples (Melanie Egan) > 7. Re: Distance between parishes of couples > (Michelle and Kevin Cassidy) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 12:18:10 -0600 > From: Michelle and Kevin Cassidy <kmct@earthlink.net> > Subject: [IRISH-NYC] Distance between parishes of couples > To: IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY@rootsweb.com > Message-ID: <53B62FBE-65D6-4A82-BC32-6DAD2ADD57C9@earthlink.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed > > I have had a devil of a time finding marriages of certain couples. > One would assume that for a couple to marry they must live near each > other at some point or marry someone that lived near a friend, job or > relative. > > I have one couple that married in 1905 at Epiphany near the bride's > home in the East 20s but the groom lived on East 88th Street. Since > brides particularly do not show up in the city directory as a single > woman how have you found more difficult couples? I write to the > surrounding parishes and more often than not it is a bust. Also many > of the parishes are not so eager to look stuff up. Any tried and true > suggestions? > > The lack of full compliance by the priests in the civil recording of > weddings with the Health Department before 1908 has complicated the > matter in 2007. Unfortunately, the 5 marriages I am seeking took > place c. 1881, c.1886, c. 1890, c.1898 and c. 1900. None of these > five show up on the IGG site marriage index. I have church > certificates for several marriages that do not appear on the IGG > site; 1878, 1881, 1882, 1892 and 1903. > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 10:38:23 -0800 > From: Frank McCullough <frank@ap.net> > Subject: Re: [IRISH-NYC] Distance between parishes of couples > To: irish-new-york-city@rootsweb.com > Message-ID: <476FFC9F.7090703@ap.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > When you send a request for lookup, do you also send along a donation? > > Frank > > > Michelle and Kevin Cassidy wrote: > >>I have had a devil of a time finding marriages of certain couples. >>One would assume that for a couple to marry they must live near each >>other at some point or marry someone that lived near a friend, job or >>relative. >> >>I have one couple that married in 1905 at Epiphany near the bride's >>home in the East 20s but the groom lived on East 88th Street. Since >>brides particularly do not show up in the city directory as a single >>woman how have you found more difficult couples? I write to the >>surrounding parishes and more often than not it is a bust. Also many >>of the parishes are not so eager to look stuff up. Any tried and true >>suggestions? >> >>The lack of full compliance by the priests in the civil recording of >>weddings with the Health Department before 1908 has complicated the >>matter in 2007. Unfortunately, the 5 marriages I am seeking took >>place c. 1881, c.1886, c. 1890, c.1898 and c. 1900. None of these >>five show up on the IGG site marriage index. I have church >>certificates for several marriages that do not appear on the IGG >>site; 1878, 1881, 1882, 1892 and 1903. >> >>------------------------------- >>To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >>without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> >> > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 12:57:29 -0600 > From: Michelle and Kevin Cassidy <kmct@earthlink.net> > Subject: Re: [IRISH-NYC] Distance between parishes of couples > To: irish-new-york-city@rootsweb.com > Message-ID: <D72998C5-9686-4B8A-B6A1-661BB4E14DA4@earthlink.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed > > Yes, I do send a donation. I have started calling first to make sure > I send the correct amount. It is up to $25 at some places. They do > not always cash the checks right away. Sometimes they forget to send > a letter saying they did not find a marriage despite having a SASE > with the check. The check clears and when called they say they > thought they sent me a note. The letter then comes in a different > envelope than the one I sent. Did they even check or just take the > money and run? Most have been very cordial and helpful but a few have > been very rude. > > One priest in particular comes to mind. I know they do not exist to > serve our genealogical curiosity but hiring a professional will not > make my request go away. He seems to think that I would rather pay > him $25 for a chance that they were married at his parish and get > minimal details when I could pay Muni Archives $15 and get much > information on a civil record. I could also rent the film from the > FHL for $5.50 or send a request for a copy through the FHL for 8 > copies at $16. He did not believe me when I shared that many Catholic > marriages do not have a civil record from before 1915. I challenged > him to pull ten marriages from his records between 1866-1907 and see > how many do not show up on the IGG index. Even Milton Hershey's 1898 > wedding at St. Patrick's did not get turned into the Health > Department. Marriage records unlike the baptismal records are public > records. They were supposed to be turned in at the time of the > wedding. The archdiocese should do the right thing and turn in copies > of all these marriage records from before 1915. They would eliminate > requests like ours and provide a huge amount of goodwill for themselves. > > > On Dec 24, 2007, at 12:38 PM, Frank McCullough wrote: > >> When you send a request for lookup, do you also send along a donation? >> >> Frank >> >> >> Michelle and Kevin Cassidy wrote: >> >>> I have had a devil of a time finding marriages of certain couples. >>> One would assume that for a couple to marry they must live near each >>> other at some point or marry someone that lived near a friend, job or >>> relative. >>> >>> I have one couple that married in 1905 at Epiphany near the bride's >>> home in the East 20s but the groom lived on East 88th Street. Since >>> brides particularly do not show up in the city directory as a single >>> woman how have you found more difficult couples? I write to the >>> surrounding parishes and more often than not it is a bust. Also many >>> of the parishes are not so eager to look stuff up. Any tried and true >>> suggestions? >>> >>> The lack of full compliance by the priests in the civil recording of >>> weddings with the Health Department before 1908 has complicated the >>> matter in 2007. Unfortunately, the 5 marriages I am seeking took >>> place c. 1881, c.1886, c. 1890, c.1898 and c. 1900. None of these >>> five show up on the IGG site marriage index. I have church >>> certificates for several marriages that do not appear on the IGG >>> site; 1878, 1881, 1882, 1892 and 1903. >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRISH-NEW- >>> YORK-CITY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRISH-NEW- >> YORK-CITY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 13:53:44 -0800 > From: Frank McCullough <frank@ap.net> > Subject: Re: [IRISH-NYC] Distance between parishes of couples > To: irish-new-york-city@rootsweb.com > Message-ID: <47702A68.3070806@ap.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > Sounds like you've had some negative experiences... > > The Church considers marriage a religious Sacrament and not a civil > event. Therefore they don't feel obligated to report the marriage. Not > good for us but... > > I've had the same problem with some ancestors of mine. I've been unable > to find their marriage, c 1870, and unable to find him in the 1850 & > 1860 censuses so I don't know what neighborhood he lived in. I've found > the baptisms of their children and the wife...marriage of the wife's > parents, etc...but not their marriage, very frustrating. > > I've found, in my "numerous" requests for lookups at these churches, > that many of the people that do the lookups are volunteers and > consequently the effort may be lacking. One church, St. Mary's on the > Lower East Side, required my calling on a half dozen different occasions > over an 8 month period before the checking was finally done...Her name > was "Sima" and I'm sure she doesn't want to hear from me again. She was > very nice though. > > Merry Christmas > > Frank McCullough > California > > > Michelle and Kevin Cassidy wrote: > >>Yes, I do send a donation. I have started calling first to make sure >>I send the correct amount. It is up to $25 at some places. They do >>not always cash the checks right away. Sometimes they forget to send >>a letter saying they did not find a marriage despite having a SASE >>with the check. The check clears and when called they say they >>thought they sent me a note. The letter then comes in a different >>envelope than the one I sent. Did they even check or just take the >>money and run? Most have been very cordial and helpful but a few have >>been very rude. >> >>One priest in particular comes to mind. I know they do not exist to >>serve our genealogical curiosity but hiring a professional will not >>make my request go away. He seems to think that I would rather pay >>him $25 for a chance that they were married at his parish and get >>minimal details when I could pay Muni Archives $15 and get much >>information on a civil record. I could also rent the film from the >>FHL for $5.50 or send a request for a copy through the FHL for 8 >>copies at $16. He did not believe me when I shared that many Catholic >>marriages do not have a civil record from before 1915. I challenged >>him to pull ten marriages from his records between 1866-1907 and see >>how many do not show up on the IGG index. Even Milton Hershey's 1898 >>wedding at St. Patrick's did not get turned into the Health >>Department. Marriage records unlike the baptismal records are public >>records. They were supposed to be turned in at the time of the >>wedding. The archdiocese should do the right thing and turn in copies >>of all these marriage records from before 1915. They would eliminate >>requests like ours and provide a huge amount of goodwill for themselves. >> >> >>On Dec 24, 2007, at 12:38 PM, Frank McCullough wrote: >> >> >> >>>When you send a request for lookup, do you also send along a donation? >>> >>>Frank >>> >>> >>>Michelle and Kevin Cassidy wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>>I have had a devil of a time finding marriages of certain couples. >>>>One would assume that for a couple to marry they must live near each >>>>other at some point or marry someone that lived near a friend, job or >>>>relative. >>>> >>>>I have one couple that married in 1905 at Epiphany near the bride's >>>>home in the East 20s but the groom lived on East 88th Street. Since >>>>brides particularly do not show up in the city directory as a single >>>>woman how have you found more difficult couples? I write to the >>>>surrounding parishes and more often than not it is a bust. Also many >>>>of the parishes are not so eager to look stuff up. Any tried and true >>>>suggestions? >>>> >>>>The lack of full compliance by the priests in the civil recording of >>>>weddings with the Health Department before 1908 has complicated the >>>>matter in 2007. Unfortunately, the 5 marriages I am seeking took >>>>place c. 1881, c.1886, c. 1890, c.1898 and c. 1900. None of these >>>>five show up on the IGG site marriage index. I have church >>>>certificates for several marriages that do not appear on the IGG >>>>site; 1878, 1881, 1882, 1892 and 1903. >>>> >>>>------------------------------- >>>>To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRISH-NEW- >>>>YORK-CITY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>>>the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>------------------------------- >>>To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRISH-NEW- >>>YORK-CITY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>>the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> >> >> >>------------------------------- >>To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >>without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> >> > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 16:11:13 -0600 > From: Michelle and Kevin Cassidy <kmct@earthlink.net> > Subject: Re: [IRISH-NYC] Distance between parishes of couples > To: irish-new-york-city@rootsweb.com > Message-ID: <D743EA4B-F7DC-4220-B484-D9145D8A4EDF@earthlink.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed > > > The church does celebrate marriage as a sacrament but it understands > that it serves a purely civil purpose as well and that the state can > require a license or require a reporting of a marriage; for > inheritance and other reasons. The Irish priests in Ireland were > recording civil records of marriage with the government in 1864 and > later. It amazes me that the priests here felt comfortable ignoring > the state law in NY requiring them to do likewise. (Are the fines > still in effect or has the statute of limitations run? It was $50 an > omission until 1890 or so and then went to $100. That would add up > especially with interest.) > > I especially find it annoying that since the 19th-century priests did > not do their civic duty we have such a chore on our hands to find the > marriage yet Fr. is annoyed with you and me and it never dawns on him > that his predecessors are ultimately responsible and his superiors > are doing nothing to expedite the correction. I can only imagine that > since Chicago's older records are available through the FHL that they > have few requests at the parish level. > > I will stop complaining and wait to read others tales of success with > parish marriage searches! > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 21:02:16 -0500 > From: "Melanie Egan" <megan@cfl.rr.com> > Subject: Re: [IRISH-NYC] Distance between parishes of couples > To: <irish-new-york-city@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID: <015901c8469a$2ccadf60$060ba8c0@LAPTOPEGAN> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=original > > I agree with you! I can't find civil marriage records for any of my > relatives married in the 1870's and 1880's. I've sent numerous letters to > parishes and it is hard to know if they even looked or even if it is the > right parish. I can see that they have many other things to do, but then > perhaps the books should be allowed to be microfilmed or copied so that > the > information would be available and they wouldn't be bothered. Does anyone > know if this type of project is possible? There is a wealth of > information > there. > > One parish that has been amazing with baptisms is Immaculate Conception. > They have twice sent a photocopy of the baptismal records for 6 or 7 > children of the ancestors I was researching. They truly made an extra > effort which was so helpful. We didn't know many of the children existed > because they died so young. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michelle and Kevin Cassidy" <kmct@earthlink.net> > To: <irish-new-york-city@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 5:11 PM > Subject: Re: [IRISH-NYC] Distance between parishes of couples > > >> >> The church does celebrate marriage as a sacrament but it understands >> that it serves a purely civil purpose as well and that the state can >> require a license or require a reporting of a marriage; for >> inheritance and other reasons. The Irish priests in Ireland were >> recording civil records of marriage with the government in 1864 and >> later. It amazes me that the priests here felt comfortable ignoring >> the state law in NY requiring them to do likewise. (Are the fines >> still in effect or has the statute of limitations run? It was $50 an >> omission until 1890 or so and then went to $100. That would add up >> especially with interest.) >> >> I especially find it annoying that since the 19th-century priests did >> not do their civic duty we have such a chore on our hands to find the >> marriage yet Fr. is annoyed with you and me and it never dawns on him >> that his predecessors are ultimately responsible and his superiors >> are doing nothing to expedite the correction. I can only imagine that >> since Chicago's older records are available through the FHL that they >> have few requests at the parish level. >> >> I will stop complaining and wait to read others tales of success with >> parish marriage searches! >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 23:59:23 -0600 > From: Michelle and Kevin Cassidy <kmct@earthlink.net> > Subject: Re: [IRISH-NYC] Distance between parishes of couples > To: irish-new-york-city@rootsweb.com > Message-ID: <2B72ADAA-D089-478D-A42F-B9C1BCFD4427@earthlink.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed > > I agree with Immaculate Conception being cooperative and providing > children one may not have known about. I was provided with my > ancestor's first wedding and the daughter of this first marriage, his > brother's marriage and baptism a year later of apparently the only > child of the brother's marriage and lastly the baptisms of the third > brother's 5 American-born children. I assume that they must have an > index. That is not the case at other parishes. > > Unfortunately, my ancestor's second marriage did not take place at > Immaculate Conception. > > I am searching the Cassidy brothers. The first and third brothers > married McKeon sisters in 1878 and 1882. The middle brother had > married a Murphy in Newry, County Down/Armagh in 1877. The city of > Newry crosses the river and is in both counties. > > I have written the archdiocese and it does not appear that any plans > are being made to microfilm these records. I suggested that they > create an index so that we could contact the right parish in a one > shot deal but they did not take my suggestion seriously. An index > would provide money for the diocese which could maintain it and > charge a small fee. The parish could still charge $20 or so which > would not be so bad if you knew ahead of time that it was the only > parish you would have to send a check for that item. > > Indexing would also minimize the unnecessary searching if the event > did not take place there and save the pages of the books from more > wear and tear. > > > On Dec 24, 2007, at 8:02 PM, Melanie Egan wrote: > >> I agree with you! I can't find civil marriage records for any of my >> relatives married in the 1870's and 1880's. I've sent numerous >> letters to >> parishes and it is hard to know if they even looked or even if it >> is the >> right parish. I can see that they have many other things to do, >> but then >> perhaps the books should be allowed to be microfilmed or copied so >> that the >> information would be available and they wouldn't be bothered. Does >> anyone >> know if this type of project is possible? There is a wealth of >> information >> there. >> >> One parish that has been amazing with baptisms is Immaculate >> Conception. >> They have twice sent a photocopy of the baptismal records for 6 or 7 >> children of the ancestors I was researching. They truly made an extra >> effort which was so helpful. We didn't know many of the children >> existed >> because they died so young. >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Michelle and Kevin Cassidy" <kmct@earthlink.net> >> To: <irish-new-york-city@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 5:11 PM >> Subject: Re: [IRISH-NYC] Distance between parishes of couples >> >> >>> >>> The church does celebrate marriage as a sacrament but it understands >>> that it serves a purely civil purpose as well and that the state can >>> require a license or require a reporting of a marriage; for >>> inheritance and other reasons. The Irish priests in Ireland were >>> recording civil records of marriage with the government in 1864 and >>> later. It amazes me that the priests here felt comfortable ignoring >>> the state law in NY requiring them to do likewise. (Are the fines >>> still in effect or has the statute of limitations run? It was $50 an >>> omission until 1890 or so and then went to $100. That would add up >>> especially with interest.) >>> >>> I especially find it annoying that since the 19th-century priests did >>> not do their civic duty we have such a chore on our hands to find the >>> marriage yet Fr. is annoyed with you and me and it never dawns on him >>> that his predecessors are ultimately responsible and his superiors >>> are doing nothing to expedite the correction. I can only imagine that >>> since Chicago's older records are available through the FHL that they >>> have few requests at the parish level. >>> >>> I will stop complaining and wait to read others tales of success with >>> parish marriage searches! >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >>> without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRISH-NEW- >> YORK-CITY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------ > > To contact the IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY list administrator, send an email to > IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY-admin@rootsweb.com. > > To post a message to the IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY mailing list, send an email > to IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY@rootsweb.com. > > __________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY-request@rootsweb.com > with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the body > of the > email with no additional text. > > > End of IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY Digest, Vol 2, Issue 114 > *************************************************** >