Perhaps the time has come to plead our case for the records with the diocese? I'm sure it was easier in the past just to say "no" to any diocesan guidelines but genealogy is now one of the most popular "hobbies" (seems like more than a hobby!) for Americans. It can be a win for the diocese in many ways. Certainly the media publicity would be very positive if the church were to make available records through an index or digital format , and that could be a source of revenue for them as well. The easiest method would just be to allow LDS to scan them, and then of course, there is the volunteer option of allowing a group like the Italian Genealogical Society to index the information. The huge benefit would be that the information would be preserved forever instead of the current risk of the records being destroyed in a fire. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Genie Coats" <coatsgenie@nc.rr.com> To: <irish-new-york-city@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2007 12:40 PM Subject: Re: [IRISH-NYC] IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY Digest, Vol 2, Issue 114 > Do you think the Diocese of New York will ever hand over the church > marriage > records as suggested? > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <irish-new-york-city-request@rootsweb.com> > To: <irish-new-york-city@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2007 1:00 AM > Subject: IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY Digest, Vol 2, Issue 114 > > >> >> >> Today's Topics: >> >> 1. Distance between parishes of couples (Michelle and Kevin Cassidy) >> 2. Re: Distance between parishes of couples (Frank McCullough) >> 3. Re: Distance between parishes of couples >> (Michelle and Kevin Cassidy) >> 4. Re: Distance between parishes of couples (Frank McCullough) >> 5. Re: Distance between parishes of couples >> (Michelle and Kevin Cassidy) >> 6. Re: Distance between parishes of couples (Melanie Egan) >> 7. Re: Distance between parishes of couples >> (Michelle and Kevin Cassidy) >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 12:18:10 -0600 >> From: Michelle and Kevin Cassidy <kmct@earthlink.net> >> Subject: [IRISH-NYC] Distance between parishes of couples >> To: IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY@rootsweb.com >> Message-ID: <53B62FBE-65D6-4A82-BC32-6DAD2ADD57C9@earthlink.net> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed >> >> I have had a devil of a time finding marriages of certain couples. >> One would assume that for a couple to marry they must live near each >> other at some point or marry someone that lived near a friend, job or >> relative. >> >> I have one couple that married in 1905 at Epiphany near the bride's >> home in the East 20s but the groom lived on East 88th Street. Since >> brides particularly do not show up in the city directory as a single >> woman how have you found more difficult couples? I write to the >> surrounding parishes and more often than not it is a bust. Also many >> of the parishes are not so eager to look stuff up. Any tried and true >> suggestions? >> >> The lack of full compliance by the priests in the civil recording of >> weddings with the Health Department before 1908 has complicated the >> matter in 2007. Unfortunately, the 5 marriages I am seeking took >> place c. 1881, c.1886, c. 1890, c.1898 and c. 1900. None of these >> five show up on the IGG site marriage index. I have church >> certificates for several marriages that do not appear on the IGG >> site; 1878, 1881, 1882, 1892 and 1903. >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 2 >> Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 10:38:23 -0800 >> From: Frank McCullough <frank@ap.net> >> Subject: Re: [IRISH-NYC] Distance between parishes of couples >> To: irish-new-york-city@rootsweb.com >> Message-ID: <476FFC9F.7090703@ap.net> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed >> >> When you send a request for lookup, do you also send along a donation? >> >> Frank >> >> >> Michelle and Kevin Cassidy wrote: >> >>>I have had a devil of a time finding marriages of certain couples. >>>One would assume that for a couple to marry they must live near each >>>other at some point or marry someone that lived near a friend, job or >>>relative. >>> >>>I have one couple that married in 1905 at Epiphany near the bride's >>>home in the East 20s but the groom lived on East 88th Street. Since >>>brides particularly do not show up in the city directory as a single >>>woman how have you found more difficult couples? I write to the >>>surrounding parishes and more often than not it is a bust. Also many >>>of the parishes are not so eager to look stuff up. Any tried and true >>>suggestions? >>> >>>The lack of full compliance by the priests in the civil recording of >>>weddings with the Health Department before 1908 has complicated the >>>matter in 2007. Unfortunately, the 5 marriages I am seeking took >>>place c. 1881, c.1886, c. 1890, c.1898 and c. 1900. None of these >>>five show up on the IGG site marriage index. I have church >>>certificates for several marriages that do not appear on the IGG >>>site; 1878, 1881, 1882, 1892 and 1903. >>> >>>------------------------------- >>>To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >>>without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 3 >> Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 12:57:29 -0600 >> From: Michelle and Kevin Cassidy <kmct@earthlink.net> >> Subject: Re: [IRISH-NYC] Distance between parishes of couples >> To: irish-new-york-city@rootsweb.com >> Message-ID: <D72998C5-9686-4B8A-B6A1-661BB4E14DA4@earthlink.net> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed >> >> Yes, I do send a donation. I have started calling first to make sure >> I send the correct amount. It is up to $25 at some places. They do >> not always cash the checks right away. Sometimes they forget to send >> a letter saying they did not find a marriage despite having a SASE >> with the check. The check clears and when called they say they >> thought they sent me a note. The letter then comes in a different >> envelope than the one I sent. Did they even check or just take the >> money and run? Most have been very cordial and helpful but a few have >> been very rude. >> >> One priest in particular comes to mind. I know they do not exist to >> serve our genealogical curiosity but hiring a professional will not >> make my request go away. He seems to think that I would rather pay >> him $25 for a chance that they were married at his parish and get >> minimal details when I could pay Muni Archives $15 and get much >> information on a civil record. I could also rent the film from the >> FHL for $5.50 or send a request for a copy through the FHL for 8 >> copies at $16. He did not believe me when I shared that many Catholic >> marriages do not have a civil record from before 1915. I challenged >> him to pull ten marriages from his records between 1866-1907 and see >> how many do not show up on the IGG index. Even Milton Hershey's 1898 >> wedding at St. Patrick's did not get turned into the Health >> Department. Marriage records unlike the baptismal records are public >> records. They were supposed to be turned in at the time of the >> wedding. The archdiocese should do the right thing and turn in copies >> of all these marriage records from before 1915. They would eliminate >> requests like ours and provide a huge amount of goodwill for themselves. >> >> >> On Dec 24, 2007, at 12:38 PM, Frank McCullough wrote: >> >>> When you send a request for lookup, do you also send along a donation? >>> >>> Frank >>> >>> >>> Michelle and Kevin Cassidy wrote: >>> >>>> I have had a devil of a time finding marriages of certain couples. >>>> One would assume that for a couple to marry they must live near each >>>> other at some point or marry someone that lived near a friend, job or >>>> relative. >>>> >>>> I have one couple that married in 1905 at Epiphany near the bride's >>>> home in the East 20s but the groom lived on East 88th Street. Since >>>> brides particularly do not show up in the city directory as a single >>>> woman how have you found more difficult couples? I write to the >>>> surrounding parishes and more often than not it is a bust. Also many >>>> of the parishes are not so eager to look stuff up. Any tried and true >>>> suggestions? >>>> >>>> The lack of full compliance by the priests in the civil recording of >>>> weddings with the Health Department before 1908 has complicated the >>>> matter in 2007. Unfortunately, the 5 marriages I am seeking took >>>> place c. 1881, c.1886, c. 1890, c.1898 and c. 1900. None of these >>>> five show up on the IGG site marriage index. I have church >>>> certificates for several marriages that do not appear on the IGG >>>> site; 1878, 1881, 1882, 1892 and 1903. >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRISH-NEW- >>>> YORK-CITY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>>> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRISH-NEW- >>> YORK-CITY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 4 >> Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 13:53:44 -0800 >> From: Frank McCullough <frank@ap.net> >> Subject: Re: [IRISH-NYC] Distance between parishes of couples >> To: irish-new-york-city@rootsweb.com >> Message-ID: <47702A68.3070806@ap.net> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed >> >> Sounds like you've had some negative experiences... >> >> The Church considers marriage a religious Sacrament and not a civil >> event. Therefore they don't feel obligated to report the marriage. Not >> good for us but... >> >> I've had the same problem with some ancestors of mine. I've been unable >> to find their marriage, c 1870, and unable to find him in the 1850 & >> 1860 censuses so I don't know what neighborhood he lived in. I've found >> the baptisms of their children and the wife...marriage of the wife's >> parents, etc...but not their marriage, very frustrating. >> >> I've found, in my "numerous" requests for lookups at these churches, >> that many of the people that do the lookups are volunteers and >> consequently the effort may be lacking. One church, St. Mary's on the >> Lower East Side, required my calling on a half dozen different occasions >> over an 8 month period before the checking was finally done...Her name >> was "Sima" and I'm sure she doesn't want to hear from me again. She was >> very nice though. >> >> Merry Christmas >> >> Frank McCullough >> California >> >> >> Michelle and Kevin Cassidy wrote: >> >>>Yes, I do send a donation. I have started calling first to make sure >>>I send the correct amount. It is up to $25 at some places. They do >>>not always cash the checks right away. Sometimes they forget to send >>>a letter saying they did not find a marriage despite having a SASE >>>with the check. The check clears and when called they say they >>>thought they sent me a note. The letter then comes in a different >>>envelope than the one I sent. Did they even check or just take the >>>money and run? Most have been very cordial and helpful but a few have >>>been very rude. >>> >>>One priest in particular comes to mind. I know they do not exist to >>>serve our genealogical curiosity but hiring a professional will not >>>make my request go away. He seems to think that I would rather pay >>>him $25 for a chance that they were married at his parish and get >>>minimal details when I could pay Muni Archives $15 and get much >>>information on a civil record. I could also rent the film from the >>>FHL for $5.50 or send a request for a copy through the FHL for 8 >>>copies at $16. He did not believe me when I shared that many Catholic >>>marriages do not have a civil record from before 1915. I challenged >>>him to pull ten marriages from his records between 1866-1907 and see >>>how many do not show up on the IGG index. Even Milton Hershey's 1898 >>>wedding at St. Patrick's did not get turned into the Health >>>Department. Marriage records unlike the baptismal records are public >>>records. They were supposed to be turned in at the time of the >>>wedding. The archdiocese should do the right thing and turn in copies >>>of all these marriage records from before 1915. They would eliminate >>>requests like ours and provide a huge amount of goodwill for themselves. >>> >>> >>>On Dec 24, 2007, at 12:38 PM, Frank McCullough wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>>When you send a request for lookup, do you also send along a donation? >>>> >>>>Frank >>>> >>>> >>>>Michelle and Kevin Cassidy wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>I have had a devil of a time finding marriages of certain couples. >>>>>One would assume that for a couple to marry they must live near each >>>>>other at some point or marry someone that lived near a friend, job or >>>>>relative. >>>>> >>>>>I have one couple that married in 1905 at Epiphany near the bride's >>>>>home in the East 20s but the groom lived on East 88th Street. Since >>>>>brides particularly do not show up in the city directory as a single >>>>>woman how have you found more difficult couples? I write to the >>>>>surrounding parishes and more often than not it is a bust. Also many >>>>>of the parishes are not so eager to look stuff up. Any tried and true >>>>>suggestions? >>>>> >>>>>The lack of full compliance by the priests in the civil recording of >>>>>weddings with the Health Department before 1908 has complicated the >>>>>matter in 2007. Unfortunately, the 5 marriages I am seeking took >>>>>place c. 1881, c.1886, c. 1890, c.1898 and c. 1900. None of these >>>>>five show up on the IGG site marriage index. I have church >>>>>certificates for several marriages that do not appear on the IGG >>>>>site; 1878, 1881, 1882, 1892 and 1903. >>>>> >>>>>------------------------------- >>>>>To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRISH-NEW- >>>>>YORK-CITY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>>>>the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>------------------------------- >>>>To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRISH-NEW- >>>>YORK-CITY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>>>the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>>------------------------------- >>>To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >>>without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 5 >> Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 16:11:13 -0600 >> From: Michelle and Kevin Cassidy <kmct@earthlink.net> >> Subject: Re: [IRISH-NYC] Distance between parishes of couples >> To: irish-new-york-city@rootsweb.com >> Message-ID: <D743EA4B-F7DC-4220-B484-D9145D8A4EDF@earthlink.net> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed >> >> >> The church does celebrate marriage as a sacrament but it understands >> that it serves a purely civil purpose as well and that the state can >> require a license or require a reporting of a marriage; for >> inheritance and other reasons. The Irish priests in Ireland were >> recording civil records of marriage with the government in 1864 and >> later. It amazes me that the priests here felt comfortable ignoring >> the state law in NY requiring them to do likewise. (Are the fines >> still in effect or has the statute of limitations run? It was $50 an >> omission until 1890 or so and then went to $100. That would add up >> especially with interest.) >> >> I especially find it annoying that since the 19th-century priests did >> not do their civic duty we have such a chore on our hands to find the >> marriage yet Fr. is annoyed with you and me and it never dawns on him >> that his predecessors are ultimately responsible and his superiors >> are doing nothing to expedite the correction. I can only imagine that >> since Chicago's older records are available through the FHL that they >> have few requests at the parish level. >> >> I will stop complaining and wait to read others tales of success with >> parish marriage searches! >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 6 >> Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 21:02:16 -0500 >> From: "Melanie Egan" <megan@cfl.rr.com> >> Subject: Re: [IRISH-NYC] Distance between parishes of couples >> To: <irish-new-york-city@rootsweb.com> >> Message-ID: <015901c8469a$2ccadf60$060ba8c0@LAPTOPEGAN> >> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; >> reply-type=original >> >> I agree with you! I can't find civil marriage records for any of my >> relatives married in the 1870's and 1880's. I've sent numerous letters >> to >> parishes and it is hard to know if they even looked or even if it is the >> right parish. I can see that they have many other things to do, but then >> perhaps the books should be allowed to be microfilmed or copied so that >> the >> information would be available and they wouldn't be bothered. Does >> anyone >> know if this type of project is possible? There is a wealth of >> information >> there. >> >> One parish that has been amazing with baptisms is Immaculate Conception. >> They have twice sent a photocopy of the baptismal records for 6 or 7 >> children of the ancestors I was researching. They truly made an extra >> effort which was so helpful. We didn't know many of the children existed >> because they died so young. >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Michelle and Kevin Cassidy" <kmct@earthlink.net> >> To: <irish-new-york-city@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 5:11 PM >> Subject: Re: [IRISH-NYC] Distance between parishes of couples >> >> >>> >>> The church does celebrate marriage as a sacrament but it understands >>> that it serves a purely civil purpose as well and that the state can >>> require a license or require a reporting of a marriage; for >>> inheritance and other reasons. The Irish priests in Ireland were >>> recording civil records of marriage with the government in 1864 and >>> later. It amazes me that the priests here felt comfortable ignoring >>> the state law in NY requiring them to do likewise. (Are the fines >>> still in effect or has the statute of limitations run? It was $50 an >>> omission until 1890 or so and then went to $100. That would add up >>> especially with interest.) >>> >>> I especially find it annoying that since the 19th-century priests did >>> not do their civic duty we have such a chore on our hands to find the >>> marriage yet Fr. is annoyed with you and me and it never dawns on him >>> that his predecessors are ultimately responsible and his superiors >>> are doing nothing to expedite the correction. I can only imagine that >>> since Chicago's older records are available through the FHL that they >>> have few requests at the parish level. >>> >>> I will stop complaining and wait to read others tales of success with >>> parish marriage searches! >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >>> without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 7 >> Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 23:59:23 -0600 >> From: Michelle and Kevin Cassidy <kmct@earthlink.net> >> Subject: Re: [IRISH-NYC] Distance between parishes of couples >> To: irish-new-york-city@rootsweb.com >> Message-ID: <2B72ADAA-D089-478D-A42F-B9C1BCFD4427@earthlink.net> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed >> >> I agree with Immaculate Conception being cooperative and providing >> children one may not have known about. I was provided with my >> ancestor's first wedding and the daughter of this first marriage, his >> brother's marriage and baptism a year later of apparently the only >> child of the brother's marriage and lastly the baptisms of the third >> brother's 5 American-born children. I assume that they must have an >> index. That is not the case at other parishes. >> >> Unfortunately, my ancestor's second marriage did not take place at >> Immaculate Conception. >> >> I am searching the Cassidy brothers. The first and third brothers >> married McKeon sisters in 1878 and 1882. The middle brother had >> married a Murphy in Newry, County Down/Armagh in 1877. The city of >> Newry crosses the river and is in both counties. >> >> I have written the archdiocese and it does not appear that any plans >> are being made to microfilm these records. I suggested that they >> create an index so that we could contact the right parish in a one >> shot deal but they did not take my suggestion seriously. An index >> would provide money for the diocese which could maintain it and >> charge a small fee. The parish could still charge $20 or so which >> would not be so bad if you knew ahead of time that it was the only >> parish you would have to send a check for that item. >> >> Indexing would also minimize the unnecessary searching if the event >> did not take place there and save the pages of the books from more >> wear and tear. >> >> >> On Dec 24, 2007, at 8:02 PM, Melanie Egan wrote: >> >>> I agree with you! I can't find civil marriage records for any of my >>> relatives married in the 1870's and 1880's. I've sent numerous >>> letters to >>> parishes and it is hard to know if they even looked or even if it >>> is the >>> right parish. I can see that they have many other things to do, >>> but then >>> perhaps the books should be allowed to be microfilmed or copied so >>> that the >>> information would be available and they wouldn't be bothered. Does >>> anyone >>> know if this type of project is possible? There is a wealth of >>> information >>> there. >>> >>> One parish that has been amazing with baptisms is Immaculate >>> Conception. >>> They have twice sent a photocopy of the baptismal records for 6 or 7 >>> children of the ancestors I was researching. They truly made an extra >>> effort which was so helpful. We didn't know many of the children >>> existed >>> because they died so young. >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Michelle and Kevin Cassidy" <kmct@earthlink.net> >>> To: <irish-new-york-city@rootsweb.com> >>> Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 5:11 PM >>> Subject: Re: [IRISH-NYC] Distance between parishes of couples >>> >>> >>>> >>>> The church does celebrate marriage as a sacrament but it understands >>>> that it serves a purely civil purpose as well and that the state can >>>> require a license or require a reporting of a marriage; for >>>> inheritance and other reasons. The Irish priests in Ireland were >>>> recording civil records of marriage with the government in 1864 and >>>> later. It amazes me that the priests here felt comfortable ignoring >>>> the state law in NY requiring them to do likewise. (Are the fines >>>> still in effect or has the statute of limitations run? It was $50 an >>>> omission until 1890 or so and then went to $100. That would add up >>>> especially with interest.) >>>> >>>> I especially find it annoying that since the 19th-century priests did >>>> not do their civic duty we have such a chore on our hands to find the >>>> marriage yet Fr. is annoyed with you and me and it never dawns on him >>>> that his predecessors are ultimately responsible and his superiors >>>> are doing nothing to expedite the correction. I can only imagine that >>>> since Chicago's older records are available through the FHL that they >>>> have few requests at the parish level. >>>> >>>> I will stop complaining and wait to read others tales of success with >>>> parish marriage searches! >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >>>> without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRISH-NEW- >>> YORK-CITY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> To contact the IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY list administrator, send an email to >> IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY-admin@rootsweb.com. >> >> To post a message to the IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY mailing list, send an email >> to IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY@rootsweb.com. >> >> __________________________________________________________ >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY-request@rootsweb.com >> with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the >> body >> of the >> email with no additional text. >> >> >> End of IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY Digest, Vol 2, Issue 114 >> *************************************************** >> > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >