I once tried to get information from the Archdiocese and failed. Their system of disseminating to the local parishes for information is trated as a joke by the local parishes. When I wrote a letter complaining that I didn't get and information I received a letter telling me how I should do my research. It appears that the larger the religious division, the more rigid it is in their policy. I find a lot more cooperation in the rural parishes of the State. In the Rochester Diocese you can go to a local college and view the BMD of the diocese in the early 1900s and earlier. Canon Law required parishes to keep records long before the States required it. I don't remember Canon Law stating that the information has to be kept under lock and key. And now that I think of it, since when is the Church so cooperative with such a secular institution as the State of New York? -----Original Message----- From: irish-new-york-city-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:irish-new-york-city-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of irish-new-york-city-request@rootsweb.com Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2007 3:04 AM To: irish-new-york-city@rootsweb.com Subject: IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY Digest, Vol 2, Issue 119 Today's Topics: 1. Re: IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY Digest, Vol 2, Issue 118 (GwenM10100@aol.com) 2. Re: IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY Digest, Vol 2, Issue 118 (user917826@aol.com) 3. Re: IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY Digest, Vol 2, Issue 118 (user917826@aol.com) 4. Re: IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY Digest, Vol 2, Issue 118 (Michelle and Kevin Cassidy) 5. Requesting from parishes (HeirLinesNY@aol.com) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2007 07:41:52 EST From: GwenM10100@aol.com Subject: Re: [IRISH-NYC] IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY Digest, Vol 2, Issue 118 To: irish-new-york-city@rootsweb.com Message-ID: <bcb.1ed8453b.34a79a90@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" In a message dated 12/29/2007 3:20:56 AM Eastern Standard Time, irish-new-york-city-request@rootsweb.com writes: > > 2008 is the Bicentennial of the Archdiocese. There's a lot going on > including an exhibit at the Museum of the City of New York and a Bicentennial > History. Maybe this is the time to ask again about the parish records. I've had > a difficult time too and have yet to get a marriage record. I did get some > baptismal records (just a letter, no certificates) from St. Paul's on East > 117th Street which was a real breaththrough - they were for the 1850s and this > information can't be found in the civil records (I looked at the Municipal > Archives). It took me two tries to get this and yes, I send a donation and a > SASE. > > I think it could be a win/win - the parish would get some added revenue and > we would get the records we need. > Hi. With due respect to those who would like to see these records available online I can think of few things less likely to happen. Church policy has always supported the law in reporting vital records as required to Civil Authorities but beyond that legal mandate, its equally firm commitment has been to protect the individuals receiving its sacraments and keep its own records private and it is entitled to do that. If individual priests failed to comply 100% in reporting and if it could be proved a particular record was not provided, then the churches only obligation would surely be to provide that record to the civil authorities not to the public! The strong and rapidly growing trend these days in many states both in this country and abroad is towards passing laws to make all presently public vital records much less accessible in the interests of homeland security and irrespective of the age of the record. That loss will be of much greater significance to genealogists and focus on addressing that threat is much more urgent (and feasible) than attempting to get the Archdiocese to change its longstanding policy and buck the tide now flowing strongly against disclosure even in the civil arena. Offers of assistance to the Archdiocese in preserving and compiling its records and making them more easily searchable by them in answering legitimate enquiries might be welcomed so long as the privacy of the records was protected in the transcription/scanning process and I would not expect that to result in copies of entire registers becoming publically available. Historically,many churches and civil authorities did allow access and copying in return for the provision of complete microfilmed records and later found their records had been misused. Few present day parishes have the resources to handle requests for records (especially old records or those of now defunct parishes) for other than the most pressing official reasons and see no neccessity to search for hours to satisfy curiosity (as they see it) especially if the event is not known for sure to have occured in that parish in the first place. The manpower hours to do such a project, would be astronomical, just getting the 1930 census ready for online use required every name being transcribed seperately by two individuals and then compared and every discrepancy was then reviewed by a third person for resolution! Those were public records with no privacy concerns! A very large grant from a charitable organization to fund compilation and preservation of all parish records for the archdiocese and made to an organization capable of mounting such an initiative, recruiting the volunteers and establishing quality control would be the way to approach this rather than trying to pressure the Archdiocese. Even then expectation of greater access as a result should be realistic! Just my 2 cents Gwen McC. NJ ************************************** See AOL's top rated recipes (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004) ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2007 08:05:44 -0500 From: user917826@aol.com Subject: Re: [IRISH-NYC] IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY Digest, Vol 2, Issue 118 To: irish-new-york-city@rootsweb.com Message-ID: <8CA1832A81C43C0-A04-2063@webmail-dd10.sysops.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi.. One can search the Archives if one has a idea of the Parish in Philadelphia. There is a fee of $25, as? I recall, but it may have gone up.? It also takes about 5 months to get a reply.? I do believe that these parishes could make a fair amount of money if they would take requests seriously and charge for the time and effort.? I have recently sent off two research request payments to Anglican Churches in Brooklyn.? I have made others that were executed for free but in these cases I sent a specified donation.? I have not heard from either.? It would be truly wonderful if we could find ways to get ALL church records organized and accessible, but until then, I wish the Archdiocese would realize that?it could truly profit by making an effort to work with the genealogical community. Bev W -----Original Message----- From: GwenM10100@aol.com To: irish-new-york-city@rootsweb.com Sent: Sat, 29 Dec 2007 7:41 am Subject: Re: [IRISH-NYC] IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY Digest, Vol 2, Issue 118 In a message dated 12/29/2007 3:20:56 AM Eastern Standard Time, irish-new-york-city-request@rootsweb.com writes: > > 2008 is the Bicentennial of the Archdiocese. There's a lot going on > including an exhibit at the Museum of the City of New York and a Bicentennial > History. Maybe this is the time to ask again about the parish records. I've had > a difficult time too and have yet to get a marriage record. I did get some > baptismal records (just a letter, no certificates) from St. Paul's on East > 117th Street which was a real breaththrough - they were for the 1850s and this > information can't be found in the civil records (I looked at the Municipal > Archives). It took me two tries to get this and yes, I send a donation and a > SASE. > > I think it could be a win/win - the parish would get some added revenue and > we would get the records we need. > Hi. With due respect to those who would like to see these records available online I can think of few things less likely to happen. Church policy has always supported the law in reporting vital records as required to Civil Authorities but beyond that legal mandate, its equally firm commitment has been to protect the individuals receiving its sacraments and keep its own records private and it is entitled to do that. If individual priests failed to comply 100% in reporting and if it could be proved a particular record was not provided, then the churches only obligation would surely be to provide that record to the civil authorities not to the public! The strong and rapidly growing trend these days in many states both in this country and abroad is towards passing laws to make all presently public vital records much less accessible in the interests of homeland security and irrespective of the age of the record. That loss will be of much greater significance to genealogists and focus on addressing that threat is much more urgent (and feasible) than attempting to get the Archdiocese to change its longstanding policy and buck the tide now flowing strongly against disclosure even in the civil arena. Offers of assistance to the Archdiocese in preserving and compiling its records and making them more easily searchable by them in answering legitimate enquiries might be welcomed so long as the privacy of the records was protected in the transcription/scanning process and I would not expect that to result in copies of entire registers becoming publically available. Historically,many churches and civil authorities did allow access and copying in return for the provision of complete microfilmed records and later found their records had been misused. Few present day parishes have the resources to handle requests for records (especially old records or those of now defunct parishes) for other than the most pressing official reasons and see no neccessity to search for hours to satisfy curiosity (as they see it) especially if the event is not known for sure to have occured in that parish in the first place. The manpower hours to do such a project, would be astronomical, just getting the 1930 census ready for online use required every name being transcribed seperately by two individuals and then compared and every discrepancy was then reviewed by a third person for resolution! Those were public records with no privacy concerns! A very large grant from a charitable organization to fund compilation and preservation of all parish records for the archdiocese and made to an organization capable of mounting such an initiative, recruiting the volunteers and establishing quality control would be the way to approach this rather than trying to pressure the Archdiocese. Even then expectation of greater access as a result should be realistic! Just my 2 cents Gwen McC. NJ ************************************** See AOL's top rated recipes (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004) ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2007 08:14:03 -0500 From: user917826@aol.com Subject: Re: [IRISH-NYC] IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY Digest, Vol 2, Issue 118 To: irish-new-york-city@rootsweb.com Message-ID: <8CA1833D12E95EE-A04-20AD@webmail-dd10.sysops.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Forgive the? typos.? I am on my son's laptop which has a mind of its own. Bev W -----Original Message----- From: user917826@aol.com To: irish-new-york-city@rootsweb.com Sent: Sat, 29 Dec 2007 8:05 am Subject: Re: [IRISH-NYC] IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY Digest, Vol 2, Issue 118 Hi.. One can search the Archives if one has a idea of the Parish in Philadelphia. There is a fee of $25, as? I recall, but it may have gone up.? It also takes about 5 months to get a reply.? I do believe that these parishes could make a fair amount of money if they would take requests seriously and charge for the time and effort.? I have recently sent off two research request payments to Anglican Churches in Brooklyn.? I have made others that were executed for free but in these cases I sent a specified donation.? I have not heard from either.? It would be truly wonderful if we could find ways to get ALL church records organized and accessible, but until then, I wish the Archdiocese would realize that?it could truly profit by making an effort to work with the genealogical community. Bev W -----Original Message----- From: GwenM10100@aol.com To: irish-new-york-city@rootsweb.com Sent: Sat, 29 Dec 2007 7:41 am Subject: Re: [IRISH-NYC] IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY Digest, Vol 2, Issue 118 In a message dated 12/29/2007 3:20:56 AM Eastern Standard Time, irish-new-york-city-request@rootsweb.com writes: > > 2008 is the Bicentennial of the Archdiocese. There's a lot going on > including an exhibit at the Museum of the City of New York and a Bicentennial > History. Maybe this is the time to ask again about the parish records. I've had > a difficult time too and have yet to get a marriage record. I did get some > baptismal records (just a letter, no certificates) from St. Paul's on East > 117th Street which was a real breaththrough - they were for the 1850s and this > information can't be found in the civil records (I looked at the Municipal > Archives). It took me two tries to get this and yes, I send a donation and a > SASE. > > I think it could be a win/win - the parish would get some added revenue and > we would get the records we need. > Hi. With due respect to those who would like to see these records available online I can think of few things less likely to happen. Church policy has always supported the law in reporting vital records as required to Civil Authorities but beyond that legal mandate, its equally firm commitment has been to protect the individuals receiving its sacraments and keep its own records private and it is entitled to do that. If individual priests failed to comply 100% in reporting and if it could be proved a particular record was not provided, then the churches only obligation would surely be to provide that record to the civil authorities not to the public! The strong and rapidly growing trend these days in many states both in this country and abroad is towards passing laws to make all presently public vital records much less accessible in the interests of homeland security and irrespective of the age of the record. That loss will be of much greater significance to genealogists and focus on addressing that threat is much more urgent (and feasible) than attempting to get the Archdiocese to change its longstanding policy and buck the tide now flowing strongly against disclosure even in the civil arena. Offers of assistance to the Archdiocese in preserving and compiling its records and making them more easily searchable by them in answering legitimate enquiries might be welcomed so long as the privacy of the records was protected in the transcription/scanning process and I would not expect that to result in copies of entire registers becoming publically available. Historically,many churches and civil authorities did allow access and copying in return for the provision of complete microfilmed records and later found their records had been misused. Few present day parishes have the resources to handle requests for records (especially old records or those of now defunct parishes) for other than the most pressing official reasons and see no neccessity to search for hours to satisfy curiosity (as they see it) especially if the event is not known for sure to have occured in that parish in the first place. The manpower hours to do such a project, would be astronomical, just getting the 1930 census ready for online use required every name being transcribed seperately by two individuals and then compared and every discrepancy was then reviewed by a third person for resolution! Those were public records with no privacy concerns! A very large grant from a charitable organization to fund compilation and preservation of all parish records for the archdiocese and made to an organization capable of mounting such an initiative, recruiting the volunteers and establishing quality control would be the way to approach this rather than trying to pressure the Archdiocese. Even then expectation of greater access as a result should be realistic! Just my 2 cents Gwen McC. NJ ************************************** See AOL's top rated recipes (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004) ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2007 18:53:24 -0600 From: Michelle and Kevin Cassidy <kmct@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: [IRISH-NYC] IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY Digest, Vol 2, Issue 118 To: irish-new-york-city@rootsweb.com Message-ID: <65E5C836-447D-4C09-BCD2-7D8160CCD4EF@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed It has been mentioned that there are privacy concerns but isn't the point of wedding banns a public announcement to see if anyone knows why these two people can't get married? If they had no privacy three weeks before the wedding how do they have an absolute right to privacy today? Baptisms and illegitimacy are different but marriage is public. There may be a handful of exceptions but since the US is not and has not been a totalitarian society, I doubt there are any "secret marriages" that might have occurred in ancient Rome or elsewhere. It has also been suggested that if a wedding went unrecorded then the Church would provide details for that marriage to the City not the public. Since most of the registers are not public we do not know how many went unrecorded but St. Raphael on West 41st Street is available through the FHL. I photocopied weddings between September 1, 1886 when they began at St. Raphael through 1908. Out of the total of 1,508 weddings listed in the marriage register at St. Raphael?s, only 480 were also registered with the NYC Department of Health; this is a mere 31.8%. During the first 7 1/3 years not a single one of St. Raphael?s weddings was recorded with the city. One can only imagine that the numbers are similar if not worse in other parishes. Since the City has made their marriage records public from 1853-1937 it is a moot point that the Church won't do that. If the Church turned in the registers today any marriage from before 1938 at least would be made public by the City. There is no if about it. Many if not most Catholic weddings went unrecorded with the proper civil authorities. As far as the manpower, it will take the time it needs. If we get a lot of volunteers it would take less time. Catholic records are pretty short in the 19th-century; Groom married Bride with Witness 1 Witness 2 by Priest. That is going to be 95% of the marriages. That would not take much time. Having typed in the stuff for grooms and naturalizations myself on the IGG it was not very time consuming. I think the index would be best if privacy is a concern. If it is not a real issue then microfilming is the way to go. Catholics are the largest group of Christians in the USA and the second largest group of Christians is people who used to be Catholic. That would mean that many if not most of America has at least some ancestor in the Catholic sacramental records of NYC. If the parishes don't have the staff to search for events that the researcher is not sure took place there then how is the status quo fixing that? Yes, I have 5 marriages I am searching for and no date of marriage and no exact place. Just addresses from the city directory and census. If I write to parish A and get the run around, do I stop or write to parish B? If parish A is the actual place of the wedding, then how does stonewalling me help anyone? All it does is send the pushy genealogist on to the next parish and so on and so on. If they would each index or allow their marriage records to be indexed, then the right parish could be identified from the resulting master index which could be kept at the chancery. That would preserve privacy, eliminate goose chases and infuse some cash into the archdiocese and her parishes. Since other dioceses have allowed the filming of their records then this is not a matter of it is forbidden like using milk instead of wine at Mass. This is a choice and it seems a bit wrong to say that the records that legally were supposed to be turned a century ago are now "private". If Chicago is filmed and all of Ireland too, then why not NYC? This is not a dogma or doctrine that is preventing easier access to the records. It is hubris and apparently the news stories the last five years have not brought about the humility one would expect. Father "X" told me records are for the living. I disagree and assert that records are to reveal the present to the future. We are the future of those records were created for. They ask why is it such a big deal that you know all this stuff? Fair enough, I can give a logical answer. I ask back though, why is it such a big deal that your prevent me from learning these details? They spend more time stonewalling than they would simply to do the search and either issue the certificate or a letter saying it was not found there. People just want to find their ancestors' records. It would be a good gesture if the archdiocese moved forward making these records more accessible. Is that really too much to ask? ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2007 03:03:04 EST From: HeirLinesNY@aol.com Subject: [IRISH-NYC] Requesting from parishes To: IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY@rootsweb.com Message-ID: <c46.27184ab3.34a8aab8@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" How right you are! I live in NYC and have witnessed the same. Some parishes have a part time person, whose native language is not English, to search records. [I engage the person on the phone and have asked and learned this, and always ask their names.] If you do not provide alternative spellings or dates, they do not attempt that on their own. So you as the buyer, you might clearly state what you seek. Also, make it like a simple list, not a long letter. In various parishes the part time research people may work one day per week or, as is the case of a few parishes, from 5-7pm weekdays, doubling as a receptionist. And/or the person may be a volunteer who is their from the goodness of their hearts, but doesn't know what the heck they are doing, or doesn't care, or can't transcribe handwritten original records. Besides, some of these people don't "get" why we are interested. (My opinion.) Once, when a parish mailed me a requested copy, I saw a portion of handwritten information in the margins. Then, I phoned them & asked about the cut off section and found out they had more information about the marrying couple or baptismal parents, than was on the actual certificates, such as the home address of the family, or native origin of the parents. Now, I always ask for all data, beside what was on the documents, and ask cemeteries who purchased the plot, their address, and the date. Let's be frank folks, there are 2 issues involved: money and "man"power. In my experience, if you make it easy for them to retrieve your records, they usually cooperate. You really must be willing to send a "donation." Either include something or phone ahead to ask their preferred amount. In my experience the best Manhattan parish is St. Patrick's Old Cathedral. The second best is the parish who receives requests from now extinct, St. Alphonus German Catholic Church, that was demolished for the buidling of the WTC. It is all a business. Unfortunately, money talks. Can any NYer imagine how many records the Archdiocese of NY has, or that they will ever prioritize digitalizing these records? TVRL524@aol.com writes: > I think a lot depends on who is working on the day you contact them. ************************************** See AOL's top rated recipes (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004) ------------------------------ To contact the IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY list administrator, send an email to IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY-admin@rootsweb.com. To post a message to the IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY mailing list, send an email to IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY@rootsweb.com. __________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY-request@rootsweb.com with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the body of the email with no additional text. End of IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY Digest, Vol 2, Issue 119 ***************************************************