Dear Maureen: I don't have a copy of your original post so I don't know, specifically, what parish you are referring to with this problem. But, I can generally tell you that the parishes (if they still exist or if it one was merged with another) in NYC (New York Archdiocese and Brooklyn Diocese) do have possession of their own parish records. The archivist of the diocese DOES NOT. Unless the parish was disolved and not merged with another. I know the archivist for Brooklyn does have a consolidated inventory (but not the actual records) of that diocese. Now, this is not specifically for you Maureen, but in general it may help others out there... I think you mentioned TX, IL, CA... :) One of the reasons people have difficulty in NYC with church records is that they try to do this before they know where the family was when the event (baptism or marriage) happened. The KEY to research in NYC is: LOCATION, LOCATION, LOCATION. Do not send out fifty letters hoping to get a "hit." It's a waste of postage and a waste of time. I know there are some who have succeeded this way but it's generally not a good idea. You MUST know where the family resided if you want to be successful. You cannot assume that they attended the same church every decade or even every year. Some families moved every single year (in the 19th century, usually on May 1, which was moving day - most leases expired on that day). So, it is critical, before you attempt to cover church records, and before you attempt to do immigration or naturalization records, that you do all of the basics, EVERY bit of it, which is (first and foremost) thorough census and directory work. Every census (city, state and federal) and directory (year) you can get your hands on. One or two will not be helpful in the long run. Next, make sure you cover any and all deaths that you know about with civil registration (Municipal Archives). This will give you some exact addresses. While you are at it, make sure you check for marriages and births. Irish Catholics (particularly if they were first generation immigrants) generally depended on the church for these rites and did not bother to register - but, you have to check anyway. One child may have been registered and the others not. You never know. Finding just one could give you another address. As a rule, deaths were required to be recorded in order to obtain a burial permit. So, that is one record you know should be there if the person died in NYC no matter what their ethnicity. Remember that NYC was only Manhattan and a part of the Bronx until 1898. Before that date, deaths in the other boroughs were recorded either at the city (Brooklyn) level or by the state (Queens, Staten Island, other Kings Co. towns, etc.) Next, check with the cemeteries (which will be noted on the death certificate or register). Get an interment list for the plot and then look up anyone else (death certificates) who may be buried in the plot. More addresses. Find out who bought the plot, when, and what the address was. Create a timeline by date and event, by address. Next, look for death notices. VERY often, a church may be mentioned. If it is in the timeframe of a birth of another child, you may have a hint of which church to contact for that specific baptism (but not necessarily for others). Obtain wills or letters of administration, particularly if you know they did own property. NOW. You have an event (birth or marriage). You have an address, or two, or twelve. :) Before you go writing to any given parish, plot these out on a map and see what churches were in the vicinity. Plot them all (that are within walking distance), not just one. Some were very ethnic in their congregation makeup so don't assume that the closest was the one they attended. Now, find out WHEN the various parishes were established and whether they are still in existance or whether they've merged with another parish. It will do you no good to contact a church for a baptism in 1875 if the parish wasn't even established until 1910. This information is available and if you cannot locate (many of the churches now have websites) it yourself, someone on this list could probably give you all of that information and a *selection* of churches that would be probable matches for you. You can rule many churches out by doing just this one step. Some of this advice may seem obvious to many people. But, I coach and help out many out-of-towners every day here in NYC and can tell you that these are probably the most common misconceptions about NYC research: One, you cannot assume that your ancestor stood still. They moved and moved often unless they owned property. No, this is not true for everyone. But, it is true for the overwhelming majority. Not everyone who lived in Brooklyn always lived in Brooklyn. :) Many (if not most) families migrated across the river from Manhattan or from Staten Island. Some from NJ or anywhere else you can imagine. Don't assume that they were always where you think they were. Two, your ancestor most likely (particularly if they were Irish Catholic) did not have an uncommon name. I wish I had a nickel for every Patrick Ryan, John Murphy, or Mary Sullivan that ever lived in NYC. I'd be a very rich woman. You have to be careful not to assume that the first person you find with that name is yours... you have to do "whole family" research. Three, don't try to do the hardest tasks before doing the easiest. Do the basics (censuses and directories at the very least) to determine and concretely establish which James McLaughlin or Catherine Burke is YOURS. Work from death back to birth as carefully as you can. Create that timeline. I probably do not need to say this but I will anyway :) ... this is a big town and there are hundreds of Catholic churches. They weren't all established at once and many closed or merged with other parishes as the neighborhood populations changed. You have to narrow down a time and a place for EACH life event. Also, marriages: usually the bride's parish. The first child very often may be baptised at the bride's old parish (even if she and her husband moved away from her parents). This isn't always true, but I'd say it's a 50-50 chance if you can't find the baptism near where the new couple resides. If it's a first born male who is named after the paternal grandfather, you may even want to check the groom's original parish (if you can establish that). Now, you've narrowed down the possibilities to one or two churches. You know both parishes existed in your timeframe. You know both parishes still exist. You have an address and phone number. CALL THEM. Find out the name of the church secretary. This is who you will most likely be dealing with, not the parish priest. Speak with her and let her know you will be writing her for this information but that you'd like to ask a few questions. Do not tell her your entire family history. Just say you are looking for "A" marriage or baptism c. 1882 (or whatever) and ask her what the customary donation would be to have this research done for you. Usually it's about $15-25. One request. Do not send a laundry list unless you want your inquiry ignored. Make it easy for her. Establish a (good) relationship. You may need her again. Do not make any calls or request during the high Holy weeks of Christmas or Easter or during their first communion and confirmation weeks. Be sensitive to what their calendar is like (they may be holding a funeral at the exact time that you call) and if she sounds too busy, ask her when a better time to call would be. Ask her if you should address your request to her or whether someone else handles such inquiries. Some parishes have volunteers who do this. Many are genealogists themselves or belong to a family history society but are parishoners themselves. Again, this all might sound like stupid advice, but you'd be amazed at how many folks get upset because they are under the impression that the church secretary is just sitting there waiting for genealogists to call. :) Remember that your request is just one of hundreds and that it is a very small part of her overall job. Write your letter and address it (inside) to her by name. Thank her for her help on the phone (even if she wasn't helpful, this may put your request at the top of the heap because she knows you will call again if she doesn't respond). Enclose your donation by check, not cash. In the note section of your check, record what you sent the donation for. i.e.: baptism certificate <name, date>. In your written request, make sure you give all the pertinant information: type of record (baptism, marriage), name of the person, date of the event, parents names if it's a baptism. It also may be helpful to her if you include the address where they lived at the time. If she doesn't have the record, she may be able to suggest who does. Enclose a self-addressed stamped envelope. (#10 size) If you are writing for a record that was for a parish that merged into another, make sure you mention the parish by name so she looks in the right register (each parish has their own sets of books even if they merged, prior to the merge). Give her ample time to do the work. Response time for the Municipal Archives is 4-6 weeks (but usually much faster than that). Allow at least that. If you receive your cashed check back from the bank but have not heard from her, then call and ask for her by name (if she doesn't answer the phone herself). Mention that you have your check back but that you haven't received a letter from her regarding the research. She may have a verbal answer for you but has not had time to get the letter out. Each parish is different. Some are much busier than others. Some respond better than others. And, a very few take the donation and do not respond at all. Keep that cancelled check and if that is the case, send a copy of it and THEN direct it to the parish priest along with a copy of your original request (don't forget to keep a copy of this!). But, most will eventually respond even if they do not find the record you are looking for. If you do your homework, you should just be dealing with two or three possible parishes. Expect to receive a "not found" from at least two of them! :) So, that's the skinny from NYC. I'm sure I missed something but others can fill in the gaps. Hope it's helpful. Good luck and best regards. Nancy. PS: If someone has been particularly helpful and you may need to contact them again, send a thank you note. She will appreciate it and it will keep your name in her mind as someone who appreciates what she does. I know, more dumb, obvious advice, but it works... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Maureen" <maureen1024@yahoo.com> To: <IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, May 01, 2002 2:44 AM Subject: Re: [IRISH-NYC] Baptism Cert > The Archivist was an employee at the Archdiocesan Archives. > It was a NJ cousin who handled that part, and it was 10 or > more years ago. I just paid my share of the bill and got > my copies of all the info. Write to (or email) the Diocese > of Newark Archives at Seton Hall University in one of the > Oranges (South Orange?), and see what they can do for you. > > I told that story simply to illustrate the ease with which > records were obtained on one side of the Hudson River, and > the great difficulty everyone seems to have on the other > side of the river. This list needs to have the information > on Catholic Church records permanently displayed for all to > see and use, as a huge majority of Irish NYC was Roman > Catholic. > > Once and for all, let's see if someone of you who is in NYC > can get some definitive answers. The Archdiocese says "the > parishes" and the parishes say "we don't have any records > that old" ...... WELL ..... Who does have them? Where are > they? Can someone in NYC track down an answer that makes > some sense of this for all of us in Texas and Illinois and > California? Can someone start an email campaign to > Archdiocesan administrators to get some action to provide a > method for securing ancestors' records that would be a > win-win for the Archdiocese of NYC and for genealogy > researchers, too? > > Good luck, > Maureen > > --- Peggy Apostolos <peggy.apostolos@itss-inc.com> wrote: > > Maureen, > > > > Do you still happen to have the name and contact info for > > the professional > > researcher that you used to obtain these records? I have > > heard how hard it > > is to access them and it would be beneficial to used > > someone with experience. > > > > Thanks, > > Peggy Apostolos > > River Falls, WI > > > > At 09:05 AM 4/30/2002 -0700, you wrote: > > >In Hudson and > > >Bergen Counties in NJ the old records (1840s-1850s) are > > at > > >the Archdiocese of Newark Archives and you can pay an > > >Archivist by the hour plus copying. I think we got > > >everything for everybody (first communions, > > confirmations, > > >everything) for 1-1/2 hours work at $9 per hour plus > > >copying ..... A REAL STEAL! A professional archivist > > can > > >do in 1-1/2 hours what would take me many days and many > > >trips and many tolls! > > > > > >Maureen > > > > > > > > ==== IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY Mailing List ==== > > Do you miss receiving MISSING LINKS and SOMEBODY'S LINKS? > > If so, > > just subscribe to: > > http://www.petuniapress.com/ > > > > ============================== > > To join Ancestry.com and access our 1.2 billion online > > genealogy records, go to: > > > http://www.ancestry.com/rd/redir.asp?targetid=571&sourceid=1237 > > > > > ===== > Researching: Costello, Lynch, Raftree/Raftery, Doran, Cotter, Shannon, Sullivan, Gansberg, Bove, Zeidt/Seitz, VonAlleman/Wollerman, Amacher, Giefer, Fischer, Marlot, Koch, Hense, Jackler, Alvine, Shook, Shelly, Prichard, Tye, Daly, Early, Greene, Callaghan, Fitzgerald, McGrath > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! 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