Forgive the? typos.? I am on my son's laptop which has a mind of its own. Bev W -----Original Message----- From: user917826@aol.com To: irish-new-york-city@rootsweb.com Sent: Sat, 29 Dec 2007 8:05 am Subject: Re: [IRISH-NYC] IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY Digest, Vol 2, Issue 118 Hi.. One can search the Archives if one has a idea of the Parish in Philadelphia. There is a fee of $25, as? I recall, but it may have gone up.? It also takes about 5 months to get a reply.? I do believe that these parishes could make a fair amount of money if they would take requests seriously and charge for the time and effort.? I have recently sent off two research request payments to Anglican Churches in Brooklyn.? I have made others that were executed for free but in these cases I sent a specified donation.? I have not heard from either.? It would be truly wonderful if we could find ways to get ALL church records organized and accessible, but until then, I wish the Archdiocese would realize that?it could truly profit by making an effort to work with the genealogical community. Bev W -----Original Message----- From: GwenM10100@aol.com To: irish-new-york-city@rootsweb.com Sent: Sat, 29 Dec 2007 7:41 am Subject: Re: [IRISH-NYC] IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY Digest, Vol 2, Issue 118 In a message dated 12/29/2007 3:20:56 AM Eastern Standard Time, irish-new-york-city-request@rootsweb.com writes: > > 2008 is the Bicentennial of the Archdiocese. There's a lot going on > including an exhibit at the Museum of the City of New York and a Bicentennial > History. Maybe this is the time to ask again about the parish records. I've had > a difficult time too and have yet to get a marriage record. I did get some > baptismal records (just a letter, no certificates) from St. Paul's on East > 117th Street which was a real breaththrough - they were for the 1850s and this > information can't be found in the civil records (I looked at the Municipal > Archives). It took me two tries to get this and yes, I send a donation and a > SASE. > > I think it could be a win/win - the parish would get some added revenue and > we would get the records we need. > Hi. With due respect to those who would like to see these records available online I can think of few things less likely to happen. Church policy has always supported the law in reporting vital records as required to Civil Authorities but beyond that legal mandate, its equally firm commitment has been to protect the individuals receiving its sacraments and keep its own records private and it is entitled to do that. If individual priests failed to comply 100% in reporting and if it could be proved a particular record was not provided, then the churches only obligation would surely be to provide that record to the civil authorities not to the public! The strong and rapidly growing trend these days in many states both in this country and abroad is towards passing laws to make all presently public vital records much less accessible in the interests of homeland security and irrespective of the age of the record. That loss will be of much greater significance to genealogists and focus on addressing that threat is much more urgent (and feasible) than attempting to get the Archdiocese to change its longstanding policy and buck the tide now flowing strongly against disclosure even in the civil arena. Offers of assistance to the Archdiocese in preserving and compiling its records and making them more easily searchable by them in answering legitimate enquiries might be welcomed so long as the privacy of the records was protected in the transcription/scanning process and I would not expect that to result in copies of entire registers becoming publically available. Historically,many churches and civil authorities did allow access and copying in return for the provision of complete microfilmed records and later found their records had been misused. Few present day parishes have the resources to handle requests for records (especially old records or those of now defunct parishes) for other than the most pressing official reasons and see no neccessity to search for hours to satisfy curiosity (as they see it) especially if the event is not known for sure to have occured in that parish in the first place. The manpower hours to do such a project, would be astronomical, just getting the 1930 census ready for online use required every name being transcribed seperately by two individuals and then compared and every discrepancy was then reviewed by a third person for resolution! Those were public records with no privacy concerns! A very large grant from a charitable organization to fund compilation and preservation of all parish records for the archdiocese and made to an organization capable of mounting such an initiative, recruiting the volunteers and establishing quality control would be the way to approach this rather than trying to pressure the Archdiocese. Even then expectation of greater access as a result should be realistic! Just my 2 cents Gwen McC. NJ ************************************** See AOL's top rated recipes (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004) ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com

Hi.. One can search the Archives if one has a idea of the Parish in Philadelphia. There is a fee of $25, as? I recall, but it may have gone up.? It also takes about 5 months to get a reply.? I do believe that these parishes could make a fair amount of money if they would take requests seriously and charge for the time and effort.? I have recently sent off two research request payments to Anglican Churches in Brooklyn.? I have made others that were executed for free but in these cases I sent a specified donation.? I have not heard from either.? It would be truly wonderful if we could find ways to get ALL church records organized and accessible, but until then, I wish the Archdiocese would realize that?it could truly profit by making an effort to work with the genealogical community. Bev W -----Original Message----- From: GwenM10100@aol.com To: irish-new-york-city@rootsweb.com Sent: Sat, 29 Dec 2007 7:41 am Subject: Re: [IRISH-NYC] IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY Digest, Vol 2, Issue 118 In a message dated 12/29/2007 3:20:56 AM Eastern Standard Time, irish-new-york-city-request@rootsweb.com writes: > > 2008 is the Bicentennial of the Archdiocese. There's a lot going on > including an exhibit at the Museum of the City of New York and a Bicentennial > History. Maybe this is the time to ask again about the parish records. I've had > a difficult time too and have yet to get a marriage record. I did get some > baptismal records (just a letter, no certificates) from St. Paul's on East > 117th Street which was a real breaththrough - they were for the 1850s and this > information can't be found in the civil records (I looked at the Municipal > Archives). It took me two tries to get this and yes, I send a donation and a > SASE. > > I think it could be a win/win - the parish would get some added revenue and > we would get the records we need. > Hi. With due respect to those who would like to see these records available online I can think of few things less likely to happen. Church policy has always supported the law in reporting vital records as required to Civil Authorities but beyond that legal mandate, its equally firm commitment has been to protect the individuals receiving its sacraments and keep its own records private and it is entitled to do that. If individual priests failed to comply 100% in reporting and if it could be proved a particular record was not provided, then the churches only obligation would surely be to provide that record to the civil authorities not to the public! The strong and rapidly growing trend these days in many states both in this country and abroad is towards passing laws to make all presently public vital records much less accessible in the interests of homeland security and irrespective of the age of the record. That loss will be of much greater significance to genealogists and focus on addressing that threat is much more urgent (and feasible) than attempting to get the Archdiocese to change its longstanding policy and buck the tide now flowing strongly against disclosure even in the civil arena. Offers of assistance to the Archdiocese in preserving and compiling its records and making them more easily searchable by them in answering legitimate enquiries might be welcomed so long as the privacy of the records was protected in the transcription/scanning process and I would not expect that to result in copies of entire registers becoming publically available. Historically,many churches and civil authorities did allow access and copying in return for the provision of complete microfilmed records and later found their records had been misused. Few present day parishes have the resources to handle requests for records (especially old records or those of now defunct parishes) for other than the most pressing official reasons and see no neccessity to search for hours to satisfy curiosity (as they see it) especially if the event is not known for sure to have occured in that parish in the first place. The manpower hours to do such a project, would be astronomical, just getting the 1930 census ready for online use required every name being transcribed seperately by two individuals and then compared and every discrepancy was then reviewed by a third person for resolution! Those were public records with no privacy concerns! A very large grant from a charitable organization to fund compilation and preservation of all parish records for the archdiocese and made to an organization capable of mounting such an initiative, recruiting the volunteers and establishing quality control would be the way to approach this rather than trying to pressure the Archdiocese. Even then expectation of greater access as a result should be realistic! Just my 2 cents Gwen McC. NJ ************************************** See AOL's top rated recipes (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004) ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com

In a message dated 12/29/2007 3:20:56 AM Eastern Standard Time, irish-new-york-city-request@rootsweb.com writes: > > 2008 is the Bicentennial of the Archdiocese. There's a lot going on > including an exhibit at the Museum of the City of New York and a Bicentennial > History. Maybe this is the time to ask again about the parish records. I've had > a difficult time too and have yet to get a marriage record. I did get some > baptismal records (just a letter, no certificates) from St. Paul's on East > 117th Street which was a real breaththrough - they were for the 1850s and this > information can't be found in the civil records (I looked at the Municipal > Archives). It took me two tries to get this and yes, I send a donation and a > SASE. > > I think it could be a win/win - the parish would get some added revenue and > we would get the records we need. > Hi. With due respect to those who would like to see these records available online I can think of few things less likely to happen. Church policy has always supported the law in reporting vital records as required to Civil Authorities but beyond that legal mandate, its equally firm commitment has been to protect the individuals receiving its sacraments and keep its own records private and it is entitled to do that. If individual priests failed to comply 100% in reporting and if it could be proved a particular record was not provided, then the churches only obligation would surely be to provide that record to the civil authorities not to the public! The strong and rapidly growing trend these days in many states both in this country and abroad is towards passing laws to make all presently public vital records much less accessible in the interests of homeland security and irrespective of the age of the record. That loss will be of much greater significance to genealogists and focus on addressing that threat is much more urgent (and feasible) than attempting to get the Archdiocese to change its longstanding policy and buck the tide now flowing strongly against disclosure even in the civil arena. Offers of assistance to the Archdiocese in preserving and compiling its records and making them more easily searchable by them in answering legitimate enquiries might be welcomed so long as the privacy of the records was protected in the transcription/scanning process and I would not expect that to result in copies of entire registers becoming publically available. Historically,many churches and civil authorities did allow access and copying in return for the provision of complete microfilmed records and later found their records had been misused. Few present day parishes have the resources to handle requests for records (especially old records or those of now defunct parishes) for other than the most pressing official reasons and see no neccessity to search for hours to satisfy curiosity (as they see it) especially if the event is not known for sure to have occured in that parish in the first place. The manpower hours to do such a project, would be astronomical, just getting the 1930 census ready for online use required every name being transcribed seperately by two individuals and then compared and every discrepancy was then reviewed by a third person for resolution! Those were public records with no privacy concerns! A very large grant from a charitable organization to fund compilation and preservation of all parish records for the archdiocese and made to an organization capable of mounting such an initiative, recruiting the volunteers and establishing quality control would be the way to approach this rather than trying to pressure the Archdiocese. Even then expectation of greater access as a result should be realistic! Just my 2 cents Gwen McC. NJ ************************************** See AOL's top rated recipes (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004)

I have had both negative and positive results from parishes in the Archdiocese. My grandparents were married in St Veronica's on Christopher St in 1902 and 5 of their 11 children were christened there. The church is now semi closed and all records are at Our Lady of Guadeloupe on W 14 St. I went one afternoon without prior notice and they were very helpful. Even went so far as to mail me findings that they couldn't locate at first. On the other hand, Holy Name of Jesus on W 96 St wasn't helpful at all. I have yet to contact Holy Trinity on W 82 St so I can't speak for them. I also have not yet dealt with St Elizabeth's on W 187 St. but I hear they are very obliging. I think a lot depends on who is working on the day you contact them. Tom **************************************See AOL's top rated recipes (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004)

Below in black is a copy of a correspondence I have started to send to genealogy groups in the NY metro area. If anyone has suggestions or ideas please share them. This is a "problem" that has a solution that is acceptable to everyone. We want the records information, the secretaries want to be left alone and the priests do to. I don't know that the parishes are bankrolling much if any money of this by the end of the day. I agree that the costs are a bit steep but don't envision that there are that many requests every day of the month. My ancestors were all Irish immigrants who arrived in Manhattan between 1871-1925. They were Catholics. I am hoping to get a group of genealogists together to approach the Archdiocese of NY to make their sacramental records more readily available to the public. Many births and weddings went unrecorded in the 19th-century so the baptismal and marriage records are the only documents that exist to substantiate a date of birth, maiden name, relatives' names as witnesses etc. The records exist in their paper form only and are kept at the local parish or successor parish if the church was closed/ torn down. I know this is an odd request but my approaches as an individual have not helped, so I am reaching out to see what groups may be interested in approaching the issue in numbers. I am surprised that the parishes don't realize that the an archdiocesan index would benefit them greatly. If a master index existed the archdiocese could maintain it and charge a fee of say $2 a request. Then once we had the right parish we would write to them and pay an extra 10 or even 20 dollars at the parish. If we knew it was the right parish it would make the cost worthwhile. That is a win win for all involved. The archdiocese would get money it does not get currently. The parish would spend less time on goose chases and be fully compensated for its searches. It would also preserve the books because the book would only be searched for the page needed and no more. This would also eliminate any "privacy" concerns that might be raised.

Although scanning does seem like the best/easiest choice, there is the option of setting up a database such as the new Irish ones. The online record contains the transcription of all the information on the record. Since the information we need are likely lines in a parish register as compared to individual documents, this approach would probably suffice. It would be a matter of someone setting up the database (either the Diocese or a genealogy group), getting access to copies of the registers, and then volunteers keying the information in. It also appears that Immaculate Conception parish already has some kind of database but it isn't available online. It would be a lot of work but imagine the value of the genealogical information! ---- Michelle and Kevin Cassidy <kmct@earthlink.net> wrote: > That would be a great idea. I think there is strength in numbers. I > know that there are Jewish, German and Italian groups. Perhaps if the > Irish researchers along with as many other "Catholic" ethnicities as > possible along with the Jewish group approached the archbishop gently > and privately, he might respond positively. It would also be a good > idea to have bishops(or their archivists) whose records are available > publicly through microfilm to attest that everything is okay in > Chicago etc. > > Lastly, the question is how hard to push if we don't get anything but > a pat on the head? I think a story on one of the morning shows would > be a good start. I am not calling for a hatchet job but if most of > the records in Ireland are available through PRONI or the National > Library and Chicago's are as well, there can not be a canon law > reason as to why NY's records can be kept only in the original book > form. > > Clearly, the parishes mostly detest such requests. Also as clear is > that the pastors and secretaries are woefully ignorant as to the > reality of registration with the Health Department of marriages. They > assume that since they do so today it was always done so why do > researchers bother them with requests when the city ALREADY has a > copy? The answer as we all know is that the City never got copies of > many and I dare say most of the Catholic marriage records between > 1853-1908 for sure. The Canon Law promulgated in 1917 specifically > required priests to not perform marriages that would not be deemed > valid in a municipality. The marriage license law in NY was followed > and full compliance was statistically universal at that point with > possible errors of course. > > Bishop Brancato wrote me a few months ago saying that it would be a > monumental effort and quite expensive. I know the Genealogical > Society of Utah would underwrite it but the proxy baptisms derailed > the FHL getting more than a 1/3 of registers from Ireland. I have to > imagine that is a sticking point. Indexing would be cheaper and > faster and could be done by high school students needing service > hours. The filming would be better long run especially if they can be > scanned online eventually. > > How do we get the ball rolling and organize a group to re-approach > this with the archdiocese? > > > On Dec 28, 2007, at 7:14 AM, Melanie Egan wrote: > > > Perhaps the time has come to plead our case for the records with the > > diocese? I'm sure it was easier in the past just to say "no" to any > > diocesan guidelines but genealogy is now one of the most popular > > "hobbies" > > (seems like more than a hobby!) for Americans. It can be a win for > > the > > diocese in many ways. Certainly the media publicity would be very > > positive > > if the church were to make available records through an index or > > digital > > format , and that could be a source of revenue for them as well. The > > easiest method would just be to allow LDS to scan them, and then of > > course, > > there is the volunteer option of allowing a group like the Italian > > Genealogical Society to index the information. The huge benefit > > would be > > that the information would be preserved forever instead of the > > current risk > > of the records being destroyed in a fire. > > > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

2008 is the Bicentennial of the Archdiocese. There's a lot going on including an exhibit at the Museum of the City of New York and a Bicentennial History. Maybe this is the time to ask again about the parish records. I've had a difficult time too and have yet to get a marriage record. I did get some baptismal records (just a letter, no certificates) from St. Paul's on East 117th Street which was a real breaththrough - they were for the 1850s and this information can't be found in the civil records (I looked at the Municipal Archives). It took me two tries to get this and yes, I send a donation and a SASE. I think it could be a win/win - the parish would get some added revenue and we would get the records we need. Mary> From: irish-new-york-city-request@rootsweb.com> Subject: IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY Digest, Vol 2, Issue 117> To: irish-new-york-city@rootsweb.com> Date: Fri, 28 Dec 2007 08:47:32 -0700> > > > Today's Topics:> > 1. Re: IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY Digest, Vol 2, Issue 114 (Melanie Egan)> 2. Re: IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY Digest, Vol 2, Issue 114> (Michelle and Kevin Cassidy)> > > ----------------------------------------------------------------------> >> >>>>Frank> >>>>the quotes in the subject and the body of the message> >>>>> _________________________________________________________________ The best games are on Xbox 360. Click here for a special offer on an Xbox 360 Console. http://www.xbox.com/en-US/hardware/wheretobuy/

That would be a great idea. I think there is strength in numbers. I know that there are Jewish, German and Italian groups. Perhaps if the Irish researchers along with as many other "Catholic" ethnicities as possible along with the Jewish group approached the archbishop gently and privately, he might respond positively. It would also be a good idea to have bishops(or their archivists) whose records are available publicly through microfilm to attest that everything is okay in Chicago etc. Lastly, the question is how hard to push if we don't get anything but a pat on the head? I think a story on one of the morning shows would be a good start. I am not calling for a hatchet job but if most of the records in Ireland are available through PRONI or the National Library and Chicago's are as well, there can not be a canon law reason as to why NY's records can be kept only in the original book form. Clearly, the parishes mostly detest such requests. Also as clear is that the pastors and secretaries are woefully ignorant as to the reality of registration with the Health Department of marriages. They assume that since they do so today it was always done so why do researchers bother them with requests when the city ALREADY has a copy? The answer as we all know is that the City never got copies of many and I dare say most of the Catholic marriage records between 1853-1908 for sure. The Canon Law promulgated in 1917 specifically required priests to not perform marriages that would not be deemed valid in a municipality. The marriage license law in NY was followed and full compliance was statistically universal at that point with possible errors of course. Bishop Brancato wrote me a few months ago saying that it would be a monumental effort and quite expensive. I know the Genealogical Society of Utah would underwrite it but the proxy baptisms derailed the FHL getting more than a 1/3 of registers from Ireland. I have to imagine that is a sticking point. Indexing would be cheaper and faster and could be done by high school students needing service hours. The filming would be better long run especially if they can be scanned online eventually. How do we get the ball rolling and organize a group to re-approach this with the archdiocese? On Dec 28, 2007, at 7:14 AM, Melanie Egan wrote: > Perhaps the time has come to plead our case for the records with the > diocese? I'm sure it was easier in the past just to say "no" to any > diocesan guidelines but genealogy is now one of the most popular > "hobbies" > (seems like more than a hobby!) for Americans. It can be a win for > the > diocese in many ways. Certainly the media publicity would be very > positive > if the church were to make available records through an index or > digital > format , and that could be a source of revenue for them as well. The > easiest method would just be to allow LDS to scan them, and then of > course, > there is the volunteer option of allowing a group like the Italian > Genealogical Society to index the information. The huge benefit > would be > that the information would be preserved forever instead of the > current risk > of the records being destroyed in a fire. > >

Perhaps the time has come to plead our case for the records with the diocese? I'm sure it was easier in the past just to say "no" to any diocesan guidelines but genealogy is now one of the most popular "hobbies" (seems like more than a hobby!) for Americans. It can be a win for the diocese in many ways. Certainly the media publicity would be very positive if the church were to make available records through an index or digital format , and that could be a source of revenue for them as well. The easiest method would just be to allow LDS to scan them, and then of course, there is the volunteer option of allowing a group like the Italian Genealogical Society to index the information. The huge benefit would be that the information would be preserved forever instead of the current risk of the records being destroyed in a fire. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Genie Coats" <coatsgenie@nc.rr.com> To: <irish-new-york-city@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2007 12:40 PM Subject: Re: [IRISH-NYC] IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY Digest, Vol 2, Issue 114 > Do you think the Diocese of New York will ever hand over the church > marriage > records as suggested? > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <irish-new-york-city-request@rootsweb.com> > To: <irish-new-york-city@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2007 1:00 AM > Subject: IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY Digest, Vol 2, Issue 114 > > >> >> >> Today's Topics: >> >> 1. Distance between parishes of couples (Michelle and Kevin Cassidy) >> 2. Re: Distance between parishes of couples (Frank McCullough) >> 3. Re: Distance between parishes of couples >> (Michelle and Kevin Cassidy) >> 4. Re: Distance between parishes of couples (Frank McCullough) >> 5. Re: Distance between parishes of couples >> (Michelle and Kevin Cassidy) >> 6. Re: Distance between parishes of couples (Melanie Egan) >> 7. Re: Distance between parishes of couples >> (Michelle and Kevin Cassidy) >> >> >> ---------------------------------------------------------------------- >> >> Message: 1 >> Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 12:18:10 -0600 >> From: Michelle and Kevin Cassidy <kmct@earthlink.net> >> Subject: [IRISH-NYC] Distance between parishes of couples >> To: IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY@rootsweb.com >> Message-ID: <53B62FBE-65D6-4A82-BC32-6DAD2ADD57C9@earthlink.net> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed >> >> I have had a devil of a time finding marriages of certain couples. >> One would assume that for a couple to marry they must live near each >> other at some point or marry someone that lived near a friend, job or >> relative. >> >> I have one couple that married in 1905 at Epiphany near the bride's >> home in the East 20s but the groom lived on East 88th Street. Since >> brides particularly do not show up in the city directory as a single >> woman how have you found more difficult couples? I write to the >> surrounding parishes and more often than not it is a bust. Also many >> of the parishes are not so eager to look stuff up. Any tried and true >> suggestions? >> >> The lack of full compliance by the priests in the civil recording of >> weddings with the Health Department before 1908 has complicated the >> matter in 2007. Unfortunately, the 5 marriages I am seeking took >> place c. 1881, c.1886, c. 1890, c.1898 and c. 1900. None of these >> five show up on the IGG site marriage index. I have church >> certificates for several marriages that do not appear on the IGG >> site; 1878, 1881, 1882, 1892 and 1903. >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 2 >> Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 10:38:23 -0800 >> From: Frank McCullough <frank@ap.net> >> Subject: Re: [IRISH-NYC] Distance between parishes of couples >> To: irish-new-york-city@rootsweb.com >> Message-ID: <476FFC9F.7090703@ap.net> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed >> >> When you send a request for lookup, do you also send along a donation? >> >> Frank >> >> >> Michelle and Kevin Cassidy wrote: >> >>>I have had a devil of a time finding marriages of certain couples. >>>One would assume that for a couple to marry they must live near each >>>other at some point or marry someone that lived near a friend, job or >>>relative. >>> >>>I have one couple that married in 1905 at Epiphany near the bride's >>>home in the East 20s but the groom lived on East 88th Street. Since >>>brides particularly do not show up in the city directory as a single >>>woman how have you found more difficult couples? I write to the >>>surrounding parishes and more often than not it is a bust. Also many >>>of the parishes are not so eager to look stuff up. Any tried and true >>>suggestions? >>> >>>The lack of full compliance by the priests in the civil recording of >>>weddings with the Health Department before 1908 has complicated the >>>matter in 2007. Unfortunately, the 5 marriages I am seeking took >>>place c. 1881, c.1886, c. 1890, c.1898 and c. 1900. None of these >>>five show up on the IGG site marriage index. I have church >>>certificates for several marriages that do not appear on the IGG >>>site; 1878, 1881, 1882, 1892 and 1903. >>> >>>------------------------------- >>>To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >>>without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 3 >> Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 12:57:29 -0600 >> From: Michelle and Kevin Cassidy <kmct@earthlink.net> >> Subject: Re: [IRISH-NYC] Distance between parishes of couples >> To: irish-new-york-city@rootsweb.com >> Message-ID: <D72998C5-9686-4B8A-B6A1-661BB4E14DA4@earthlink.net> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed >> >> Yes, I do send a donation. I have started calling first to make sure >> I send the correct amount. It is up to $25 at some places. They do >> not always cash the checks right away. Sometimes they forget to send >> a letter saying they did not find a marriage despite having a SASE >> with the check. The check clears and when called they say they >> thought they sent me a note. The letter then comes in a different >> envelope than the one I sent. Did they even check or just take the >> money and run? Most have been very cordial and helpful but a few have >> been very rude. >> >> One priest in particular comes to mind. I know they do not exist to >> serve our genealogical curiosity but hiring a professional will not >> make my request go away. He seems to think that I would rather pay >> him $25 for a chance that they were married at his parish and get >> minimal details when I could pay Muni Archives $15 and get much >> information on a civil record. I could also rent the film from the >> FHL for $5.50 or send a request for a copy through the FHL for 8 >> copies at $16. He did not believe me when I shared that many Catholic >> marriages do not have a civil record from before 1915. I challenged >> him to pull ten marriages from his records between 1866-1907 and see >> how many do not show up on the IGG index. Even Milton Hershey's 1898 >> wedding at St. Patrick's did not get turned into the Health >> Department. Marriage records unlike the baptismal records are public >> records. They were supposed to be turned in at the time of the >> wedding. The archdiocese should do the right thing and turn in copies >> of all these marriage records from before 1915. They would eliminate >> requests like ours and provide a huge amount of goodwill for themselves. >> >> >> On Dec 24, 2007, at 12:38 PM, Frank McCullough wrote: >> >>> When you send a request for lookup, do you also send along a donation? >>> >>> Frank >>> >>> >>> Michelle and Kevin Cassidy wrote: >>> >>>> I have had a devil of a time finding marriages of certain couples. >>>> One would assume that for a couple to marry they must live near each >>>> other at some point or marry someone that lived near a friend, job or >>>> relative. >>>> >>>> I have one couple that married in 1905 at Epiphany near the bride's >>>> home in the East 20s but the groom lived on East 88th Street. Since >>>> brides particularly do not show up in the city directory as a single >>>> woman how have you found more difficult couples? I write to the >>>> surrounding parishes and more often than not it is a bust. Also many >>>> of the parishes are not so eager to look stuff up. Any tried and true >>>> suggestions? >>>> >>>> The lack of full compliance by the priests in the civil recording of >>>> weddings with the Health Department before 1908 has complicated the >>>> matter in 2007. Unfortunately, the 5 marriages I am seeking took >>>> place c. 1881, c.1886, c. 1890, c.1898 and c. 1900. None of these >>>> five show up on the IGG site marriage index. I have church >>>> certificates for several marriages that do not appear on the IGG >>>> site; 1878, 1881, 1882, 1892 and 1903. >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRISH-NEW- >>>> YORK-CITY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>>> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRISH-NEW- >>> YORK-CITY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 4 >> Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 13:53:44 -0800 >> From: Frank McCullough <frank@ap.net> >> Subject: Re: [IRISH-NYC] Distance between parishes of couples >> To: irish-new-york-city@rootsweb.com >> Message-ID: <47702A68.3070806@ap.net> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed >> >> Sounds like you've had some negative experiences... >> >> The Church considers marriage a religious Sacrament and not a civil >> event. Therefore they don't feel obligated to report the marriage. Not >> good for us but... >> >> I've had the same problem with some ancestors of mine. I've been unable >> to find their marriage, c 1870, and unable to find him in the 1850 & >> 1860 censuses so I don't know what neighborhood he lived in. I've found >> the baptisms of their children and the wife...marriage of the wife's >> parents, etc...but not their marriage, very frustrating. >> >> I've found, in my "numerous" requests for lookups at these churches, >> that many of the people that do the lookups are volunteers and >> consequently the effort may be lacking. One church, St. Mary's on the >> Lower East Side, required my calling on a half dozen different occasions >> over an 8 month period before the checking was finally done...Her name >> was "Sima" and I'm sure she doesn't want to hear from me again. She was >> very nice though. >> >> Merry Christmas >> >> Frank McCullough >> California >> >> >> Michelle and Kevin Cassidy wrote: >> >>>Yes, I do send a donation. I have started calling first to make sure >>>I send the correct amount. It is up to $25 at some places. They do >>>not always cash the checks right away. Sometimes they forget to send >>>a letter saying they did not find a marriage despite having a SASE >>>with the check. The check clears and when called they say they >>>thought they sent me a note. The letter then comes in a different >>>envelope than the one I sent. Did they even check or just take the >>>money and run? Most have been very cordial and helpful but a few have >>>been very rude. >>> >>>One priest in particular comes to mind. I know they do not exist to >>>serve our genealogical curiosity but hiring a professional will not >>>make my request go away. He seems to think that I would rather pay >>>him $25 for a chance that they were married at his parish and get >>>minimal details when I could pay Muni Archives $15 and get much >>>information on a civil record. I could also rent the film from the >>>FHL for $5.50 or send a request for a copy through the FHL for 8 >>>copies at $16. He did not believe me when I shared that many Catholic >>>marriages do not have a civil record from before 1915. I challenged >>>him to pull ten marriages from his records between 1866-1907 and see >>>how many do not show up on the IGG index. Even Milton Hershey's 1898 >>>wedding at St. Patrick's did not get turned into the Health >>>Department. Marriage records unlike the baptismal records are public >>>records. They were supposed to be turned in at the time of the >>>wedding. The archdiocese should do the right thing and turn in copies >>>of all these marriage records from before 1915. They would eliminate >>>requests like ours and provide a huge amount of goodwill for themselves. >>> >>> >>>On Dec 24, 2007, at 12:38 PM, Frank McCullough wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>>When you send a request for lookup, do you also send along a donation? >>>> >>>>Frank >>>> >>>> >>>>Michelle and Kevin Cassidy wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>>I have had a devil of a time finding marriages of certain couples. >>>>>One would assume that for a couple to marry they must live near each >>>>>other at some point or marry someone that lived near a friend, job or >>>>>relative. >>>>> >>>>>I have one couple that married in 1905 at Epiphany near the bride's >>>>>home in the East 20s but the groom lived on East 88th Street. Since >>>>>brides particularly do not show up in the city directory as a single >>>>>woman how have you found more difficult couples? I write to the >>>>>surrounding parishes and more often than not it is a bust. Also many >>>>>of the parishes are not so eager to look stuff up. Any tried and true >>>>>suggestions? >>>>> >>>>>The lack of full compliance by the priests in the civil recording of >>>>>weddings with the Health Department before 1908 has complicated the >>>>>matter in 2007. Unfortunately, the 5 marriages I am seeking took >>>>>place c. 1881, c.1886, c. 1890, c.1898 and c. 1900. None of these >>>>>five show up on the IGG site marriage index. I have church >>>>>certificates for several marriages that do not appear on the IGG >>>>>site; 1878, 1881, 1882, 1892 and 1903. >>>>> >>>>>------------------------------- >>>>>To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRISH-NEW- >>>>>YORK-CITY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>>>>the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>------------------------------- >>>>To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRISH-NEW- >>>>YORK-CITY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>>>the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>>------------------------------- >>>To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >>>without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 5 >> Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 16:11:13 -0600 >> From: Michelle and Kevin Cassidy <kmct@earthlink.net> >> Subject: Re: [IRISH-NYC] Distance between parishes of couples >> To: irish-new-york-city@rootsweb.com >> Message-ID: <D743EA4B-F7DC-4220-B484-D9145D8A4EDF@earthlink.net> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed >> >> >> The church does celebrate marriage as a sacrament but it understands >> that it serves a purely civil purpose as well and that the state can >> require a license or require a reporting of a marriage; for >> inheritance and other reasons. The Irish priests in Ireland were >> recording civil records of marriage with the government in 1864 and >> later. It amazes me that the priests here felt comfortable ignoring >> the state law in NY requiring them to do likewise. (Are the fines >> still in effect or has the statute of limitations run? It was $50 an >> omission until 1890 or so and then went to $100. That would add up >> especially with interest.) >> >> I especially find it annoying that since the 19th-century priests did >> not do their civic duty we have such a chore on our hands to find the >> marriage yet Fr. is annoyed with you and me and it never dawns on him >> that his predecessors are ultimately responsible and his superiors >> are doing nothing to expedite the correction. I can only imagine that >> since Chicago's older records are available through the FHL that they >> have few requests at the parish level. >> >> I will stop complaining and wait to read others tales of success with >> parish marriage searches! >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 6 >> Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 21:02:16 -0500 >> From: "Melanie Egan" <megan@cfl.rr.com> >> Subject: Re: [IRISH-NYC] Distance between parishes of couples >> To: <irish-new-york-city@rootsweb.com> >> Message-ID: <015901c8469a$2ccadf60$060ba8c0@LAPTOPEGAN> >> Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; >> reply-type=original >> >> I agree with you! I can't find civil marriage records for any of my >> relatives married in the 1870's and 1880's. I've sent numerous letters >> to >> parishes and it is hard to know if they even looked or even if it is the >> right parish. I can see that they have many other things to do, but then >> perhaps the books should be allowed to be microfilmed or copied so that >> the >> information would be available and they wouldn't be bothered. Does >> anyone >> know if this type of project is possible? There is a wealth of >> information >> there. >> >> One parish that has been amazing with baptisms is Immaculate Conception. >> They have twice sent a photocopy of the baptismal records for 6 or 7 >> children of the ancestors I was researching. They truly made an extra >> effort which was so helpful. We didn't know many of the children existed >> because they died so young. >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Michelle and Kevin Cassidy" <kmct@earthlink.net> >> To: <irish-new-york-city@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 5:11 PM >> Subject: Re: [IRISH-NYC] Distance between parishes of couples >> >> >>> >>> The church does celebrate marriage as a sacrament but it understands >>> that it serves a purely civil purpose as well and that the state can >>> require a license or require a reporting of a marriage; for >>> inheritance and other reasons. The Irish priests in Ireland were >>> recording civil records of marriage with the government in 1864 and >>> later. It amazes me that the priests here felt comfortable ignoring >>> the state law in NY requiring them to do likewise. (Are the fines >>> still in effect or has the statute of limitations run? It was $50 an >>> omission until 1890 or so and then went to $100. That would add up >>> especially with interest.) >>> >>> I especially find it annoying that since the 19th-century priests did >>> not do their civic duty we have such a chore on our hands to find the >>> marriage yet Fr. is annoyed with you and me and it never dawns on him >>> that his predecessors are ultimately responsible and his superiors >>> are doing nothing to expedite the correction. I can only imagine that >>> since Chicago's older records are available through the FHL that they >>> have few requests at the parish level. >>> >>> I will stop complaining and wait to read others tales of success with >>> parish marriage searches! >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >>> without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> Message: 7 >> Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 23:59:23 -0600 >> From: Michelle and Kevin Cassidy <kmct@earthlink.net> >> Subject: Re: [IRISH-NYC] Distance between parishes of couples >> To: irish-new-york-city@rootsweb.com >> Message-ID: <2B72ADAA-D089-478D-A42F-B9C1BCFD4427@earthlink.net> >> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed >> >> I agree with Immaculate Conception being cooperative and providing >> children one may not have known about. I was provided with my >> ancestor's first wedding and the daughter of this first marriage, his >> brother's marriage and baptism a year later of apparently the only >> child of the brother's marriage and lastly the baptisms of the third >> brother's 5 American-born children. I assume that they must have an >> index. That is not the case at other parishes. >> >> Unfortunately, my ancestor's second marriage did not take place at >> Immaculate Conception. >> >> I am searching the Cassidy brothers. The first and third brothers >> married McKeon sisters in 1878 and 1882. The middle brother had >> married a Murphy in Newry, County Down/Armagh in 1877. The city of >> Newry crosses the river and is in both counties. >> >> I have written the archdiocese and it does not appear that any plans >> are being made to microfilm these records. I suggested that they >> create an index so that we could contact the right parish in a one >> shot deal but they did not take my suggestion seriously. An index >> would provide money for the diocese which could maintain it and >> charge a small fee. The parish could still charge $20 or so which >> would not be so bad if you knew ahead of time that it was the only >> parish you would have to send a check for that item. >> >> Indexing would also minimize the unnecessary searching if the event >> did not take place there and save the pages of the books from more >> wear and tear. >> >> >> On Dec 24, 2007, at 8:02 PM, Melanie Egan wrote: >> >>> I agree with you! I can't find civil marriage records for any of my >>> relatives married in the 1870's and 1880's. I've sent numerous >>> letters to >>> parishes and it is hard to know if they even looked or even if it >>> is the >>> right parish. I can see that they have many other things to do, >>> but then >>> perhaps the books should be allowed to be microfilmed or copied so >>> that the >>> information would be available and they wouldn't be bothered. Does >>> anyone >>> know if this type of project is possible? There is a wealth of >>> information >>> there. >>> >>> One parish that has been amazing with baptisms is Immaculate >>> Conception. >>> They have twice sent a photocopy of the baptismal records for 6 or 7 >>> children of the ancestors I was researching. They truly made an extra >>> effort which was so helpful. We didn't know many of the children >>> existed >>> because they died so young. >>> >>> >>> >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: "Michelle and Kevin Cassidy" <kmct@earthlink.net> >>> To: <irish-new-york-city@rootsweb.com> >>> Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 5:11 PM >>> Subject: Re: [IRISH-NYC] Distance between parishes of couples >>> >>> >>>> >>>> The church does celebrate marriage as a sacrament but it understands >>>> that it serves a purely civil purpose as well and that the state can >>>> require a license or require a reporting of a marriage; for >>>> inheritance and other reasons. The Irish priests in Ireland were >>>> recording civil records of marriage with the government in 1864 and >>>> later. It amazes me that the priests here felt comfortable ignoring >>>> the state law in NY requiring them to do likewise. (Are the fines >>>> still in effect or has the statute of limitations run? It was $50 an >>>> omission until 1890 or so and then went to $100. That would add up >>>> especially with interest.) >>>> >>>> I especially find it annoying that since the 19th-century priests did >>>> not do their civic duty we have such a chore on our hands to find the >>>> marriage yet Fr. is annoyed with you and me and it never dawns on him >>>> that his predecessors are ultimately responsible and his superiors >>>> are doing nothing to expedite the correction. I can only imagine that >>>> since Chicago's older records are available through the FHL that they >>>> have few requests at the parish level. >>>> >>>> I will stop complaining and wait to read others tales of success with >>>> parish marriage searches! >>>> >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>>> IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >>>> without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRISH-NEW- >>> YORK-CITY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> >> ------------------------------ >> >> To contact the IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY list administrator, send an email to >> IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY-admin@rootsweb.com. >> >> To post a message to the IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY mailing list, send an email >> to IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY@rootsweb.com. >> >> __________________________________________________________ >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY-request@rootsweb.com >> with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the >> body >> of the >> email with no additional text. >> >> >> End of IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY Digest, Vol 2, Issue 114 >> *************************************************** >> > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

Do you think the Diocese of New York will ever hand over the church marriage records as suggested? ----- Original Message ----- From: <irish-new-york-city-request@rootsweb.com> To: <irish-new-york-city@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, December 25, 2007 1:00 AM Subject: IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY Digest, Vol 2, Issue 114 > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Distance between parishes of couples (Michelle and Kevin Cassidy) > 2. Re: Distance between parishes of couples (Frank McCullough) > 3. Re: Distance between parishes of couples > (Michelle and Kevin Cassidy) > 4. Re: Distance between parishes of couples (Frank McCullough) > 5. Re: Distance between parishes of couples > (Michelle and Kevin Cassidy) > 6. Re: Distance between parishes of couples (Melanie Egan) > 7. Re: Distance between parishes of couples > (Michelle and Kevin Cassidy) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 12:18:10 -0600 > From: Michelle and Kevin Cassidy <kmct@earthlink.net> > Subject: [IRISH-NYC] Distance between parishes of couples > To: IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY@rootsweb.com > Message-ID: <53B62FBE-65D6-4A82-BC32-6DAD2ADD57C9@earthlink.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed > > I have had a devil of a time finding marriages of certain couples. > One would assume that for a couple to marry they must live near each > other at some point or marry someone that lived near a friend, job or > relative. > > I have one couple that married in 1905 at Epiphany near the bride's > home in the East 20s but the groom lived on East 88th Street. Since > brides particularly do not show up in the city directory as a single > woman how have you found more difficult couples? I write to the > surrounding parishes and more often than not it is a bust. Also many > of the parishes are not so eager to look stuff up. Any tried and true > suggestions? > > The lack of full compliance by the priests in the civil recording of > weddings with the Health Department before 1908 has complicated the > matter in 2007. Unfortunately, the 5 marriages I am seeking took > place c. 1881, c.1886, c. 1890, c.1898 and c. 1900. None of these > five show up on the IGG site marriage index. I have church > certificates for several marriages that do not appear on the IGG > site; 1878, 1881, 1882, 1892 and 1903. > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 10:38:23 -0800 > From: Frank McCullough <frank@ap.net> > Subject: Re: [IRISH-NYC] Distance between parishes of couples > To: irish-new-york-city@rootsweb.com > Message-ID: <476FFC9F.7090703@ap.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > When you send a request for lookup, do you also send along a donation? > > Frank > > > Michelle and Kevin Cassidy wrote: > >>I have had a devil of a time finding marriages of certain couples. >>One would assume that for a couple to marry they must live near each >>other at some point or marry someone that lived near a friend, job or >>relative. >> >>I have one couple that married in 1905 at Epiphany near the bride's >>home in the East 20s but the groom lived on East 88th Street. Since >>brides particularly do not show up in the city directory as a single >>woman how have you found more difficult couples? I write to the >>surrounding parishes and more often than not it is a bust. Also many >>of the parishes are not so eager to look stuff up. Any tried and true >>suggestions? >> >>The lack of full compliance by the priests in the civil recording of >>weddings with the Health Department before 1908 has complicated the >>matter in 2007. Unfortunately, the 5 marriages I am seeking took >>place c. 1881, c.1886, c. 1890, c.1898 and c. 1900. None of these >>five show up on the IGG site marriage index. I have church >>certificates for several marriages that do not appear on the IGG >>site; 1878, 1881, 1882, 1892 and 1903. >> >>------------------------------- >>To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >>without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> >> > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 12:57:29 -0600 > From: Michelle and Kevin Cassidy <kmct@earthlink.net> > Subject: Re: [IRISH-NYC] Distance between parishes of couples > To: irish-new-york-city@rootsweb.com > Message-ID: <D72998C5-9686-4B8A-B6A1-661BB4E14DA4@earthlink.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed > > Yes, I do send a donation. I have started calling first to make sure > I send the correct amount. It is up to $25 at some places. They do > not always cash the checks right away. Sometimes they forget to send > a letter saying they did not find a marriage despite having a SASE > with the check. The check clears and when called they say they > thought they sent me a note. The letter then comes in a different > envelope than the one I sent. Did they even check or just take the > money and run? Most have been very cordial and helpful but a few have > been very rude. > > One priest in particular comes to mind. I know they do not exist to > serve our genealogical curiosity but hiring a professional will not > make my request go away. He seems to think that I would rather pay > him $25 for a chance that they were married at his parish and get > minimal details when I could pay Muni Archives $15 and get much > information on a civil record. I could also rent the film from the > FHL for $5.50 or send a request for a copy through the FHL for 8 > copies at $16. He did not believe me when I shared that many Catholic > marriages do not have a civil record from before 1915. I challenged > him to pull ten marriages from his records between 1866-1907 and see > how many do not show up on the IGG index. Even Milton Hershey's 1898 > wedding at St. Patrick's did not get turned into the Health > Department. Marriage records unlike the baptismal records are public > records. They were supposed to be turned in at the time of the > wedding. The archdiocese should do the right thing and turn in copies > of all these marriage records from before 1915. They would eliminate > requests like ours and provide a huge amount of goodwill for themselves. > > > On Dec 24, 2007, at 12:38 PM, Frank McCullough wrote: > >> When you send a request for lookup, do you also send along a donation? >> >> Frank >> >> >> Michelle and Kevin Cassidy wrote: >> >>> I have had a devil of a time finding marriages of certain couples. >>> One would assume that for a couple to marry they must live near each >>> other at some point or marry someone that lived near a friend, job or >>> relative. >>> >>> I have one couple that married in 1905 at Epiphany near the bride's >>> home in the East 20s but the groom lived on East 88th Street. Since >>> brides particularly do not show up in the city directory as a single >>> woman how have you found more difficult couples? I write to the >>> surrounding parishes and more often than not it is a bust. Also many >>> of the parishes are not so eager to look stuff up. Any tried and true >>> suggestions? >>> >>> The lack of full compliance by the priests in the civil recording of >>> weddings with the Health Department before 1908 has complicated the >>> matter in 2007. Unfortunately, the 5 marriages I am seeking took >>> place c. 1881, c.1886, c. 1890, c.1898 and c. 1900. None of these >>> five show up on the IGG site marriage index. I have church >>> certificates for several marriages that do not appear on the IGG >>> site; 1878, 1881, 1882, 1892 and 1903. >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRISH-NEW- >>> YORK-CITY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRISH-NEW- >> YORK-CITY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 4 > Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 13:53:44 -0800 > From: Frank McCullough <frank@ap.net> > Subject: Re: [IRISH-NYC] Distance between parishes of couples > To: irish-new-york-city@rootsweb.com > Message-ID: <47702A68.3070806@ap.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > Sounds like you've had some negative experiences... > > The Church considers marriage a religious Sacrament and not a civil > event. Therefore they don't feel obligated to report the marriage. Not > good for us but... > > I've had the same problem with some ancestors of mine. I've been unable > to find their marriage, c 1870, and unable to find him in the 1850 & > 1860 censuses so I don't know what neighborhood he lived in. I've found > the baptisms of their children and the wife...marriage of the wife's > parents, etc...but not their marriage, very frustrating. > > I've found, in my "numerous" requests for lookups at these churches, > that many of the people that do the lookups are volunteers and > consequently the effort may be lacking. One church, St. Mary's on the > Lower East Side, required my calling on a half dozen different occasions > over an 8 month period before the checking was finally done...Her name > was "Sima" and I'm sure she doesn't want to hear from me again. She was > very nice though. > > Merry Christmas > > Frank McCullough > California > > > Michelle and Kevin Cassidy wrote: > >>Yes, I do send a donation. I have started calling first to make sure >>I send the correct amount. It is up to $25 at some places. They do >>not always cash the checks right away. Sometimes they forget to send >>a letter saying they did not find a marriage despite having a SASE >>with the check. The check clears and when called they say they >>thought they sent me a note. The letter then comes in a different >>envelope than the one I sent. Did they even check or just take the >>money and run? Most have been very cordial and helpful but a few have >>been very rude. >> >>One priest in particular comes to mind. I know they do not exist to >>serve our genealogical curiosity but hiring a professional will not >>make my request go away. He seems to think that I would rather pay >>him $25 for a chance that they were married at his parish and get >>minimal details when I could pay Muni Archives $15 and get much >>information on a civil record. I could also rent the film from the >>FHL for $5.50 or send a request for a copy through the FHL for 8 >>copies at $16. He did not believe me when I shared that many Catholic >>marriages do not have a civil record from before 1915. I challenged >>him to pull ten marriages from his records between 1866-1907 and see >>how many do not show up on the IGG index. Even Milton Hershey's 1898 >>wedding at St. Patrick's did not get turned into the Health >>Department. Marriage records unlike the baptismal records are public >>records. They were supposed to be turned in at the time of the >>wedding. The archdiocese should do the right thing and turn in copies >>of all these marriage records from before 1915. They would eliminate >>requests like ours and provide a huge amount of goodwill for themselves. >> >> >>On Dec 24, 2007, at 12:38 PM, Frank McCullough wrote: >> >> >> >>>When you send a request for lookup, do you also send along a donation? >>> >>>Frank >>> >>> >>>Michelle and Kevin Cassidy wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>>I have had a devil of a time finding marriages of certain couples. >>>>One would assume that for a couple to marry they must live near each >>>>other at some point or marry someone that lived near a friend, job or >>>>relative. >>>> >>>>I have one couple that married in 1905 at Epiphany near the bride's >>>>home in the East 20s but the groom lived on East 88th Street. Since >>>>brides particularly do not show up in the city directory as a single >>>>woman how have you found more difficult couples? I write to the >>>>surrounding parishes and more often than not it is a bust. Also many >>>>of the parishes are not so eager to look stuff up. Any tried and true >>>>suggestions? >>>> >>>>The lack of full compliance by the priests in the civil recording of >>>>weddings with the Health Department before 1908 has complicated the >>>>matter in 2007. Unfortunately, the 5 marriages I am seeking took >>>>place c. 1881, c.1886, c. 1890, c.1898 and c. 1900. None of these >>>>five show up on the IGG site marriage index. I have church >>>>certificates for several marriages that do not appear on the IGG >>>>site; 1878, 1881, 1882, 1892 and 1903. >>>> >>>>------------------------------- >>>>To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRISH-NEW- >>>>YORK-CITY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>>>the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>------------------------------- >>>To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRISH-NEW- >>>YORK-CITY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>>the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> >> >> >>------------------------------- >>To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >>without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> >> > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 5 > Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 16:11:13 -0600 > From: Michelle and Kevin Cassidy <kmct@earthlink.net> > Subject: Re: [IRISH-NYC] Distance between parishes of couples > To: irish-new-york-city@rootsweb.com > Message-ID: <D743EA4B-F7DC-4220-B484-D9145D8A4EDF@earthlink.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed > > > The church does celebrate marriage as a sacrament but it understands > that it serves a purely civil purpose as well and that the state can > require a license or require a reporting of a marriage; for > inheritance and other reasons. The Irish priests in Ireland were > recording civil records of marriage with the government in 1864 and > later. It amazes me that the priests here felt comfortable ignoring > the state law in NY requiring them to do likewise. (Are the fines > still in effect or has the statute of limitations run? It was $50 an > omission until 1890 or so and then went to $100. That would add up > especially with interest.) > > I especially find it annoying that since the 19th-century priests did > not do their civic duty we have such a chore on our hands to find the > marriage yet Fr. is annoyed with you and me and it never dawns on him > that his predecessors are ultimately responsible and his superiors > are doing nothing to expedite the correction. I can only imagine that > since Chicago's older records are available through the FHL that they > have few requests at the parish level. > > I will stop complaining and wait to read others tales of success with > parish marriage searches! > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 6 > Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 21:02:16 -0500 > From: "Melanie Egan" <megan@cfl.rr.com> > Subject: Re: [IRISH-NYC] Distance between parishes of couples > To: <irish-new-york-city@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID: <015901c8469a$2ccadf60$060ba8c0@LAPTOPEGAN> > Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1"; > reply-type=original > > I agree with you! I can't find civil marriage records for any of my > relatives married in the 1870's and 1880's. I've sent numerous letters to > parishes and it is hard to know if they even looked or even if it is the > right parish. I can see that they have many other things to do, but then > perhaps the books should be allowed to be microfilmed or copied so that > the > information would be available and they wouldn't be bothered. Does anyone > know if this type of project is possible? There is a wealth of > information > there. > > One parish that has been amazing with baptisms is Immaculate Conception. > They have twice sent a photocopy of the baptismal records for 6 or 7 > children of the ancestors I was researching. They truly made an extra > effort which was so helpful. We didn't know many of the children existed > because they died so young. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michelle and Kevin Cassidy" <kmct@earthlink.net> > To: <irish-new-york-city@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 5:11 PM > Subject: Re: [IRISH-NYC] Distance between parishes of couples > > >> >> The church does celebrate marriage as a sacrament but it understands >> that it serves a purely civil purpose as well and that the state can >> require a license or require a reporting of a marriage; for >> inheritance and other reasons. The Irish priests in Ireland were >> recording civil records of marriage with the government in 1864 and >> later. It amazes me that the priests here felt comfortable ignoring >> the state law in NY requiring them to do likewise. (Are the fines >> still in effect or has the statute of limitations run? It was $50 an >> omission until 1890 or so and then went to $100. That would add up >> especially with interest.) >> >> I especially find it annoying that since the 19th-century priests did >> not do their civic duty we have such a chore on our hands to find the >> marriage yet Fr. is annoyed with you and me and it never dawns on him >> that his predecessors are ultimately responsible and his superiors >> are doing nothing to expedite the correction. I can only imagine that >> since Chicago's older records are available through the FHL that they >> have few requests at the parish level. >> >> I will stop complaining and wait to read others tales of success with >> parish marriage searches! >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 7 > Date: Mon, 24 Dec 2007 23:59:23 -0600 > From: Michelle and Kevin Cassidy <kmct@earthlink.net> > Subject: Re: [IRISH-NYC] Distance between parishes of couples > To: irish-new-york-city@rootsweb.com > Message-ID: <2B72ADAA-D089-478D-A42F-B9C1BCFD4427@earthlink.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed > > I agree with Immaculate Conception being cooperative and providing > children one may not have known about. I was provided with my > ancestor's first wedding and the daughter of this first marriage, his > brother's marriage and baptism a year later of apparently the only > child of the brother's marriage and lastly the baptisms of the third > brother's 5 American-born children. I assume that they must have an > index. That is not the case at other parishes. > > Unfortunately, my ancestor's second marriage did not take place at > Immaculate Conception. > > I am searching the Cassidy brothers. The first and third brothers > married McKeon sisters in 1878 and 1882. The middle brother had > married a Murphy in Newry, County Down/Armagh in 1877. The city of > Newry crosses the river and is in both counties. > > I have written the archdiocese and it does not appear that any plans > are being made to microfilm these records. I suggested that they > create an index so that we could contact the right parish in a one > shot deal but they did not take my suggestion seriously. An index > would provide money for the diocese which could maintain it and > charge a small fee. The parish could still charge $20 or so which > would not be so bad if you knew ahead of time that it was the only > parish you would have to send a check for that item. > > Indexing would also minimize the unnecessary searching if the event > did not take place there and save the pages of the books from more > wear and tear. > > > On Dec 24, 2007, at 8:02 PM, Melanie Egan wrote: > >> I agree with you! I can't find civil marriage records for any of my >> relatives married in the 1870's and 1880's. I've sent numerous >> letters to >> parishes and it is hard to know if they even looked or even if it >> is the >> right parish. I can see that they have many other things to do, >> but then >> perhaps the books should be allowed to be microfilmed or copied so >> that the >> information would be available and they wouldn't be bothered. Does >> anyone >> know if this type of project is possible? There is a wealth of >> information >> there. >> >> One parish that has been amazing with baptisms is Immaculate >> Conception. >> They have twice sent a photocopy of the baptismal records for 6 or 7 >> children of the ancestors I was researching. They truly made an extra >> effort which was so helpful. We didn't know many of the children >> existed >> because they died so young. >> >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Michelle and Kevin Cassidy" <kmct@earthlink.net> >> To: <irish-new-york-city@rootsweb.com> >> Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 5:11 PM >> Subject: Re: [IRISH-NYC] Distance between parishes of couples >> >> >>> >>> The church does celebrate marriage as a sacrament but it understands >>> that it serves a purely civil purpose as well and that the state can >>> require a license or require a reporting of a marriage; for >>> inheritance and other reasons. The Irish priests in Ireland were >>> recording civil records of marriage with the government in 1864 and >>> later. It amazes me that the priests here felt comfortable ignoring >>> the state law in NY requiring them to do likewise. (Are the fines >>> still in effect or has the statute of limitations run? It was $50 an >>> omission until 1890 or so and then went to $100. That would add up >>> especially with interest.) >>> >>> I especially find it annoying that since the 19th-century priests did >>> not do their civic duty we have such a chore on our hands to find the >>> marriage yet Fr. is annoyed with you and me and it never dawns on him >>> that his predecessors are ultimately responsible and his superiors >>> are doing nothing to expedite the correction. I can only imagine that >>> since Chicago's older records are available through the FHL that they >>> have few requests at the parish level. >>> >>> I will stop complaining and wait to read others tales of success with >>> parish marriage searches! >>> >>> ------------------------------- >>> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >>> IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >>> without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRISH-NEW- >> YORK-CITY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > ------------------------------ > > To contact the IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY list administrator, send an email to > IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY-admin@rootsweb.com. > > To post a message to the IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY mailing list, send an email > to IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY@rootsweb.com. > > __________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY-request@rootsweb.com > with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the body > of the > email with no additional text. > > > End of IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY Digest, Vol 2, Issue 114 > *************************************************** >

The civil marriage records of NYC exist in a variety of forms. 1853-1937 records were kept by the Department of Health(DOH). These were recorded AFTER the wedding took place. From 1853(there are a few before this but not many) thru 1865 they exist in a register book ONLY with one line per wedding. These LIBER books are available through the Muni Archives and some through the FHL (1873-1887). They are indexed within themselves(recorded within a certain letter as they came in but not alphabetized) sort of before 1873 and then from 1873-1888 they have a separate liber book index by grooms only, I think. The register is separate from the index from 1873 on. The 1888 index exists but not the 1888 register. Registers ceased being kept in NYC after 1888. From 1866-1937 the Health Department(DOH) issued certificates which are what is indexed at the IGG website. These are available through Muni Archives and the FHL. FROM 1866-1887 THEREFORE A CERTIFICATE AND A REGISTER LINE ENTRY SHOULD EXIST FOR EACH WEDDING REPORTED TO THE HEALTH DEPARTMENT. THIS MIGHT GIVE YOU A SECOND CHANCE TO READ POOR PENMANSHIP OR FAINT MICROFILM COPIES. THEY WERE CREATED ESSENTIALLY AT THE SAME TIME AND PROBABLY ARE RECORDED IN TWO DIFFERENT SCRIPTS. Beginning in 1908 the City Clerk office started issuing marriage licenses BEFORE the wedding. They continue to do this today. These licenses include a certificate filled in AFTER the wedding was performed and returned to the city. They provide more detailed information including county in Ireland birthplace for the ones I have from 1920 and 1929. The index at IGG is for the HEALTH DEPARTMENT certificates from 1866-1937. The DOH ceaed its marriages records in 1937. The City Clerk records are available at Muni Archives from 1908-1929. It is $15 to get one but since they are not truly "indexed" they will only get it for you if you 1) have a date and 2) specify that you do not want the Health Department record because you already have it or you know they did not record a DOH certificate. I was able to get the ones for both my grandparents from 1919 and 1929. The 1919 was the only civil record while the 1929 had both the City Clerk license and the DOH certificate filed. You may of course search there yourself. The "index" is put together every few months as the licenses were completed. Therefore if the wedding DID NOT take place there is still a license on file. A collateral who did not get married may finally break the brick wall down if they created a marriage license from 1908 on. Later licenses are available through the City Clerk. No plans are in the works to get the City Clerk index online at IGG. They are not available through the FHL either. THEREFORE, FROM 1908-1937 WHEN THE DOH CEASED ISSUING CERTIFICATES, THERE ARE TWO INDEPENDENT CIVIL MARRIAGE RECORD KEEPERS. SOME COUPLES HAVE BOTH LIKE MY MATERNAL GRANDPARENTS IN 1929, SOME HAVE JUST THE CITY CLERK AS MY PATERNAL GRANDPARENTS DID IN 1919 AND SOME MIGHT HAVE JUST THE DOH CERTIFICATE. BE THOROUGH AND DON'T GIVE UP AFTER 1907 IF YOU ARE NOT ON THE IGG INDEX.

On Dec 24, 2007 9:02 PM, Melanie Egan <megan@cfl.rr.com> wrote: > I can see that they have many other things to do, but then > perhaps the books should be allowed to be microfilmed or copied so that the > information would be available and they wouldn't be bothered. Does anyone > know if this type of project is possible? There is a wealth of information > there. It depends on the dioces/archdiocese, I think. The Newark (NJ) Archdiocese has allowed the LDS to film, up to just past 1900 or so (varies by parish). It was up to the parishes to decide if they wanted to participate, but luckily, in Jersey City at least, most took advantage. Considering JC has about the same number of RC churches as NYC, proportunate to their population! They also filmed the 3 (successive by date) archdiocesan cemeteries. Both the index records by surname, and plot 'occupants', by plot number. NYC seems more like Diocese of Limerick --- a real pain in the a$$ <g> BTW, my one pair of grandparents, both from Ireland, Married in NYC in 1908. I have 3 records documenting this event. NYC marriage License NYC marriage registration/certificate (both from NYC archives. They're in separate groups of films) and, the church record of the marriage. Don't know the time span covered by the License records. It doesn't include everybody, if I recall correctly. . But, I was lucky enough to get mine. <g> > > One parish that has been amazing with baptisms is Immaculate Conception. > They have twice sent a photocopy of the baptismal records for 6 or 7 > children of the ancestors I was researching. They truly made an extra > effort which was so helpful. We didn't know many of the children existed > because they died so young. > I hope you sent them a nice thank you and maybe an extra donation for their effort. Will make them more likely to do it again for somebody else. <g> Just my 2cents, Merry Christmas! Maureen in NJ

I agree with Immaculate Conception being cooperative and providing children one may not have known about. I was provided with my ancestor's first wedding and the daughter of this first marriage, his brother's marriage and baptism a year later of apparently the only child of the brother's marriage and lastly the baptisms of the third brother's 5 American-born children. I assume that they must have an index. That is not the case at other parishes. Unfortunately, my ancestor's second marriage did not take place at Immaculate Conception. I am searching the Cassidy brothers. The first and third brothers married McKeon sisters in 1878 and 1882. The middle brother had married a Murphy in Newry, County Down/Armagh in 1877. The city of Newry crosses the river and is in both counties. I have written the archdiocese and it does not appear that any plans are being made to microfilm these records. I suggested that they create an index so that we could contact the right parish in a one shot deal but they did not take my suggestion seriously. An index would provide money for the diocese which could maintain it and charge a small fee. The parish could still charge $20 or so which would not be so bad if you knew ahead of time that it was the only parish you would have to send a check for that item. Indexing would also minimize the unnecessary searching if the event did not take place there and save the pages of the books from more wear and tear. On Dec 24, 2007, at 8:02 PM, Melanie Egan wrote: > I agree with you! I can't find civil marriage records for any of my > relatives married in the 1870's and 1880's. I've sent numerous > letters to > parishes and it is hard to know if they even looked or even if it > is the > right parish. I can see that they have many other things to do, > but then > perhaps the books should be allowed to be microfilmed or copied so > that the > information would be available and they wouldn't be bothered. Does > anyone > know if this type of project is possible? There is a wealth of > information > there. > > One parish that has been amazing with baptisms is Immaculate > Conception. > They have twice sent a photocopy of the baptismal records for 6 or 7 > children of the ancestors I was researching. They truly made an extra > effort which was so helpful. We didn't know many of the children > existed > because they died so young. > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Michelle and Kevin Cassidy" <kmct@earthlink.net> > To: <irish-new-york-city@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 5:11 PM > Subject: Re: [IRISH-NYC] Distance between parishes of couples > > >> >> The church does celebrate marriage as a sacrament but it understands >> that it serves a purely civil purpose as well and that the state can >> require a license or require a reporting of a marriage; for >> inheritance and other reasons. The Irish priests in Ireland were >> recording civil records of marriage with the government in 1864 and >> later. It amazes me that the priests here felt comfortable ignoring >> the state law in NY requiring them to do likewise. (Are the fines >> still in effect or has the statute of limitations run? It was $50 an >> omission until 1890 or so and then went to $100. That would add up >> especially with interest.) >> >> I especially find it annoying that since the 19th-century priests did >> not do their civic duty we have such a chore on our hands to find the >> marriage yet Fr. is annoyed with you and me and it never dawns on him >> that his predecessors are ultimately responsible and his superiors >> are doing nothing to expedite the correction. I can only imagine that >> since Chicago's older records are available through the FHL that they >> have few requests at the parish level. >> >> I will stop complaining and wait to read others tales of success with >> parish marriage searches! >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' >> without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRISH-NEW- > YORK-CITY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I agree with you! I can't find civil marriage records for any of my relatives married in the 1870's and 1880's. I've sent numerous letters to parishes and it is hard to know if they even looked or even if it is the right parish. I can see that they have many other things to do, but then perhaps the books should be allowed to be microfilmed or copied so that the information would be available and they wouldn't be bothered. Does anyone know if this type of project is possible? There is a wealth of information there. One parish that has been amazing with baptisms is Immaculate Conception. They have twice sent a photocopy of the baptismal records for 6 or 7 children of the ancestors I was researching. They truly made an extra effort which was so helpful. We didn't know many of the children existed because they died so young. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Michelle and Kevin Cassidy" <kmct@earthlink.net> To: <irish-new-york-city@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, December 24, 2007 5:11 PM Subject: Re: [IRISH-NYC] Distance between parishes of couples > > The church does celebrate marriage as a sacrament but it understands > that it serves a purely civil purpose as well and that the state can > require a license or require a reporting of a marriage; for > inheritance and other reasons. The Irish priests in Ireland were > recording civil records of marriage with the government in 1864 and > later. It amazes me that the priests here felt comfortable ignoring > the state law in NY requiring them to do likewise. (Are the fines > still in effect or has the statute of limitations run? It was $50 an > omission until 1890 or so and then went to $100. That would add up > especially with interest.) > > I especially find it annoying that since the 19th-century priests did > not do their civic duty we have such a chore on our hands to find the > marriage yet Fr. is annoyed with you and me and it never dawns on him > that his predecessors are ultimately responsible and his superiors > are doing nothing to expedite the correction. I can only imagine that > since Chicago's older records are available through the FHL that they > have few requests at the parish level. > > I will stop complaining and wait to read others tales of success with > parish marriage searches! > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

The church does celebrate marriage as a sacrament but it understands that it serves a purely civil purpose as well and that the state can require a license or require a reporting of a marriage; for inheritance and other reasons. The Irish priests in Ireland were recording civil records of marriage with the government in 1864 and later. It amazes me that the priests here felt comfortable ignoring the state law in NY requiring them to do likewise. (Are the fines still in effect or has the statute of limitations run? It was $50 an omission until 1890 or so and then went to $100. That would add up especially with interest.) I especially find it annoying that since the 19th-century priests did not do their civic duty we have such a chore on our hands to find the marriage yet Fr. is annoyed with you and me and it never dawns on him that his predecessors are ultimately responsible and his superiors are doing nothing to expedite the correction. I can only imagine that since Chicago's older records are available through the FHL that they have few requests at the parish level. I will stop complaining and wait to read others tales of success with parish marriage searches!

Sounds like you've had some negative experiences... The Church considers marriage a religious Sacrament and not a civil event. Therefore they don't feel obligated to report the marriage. Not good for us but... I've had the same problem with some ancestors of mine. I've been unable to find their marriage, c 1870, and unable to find him in the 1850 & 1860 censuses so I don't know what neighborhood he lived in. I've found the baptisms of their children and the wife...marriage of the wife's parents, etc...but not their marriage, very frustrating. I've found, in my "numerous" requests for lookups at these churches, that many of the people that do the lookups are volunteers and consequently the effort may be lacking. One church, St. Mary's on the Lower East Side, required my calling on a half dozen different occasions over an 8 month period before the checking was finally done...Her name was "Sima" and I'm sure she doesn't want to hear from me again. She was very nice though. Merry Christmas Frank McCullough California Michelle and Kevin Cassidy wrote: >Yes, I do send a donation. I have started calling first to make sure >I send the correct amount. It is up to $25 at some places. They do >not always cash the checks right away. Sometimes they forget to send >a letter saying they did not find a marriage despite having a SASE >with the check. The check clears and when called they say they >thought they sent me a note. The letter then comes in a different >envelope than the one I sent. Did they even check or just take the >money and run? Most have been very cordial and helpful but a few have >been very rude. > >One priest in particular comes to mind. I know they do not exist to >serve our genealogical curiosity but hiring a professional will not >make my request go away. He seems to think that I would rather pay >him $25 for a chance that they were married at his parish and get >minimal details when I could pay Muni Archives $15 and get much >information on a civil record. I could also rent the film from the >FHL for $5.50 or send a request for a copy through the FHL for 8 >copies at $16. He did not believe me when I shared that many Catholic >marriages do not have a civil record from before 1915. I challenged >him to pull ten marriages from his records between 1866-1907 and see >how many do not show up on the IGG index. Even Milton Hershey's 1898 >wedding at St. Patrick's did not get turned into the Health >Department. Marriage records unlike the baptismal records are public >records. They were supposed to be turned in at the time of the >wedding. The archdiocese should do the right thing and turn in copies >of all these marriage records from before 1915. They would eliminate >requests like ours and provide a huge amount of goodwill for themselves. > > >On Dec 24, 2007, at 12:38 PM, Frank McCullough wrote: > > > >>When you send a request for lookup, do you also send along a donation? >> >>Frank >> >> >>Michelle and Kevin Cassidy wrote: >> >> >> >>>I have had a devil of a time finding marriages of certain couples. >>>One would assume that for a couple to marry they must live near each >>>other at some point or marry someone that lived near a friend, job or >>>relative. >>> >>>I have one couple that married in 1905 at Epiphany near the bride's >>>home in the East 20s but the groom lived on East 88th Street. Since >>>brides particularly do not show up in the city directory as a single >>>woman how have you found more difficult couples? I write to the >>>surrounding parishes and more often than not it is a bust. Also many >>>of the parishes are not so eager to look stuff up. Any tried and true >>>suggestions? >>> >>>The lack of full compliance by the priests in the civil recording of >>>weddings with the Health Department before 1908 has complicated the >>>matter in 2007. Unfortunately, the 5 marriages I am seeking took >>>place c. 1881, c.1886, c. 1890, c.1898 and c. 1900. None of these >>>five show up on the IGG site marriage index. I have church >>>certificates for several marriages that do not appear on the IGG >>>site; 1878, 1881, 1882, 1892 and 1903. >>> >>>------------------------------- >>>To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRISH-NEW- >>>YORK-CITY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>>the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>------------------------------- >>To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRISH-NEW- >>YORK-CITY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >>the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> > > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > >

Yes, I do send a donation. I have started calling first to make sure I send the correct amount. It is up to $25 at some places. They do not always cash the checks right away. Sometimes they forget to send a letter saying they did not find a marriage despite having a SASE with the check. The check clears and when called they say they thought they sent me a note. The letter then comes in a different envelope than the one I sent. Did they even check or just take the money and run? Most have been very cordial and helpful but a few have been very rude. One priest in particular comes to mind. I know they do not exist to serve our genealogical curiosity but hiring a professional will not make my request go away. He seems to think that I would rather pay him $25 for a chance that they were married at his parish and get minimal details when I could pay Muni Archives $15 and get much information on a civil record. I could also rent the film from the FHL for $5.50 or send a request for a copy through the FHL for 8 copies at $16. He did not believe me when I shared that many Catholic marriages do not have a civil record from before 1915. I challenged him to pull ten marriages from his records between 1866-1907 and see how many do not show up on the IGG index. Even Milton Hershey's 1898 wedding at St. Patrick's did not get turned into the Health Department. Marriage records unlike the baptismal records are public records. They were supposed to be turned in at the time of the wedding. The archdiocese should do the right thing and turn in copies of all these marriage records from before 1915. They would eliminate requests like ours and provide a huge amount of goodwill for themselves. On Dec 24, 2007, at 12:38 PM, Frank McCullough wrote: > When you send a request for lookup, do you also send along a donation? > > Frank > > > Michelle and Kevin Cassidy wrote: > >> I have had a devil of a time finding marriages of certain couples. >> One would assume that for a couple to marry they must live near each >> other at some point or marry someone that lived near a friend, job or >> relative. >> >> I have one couple that married in 1905 at Epiphany near the bride's >> home in the East 20s but the groom lived on East 88th Street. Since >> brides particularly do not show up in the city directory as a single >> woman how have you found more difficult couples? I write to the >> surrounding parishes and more often than not it is a bust. Also many >> of the parishes are not so eager to look stuff up. Any tried and true >> suggestions? >> >> The lack of full compliance by the priests in the civil recording of >> weddings with the Health Department before 1908 has complicated the >> matter in 2007. Unfortunately, the 5 marriages I am seeking took >> place c. 1881, c.1886, c. 1890, c.1898 and c. 1900. None of these >> five show up on the IGG site marriage index. I have church >> certificates for several marriages that do not appear on the IGG >> site; 1878, 1881, 1882, 1892 and 1903. >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRISH-NEW- >> YORK-CITY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> >> > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRISH-NEW- > YORK-CITY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I have had a devil of a time finding marriages of certain couples. One would assume that for a couple to marry they must live near each other at some point or marry someone that lived near a friend, job or relative. I have one couple that married in 1905 at Epiphany near the bride's home in the East 20s but the groom lived on East 88th Street. Since brides particularly do not show up in the city directory as a single woman how have you found more difficult couples? I write to the surrounding parishes and more often than not it is a bust. Also many of the parishes are not so eager to look stuff up. Any tried and true suggestions? The lack of full compliance by the priests in the civil recording of weddings with the Health Department before 1908 has complicated the matter in 2007. Unfortunately, the 5 marriages I am seeking took place c. 1881, c.1886, c. 1890, c.1898 and c. 1900. None of these five show up on the IGG site marriage index. I have church certificates for several marriages that do not appear on the IGG site; 1878, 1881, 1882, 1892 and 1903.

When you send a request for lookup, do you also send along a donation? Frank Michelle and Kevin Cassidy wrote: >I have had a devil of a time finding marriages of certain couples. >One would assume that for a couple to marry they must live near each >other at some point or marry someone that lived near a friend, job or >relative. > >I have one couple that married in 1905 at Epiphany near the bride's >home in the East 20s but the groom lived on East 88th Street. Since >brides particularly do not show up in the city directory as a single >woman how have you found more difficult couples? I write to the >surrounding parishes and more often than not it is a bust. Also many >of the parishes are not so eager to look stuff up. Any tried and true >suggestions? > >The lack of full compliance by the priests in the civil recording of >weddings with the Health Department before 1908 has complicated the >matter in 2007. Unfortunately, the 5 marriages I am seeking took >place c. 1881, c.1886, c. 1890, c.1898 and c. 1900. None of these >five show up on the IGG site marriage index. I have church >certificates for several marriages that do not appear on the IGG >site; 1878, 1881, 1882, 1892 and 1903. > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > >

The Premiere Issue of The Irish Everywhere Newsletter was excellent. My thanks to Denise for sharing this. What great insite I gained. I strongly recommend to everyone searching for Irish Roots to read this valuable newsletter. Again, Thanks Denise. You are awesome.