Many of the seemingly "Church" records available for NYC were filmed from the Dept. of Health Records not the parish records. Because the ceremony was held in a church and the officiating clergy empowered to act for the Civil Authority, the piece of paper submitted to the civil authority was simply a copy of the church record. The fact that the same difficulties are encountered in obtaining records not alone here in the US but also in Ireland, Germany and elsewhere does not support the "Local" theory. My point was that for uniformity of policy worldwide and to help the maximum number of researchers worldwide (not just ourselves) a global approach made more sense. No one appreciates the efforts of the LDS church in filming and providing the vast record resources they hold free to all researchers more than I do, regardless of their motivation . I'm fortunate to spend time frequently in Salt Lake City and not only the great FHL but the expert and helpful professional genealogists on staff have been of immense assistance to me in my personal research. ************************************** See AOL's top rated recipes (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004)

Very interesting discussion re the non-cooperation of the NYC Catholic Churches. I notice Chicago and Hartford dioceses both referenced as cooperative. I have had similar success with Catholic Church records in Luzerne Co., PA, Flagstaff, AZ, and Santa Fe, NM.as well as in Ireland. In fact, the New Mexico Genealogical Society has published the b and m records for most of the parishes in NM, some of which date back to 1598. And some of them were established during the Inquisition! So, it isn't a matter of not being allowed by law to do lookups, it is a matter of not being willing. I agree with the suggestion to do a general index where one could at least determine what parish to contact and pay for a record. The Italian Genealogical Society has done a remarkable job with their transcription of records, as has been mentioned. Saying it is too big a job is self-defeating. From the volume of correspondence on this website, there is a real desire for the information and hopefully enough volunteers would be willing to help with the transcription. Even if it isn't finished, something is better than nothing. The Catholic Church has never over exerted itself helping its people--and no, I am not a bigot, I went to Catholic School from K-postgraduate school. As far as the Mormons, if we don't believe in what they do with the records, nor care, it doesn't affect us. No "sin" is involved since we have neither as ked for, nor consented to, their processing our records in their church. I think the best idea is to point out to the dioceses how much money they could generate if the project were successful, the reduction of inquiries to the "incorrect" parishes, thus lightening their load, and to provide volunteers to do the job. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. **************************************See AOL's top rated recipes (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004)

Are these NYC records? Or some other city? ----- Original Message ----- From: Michelle and Kevin Cassidy To: iriSH-NEW-YORK-CITY@rootsweb.com Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 10:20 AM Subject: [IRISH-NYC] Marriage records at St. Raphael Happy New Year I would be willing to search my xerox records from the FHL. If you have a marriage between September 1886- the end of 1908, send me the names and I can tell you if they married there. Kevin ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Other faiths respect the original baptism as a Christian -- wherever it is done. They usually respect the sacramental validity of any Christian Church. A Methodist who becomes Catholic is not RE-baptized. And vice versa. One Christ for all. ----- Original Message ----- From: Irishcolleen45@aol.com To: irish-new-york-city@rootsweb.com Sent: Monday, December 31, 2007 11:25 PM Subject: Re: [IRISH-NYC] NYC Archdiocesan searches Maureen, My maternal Irish born grandfather was "re-baptized" as a Mormon. I do not share the Mormon's belief that one's faith can be changed by being included as part of another religious group. My grandfather was born, raised, was married, died and was buried as a Catholic and nothing mortally can change that. I know that. The Church knows that but what about people 200-300 years from now. Would they understand that when they are researching? mcshelly2@msn.com writes: There has been a problem with the LDS because, as you may or may not know, the LDS family researchers re-baptize all of their ancestors as Mormons, that is their sole purpose for doing the filming and opening their Family History Centers.

I cannot agree that "the concept of private ownership of church records is not diocesan or even national, it is global and universal so perhaps the approach needs to be to the Vatican rather than the Archdiocese of New York?" G.McC ---------------------- Yes, they are privately owned by the Roman Catholic church. But I have gotten hundreds Roman Catholic sacramental records off the LDS films of the sacramental records for five RC parishes in Ireland and for more than a dozen RC parishes in western Germany. And yet I have heard that the records of certain parishes in each of those countries -- in different dioceses than the ones that I sought -- are not available, under local option. The LDS has filmed at thousands of Roman Catholic churches all over the world, including in the United States. Some said yes and some said no. The same with other churches such as Lutheran, Evangelical Reformed, Methodist, Presbyterian. Since the Mormons rebaptize their ancestors when they find them, many congregations do not want the Mormons to have films of their records. And among those are some Roman Catholic churches. It is their choice, they are the owners. If your Diocesesan Archives or your parish has a film of their sacramental records to look up for you, then that is an LDS film ..... as the Mormons provided free copies of their sacramental records to the churches that permitted the Mormons to film the records. Go to www.familysearch.com and look to see if film for any other parish that you know of outside NYC is listed. You can rent that film at your local LDS Family History Center and look at all the sacramental records for a whole month! Vatican has nothing to do with it! The churches have and had the freedom to decide in some cases, and bishops decided for all of their parishes in other cases. But you must remember these are not public records, so we have no RIGHT to them -- and if a parish is graciously willing to search for our ancestors for us, we should at least be willing to reimburse the members of that parish for the 30-60 minutes or more of staff time it may take to set up the microfilm reader and then find the record you seek. You are asking for a gift, a favor. Please remember to say please and thank you and to pay your fair share and more of the costs of the gifts you seek -- many of the older parishes are in terrible financial straits -- and please be certain to enclose an SASE containing correct postage for what you seek. Each four copies usually costs another ounce of postage.

Let's invite John Martino (iamwebmaster@italiangen.org) from the Italian Genealogy Group and Jim Garrity ( jimgarrity@earthlink.net) from the New York Irish History Roundtable (http://irishnyhistory.org/index.htm) to tell us their experiences acquiring records from the Archdiocese of NYC and indivual Manhattan parishes. BMcK ************************************** See AOL's top rated recipes (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004)

I once tried to get information from the Archdiocese and failed. Their system of disseminating to the local parishes for information is trated as a joke by the local parishes. When I wrote a letter complaining that I didn't get and information I received a letter telling me how I should do my research. It appears that the larger the religious division, the more rigid it is in their policy. I find a lot more cooperation in the rural parishes of the State. In the Rochester Diocese you can go to a local college and view the BMD of the diocese in the early 1900s and earlier. Canon Law required parishes to keep records long before the States required it. I don't remember Canon Law stating that the information has to be kept under lock and key. And now that I think of it, since when is the Church so cooperative with such a secular institution as the State of New York? -----Original Message----- From: irish-new-york-city-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:irish-new-york-city-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of irish-new-york-city-request@rootsweb.com Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2007 3:04 AM To: irish-new-york-city@rootsweb.com Subject: IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY Digest, Vol 2, Issue 119 Today's Topics: 1. Re: IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY Digest, Vol 2, Issue 118 (GwenM10100@aol.com) 2. Re: IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY Digest, Vol 2, Issue 118 (user917826@aol.com) 3. Re: IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY Digest, Vol 2, Issue 118 (user917826@aol.com) 4. Re: IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY Digest, Vol 2, Issue 118 (Michelle and Kevin Cassidy) 5. Requesting from parishes (HeirLinesNY@aol.com) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2007 07:41:52 EST From: GwenM10100@aol.com Subject: Re: [IRISH-NYC] IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY Digest, Vol 2, Issue 118 To: irish-new-york-city@rootsweb.com Message-ID: <bcb.1ed8453b.34a79a90@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" In a message dated 12/29/2007 3:20:56 AM Eastern Standard Time, irish-new-york-city-request@rootsweb.com writes: > > 2008 is the Bicentennial of the Archdiocese. There's a lot going on > including an exhibit at the Museum of the City of New York and a Bicentennial > History. Maybe this is the time to ask again about the parish records. I've had > a difficult time too and have yet to get a marriage record. I did get some > baptismal records (just a letter, no certificates) from St. Paul's on East > 117th Street which was a real breaththrough - they were for the 1850s and this > information can't be found in the civil records (I looked at the Municipal > Archives). It took me two tries to get this and yes, I send a donation and a > SASE. > > I think it could be a win/win - the parish would get some added revenue and > we would get the records we need. > Hi. With due respect to those who would like to see these records available online I can think of few things less likely to happen. Church policy has always supported the law in reporting vital records as required to Civil Authorities but beyond that legal mandate, its equally firm commitment has been to protect the individuals receiving its sacraments and keep its own records private and it is entitled to do that. If individual priests failed to comply 100% in reporting and if it could be proved a particular record was not provided, then the churches only obligation would surely be to provide that record to the civil authorities not to the public! The strong and rapidly growing trend these days in many states both in this country and abroad is towards passing laws to make all presently public vital records much less accessible in the interests of homeland security and irrespective of the age of the record. That loss will be of much greater significance to genealogists and focus on addressing that threat is much more urgent (and feasible) than attempting to get the Archdiocese to change its longstanding policy and buck the tide now flowing strongly against disclosure even in the civil arena. Offers of assistance to the Archdiocese in preserving and compiling its records and making them more easily searchable by them in answering legitimate enquiries might be welcomed so long as the privacy of the records was protected in the transcription/scanning process and I would not expect that to result in copies of entire registers becoming publically available. Historically,many churches and civil authorities did allow access and copying in return for the provision of complete microfilmed records and later found their records had been misused. Few present day parishes have the resources to handle requests for records (especially old records or those of now defunct parishes) for other than the most pressing official reasons and see no neccessity to search for hours to satisfy curiosity (as they see it) especially if the event is not known for sure to have occured in that parish in the first place. The manpower hours to do such a project, would be astronomical, just getting the 1930 census ready for online use required every name being transcribed seperately by two individuals and then compared and every discrepancy was then reviewed by a third person for resolution! Those were public records with no privacy concerns! A very large grant from a charitable organization to fund compilation and preservation of all parish records for the archdiocese and made to an organization capable of mounting such an initiative, recruiting the volunteers and establishing quality control would be the way to approach this rather than trying to pressure the Archdiocese. Even then expectation of greater access as a result should be realistic! Just my 2 cents Gwen McC. NJ ************************************** See AOL's top rated recipes (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004) ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2007 08:05:44 -0500 From: user917826@aol.com Subject: Re: [IRISH-NYC] IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY Digest, Vol 2, Issue 118 To: irish-new-york-city@rootsweb.com Message-ID: <8CA1832A81C43C0-A04-2063@webmail-dd10.sysops.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi.. One can search the Archives if one has a idea of the Parish in Philadelphia. There is a fee of $25, as? I recall, but it may have gone up.? It also takes about 5 months to get a reply.? I do believe that these parishes could make a fair amount of money if they would take requests seriously and charge for the time and effort.? I have recently sent off two research request payments to Anglican Churches in Brooklyn.? I have made others that were executed for free but in these cases I sent a specified donation.? I have not heard from either.? It would be truly wonderful if we could find ways to get ALL church records organized and accessible, but until then, I wish the Archdiocese would realize that?it could truly profit by making an effort to work with the genealogical community. Bev W -----Original Message----- From: GwenM10100@aol.com To: irish-new-york-city@rootsweb.com Sent: Sat, 29 Dec 2007 7:41 am Subject: Re: [IRISH-NYC] IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY Digest, Vol 2, Issue 118 In a message dated 12/29/2007 3:20:56 AM Eastern Standard Time, irish-new-york-city-request@rootsweb.com writes: > > 2008 is the Bicentennial of the Archdiocese. There's a lot going on > including an exhibit at the Museum of the City of New York and a Bicentennial > History. Maybe this is the time to ask again about the parish records. I've had > a difficult time too and have yet to get a marriage record. I did get some > baptismal records (just a letter, no certificates) from St. Paul's on East > 117th Street which was a real breaththrough - they were for the 1850s and this > information can't be found in the civil records (I looked at the Municipal > Archives). It took me two tries to get this and yes, I send a donation and a > SASE. > > I think it could be a win/win - the parish would get some added revenue and > we would get the records we need. > Hi. With due respect to those who would like to see these records available online I can think of few things less likely to happen. Church policy has always supported the law in reporting vital records as required to Civil Authorities but beyond that legal mandate, its equally firm commitment has been to protect the individuals receiving its sacraments and keep its own records private and it is entitled to do that. If individual priests failed to comply 100% in reporting and if it could be proved a particular record was not provided, then the churches only obligation would surely be to provide that record to the civil authorities not to the public! The strong and rapidly growing trend these days in many states both in this country and abroad is towards passing laws to make all presently public vital records much less accessible in the interests of homeland security and irrespective of the age of the record. That loss will be of much greater significance to genealogists and focus on addressing that threat is much more urgent (and feasible) than attempting to get the Archdiocese to change its longstanding policy and buck the tide now flowing strongly against disclosure even in the civil arena. Offers of assistance to the Archdiocese in preserving and compiling its records and making them more easily searchable by them in answering legitimate enquiries might be welcomed so long as the privacy of the records was protected in the transcription/scanning process and I would not expect that to result in copies of entire registers becoming publically available. Historically,many churches and civil authorities did allow access and copying in return for the provision of complete microfilmed records and later found their records had been misused. Few present day parishes have the resources to handle requests for records (especially old records or those of now defunct parishes) for other than the most pressing official reasons and see no neccessity to search for hours to satisfy curiosity (as they see it) especially if the event is not known for sure to have occured in that parish in the first place. The manpower hours to do such a project, would be astronomical, just getting the 1930 census ready for online use required every name being transcribed seperately by two individuals and then compared and every discrepancy was then reviewed by a third person for resolution! Those were public records with no privacy concerns! A very large grant from a charitable organization to fund compilation and preservation of all parish records for the archdiocese and made to an organization capable of mounting such an initiative, recruiting the volunteers and establishing quality control would be the way to approach this rather than trying to pressure the Archdiocese. Even then expectation of greater access as a result should be realistic! Just my 2 cents Gwen McC. NJ ************************************** See AOL's top rated recipes (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004) ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2007 08:14:03 -0500 From: user917826@aol.com Subject: Re: [IRISH-NYC] IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY Digest, Vol 2, Issue 118 To: irish-new-york-city@rootsweb.com Message-ID: <8CA1833D12E95EE-A04-20AD@webmail-dd10.sysops.aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Forgive the? typos.? I am on my son's laptop which has a mind of its own. Bev W -----Original Message----- From: user917826@aol.com To: irish-new-york-city@rootsweb.com Sent: Sat, 29 Dec 2007 8:05 am Subject: Re: [IRISH-NYC] IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY Digest, Vol 2, Issue 118 Hi.. One can search the Archives if one has a idea of the Parish in Philadelphia. There is a fee of $25, as? I recall, but it may have gone up.? It also takes about 5 months to get a reply.? I do believe that these parishes could make a fair amount of money if they would take requests seriously and charge for the time and effort.? I have recently sent off two research request payments to Anglican Churches in Brooklyn.? I have made others that were executed for free but in these cases I sent a specified donation.? I have not heard from either.? It would be truly wonderful if we could find ways to get ALL church records organized and accessible, but until then, I wish the Archdiocese would realize that?it could truly profit by making an effort to work with the genealogical community. Bev W -----Original Message----- From: GwenM10100@aol.com To: irish-new-york-city@rootsweb.com Sent: Sat, 29 Dec 2007 7:41 am Subject: Re: [IRISH-NYC] IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY Digest, Vol 2, Issue 118 In a message dated 12/29/2007 3:20:56 AM Eastern Standard Time, irish-new-york-city-request@rootsweb.com writes: > > 2008 is the Bicentennial of the Archdiocese. There's a lot going on > including an exhibit at the Museum of the City of New York and a Bicentennial > History. Maybe this is the time to ask again about the parish records. I've had > a difficult time too and have yet to get a marriage record. I did get some > baptismal records (just a letter, no certificates) from St. Paul's on East > 117th Street which was a real breaththrough - they were for the 1850s and this > information can't be found in the civil records (I looked at the Municipal > Archives). It took me two tries to get this and yes, I send a donation and a > SASE. > > I think it could be a win/win - the parish would get some added revenue and > we would get the records we need. > Hi. With due respect to those who would like to see these records available online I can think of few things less likely to happen. Church policy has always supported the law in reporting vital records as required to Civil Authorities but beyond that legal mandate, its equally firm commitment has been to protect the individuals receiving its sacraments and keep its own records private and it is entitled to do that. If individual priests failed to comply 100% in reporting and if it could be proved a particular record was not provided, then the churches only obligation would surely be to provide that record to the civil authorities not to the public! The strong and rapidly growing trend these days in many states both in this country and abroad is towards passing laws to make all presently public vital records much less accessible in the interests of homeland security and irrespective of the age of the record. That loss will be of much greater significance to genealogists and focus on addressing that threat is much more urgent (and feasible) than attempting to get the Archdiocese to change its longstanding policy and buck the tide now flowing strongly against disclosure even in the civil arena. Offers of assistance to the Archdiocese in preserving and compiling its records and making them more easily searchable by them in answering legitimate enquiries might be welcomed so long as the privacy of the records was protected in the transcription/scanning process and I would not expect that to result in copies of entire registers becoming publically available. Historically,many churches and civil authorities did allow access and copying in return for the provision of complete microfilmed records and later found their records had been misused. Few present day parishes have the resources to handle requests for records (especially old records or those of now defunct parishes) for other than the most pressing official reasons and see no neccessity to search for hours to satisfy curiosity (as they see it) especially if the event is not known for sure to have occured in that parish in the first place. The manpower hours to do such a project, would be astronomical, just getting the 1930 census ready for online use required every name being transcribed seperately by two individuals and then compared and every discrepancy was then reviewed by a third person for resolution! Those were public records with no privacy concerns! A very large grant from a charitable organization to fund compilation and preservation of all parish records for the archdiocese and made to an organization capable of mounting such an initiative, recruiting the volunteers and establishing quality control would be the way to approach this rather than trying to pressure the Archdiocese. Even then expectation of greater access as a result should be realistic! Just my 2 cents Gwen McC. NJ ************************************** See AOL's top rated recipes (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004) ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com ------------------------------ Message: 4 Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2007 18:53:24 -0600 From: Michelle and Kevin Cassidy <kmct@earthlink.net> Subject: Re: [IRISH-NYC] IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY Digest, Vol 2, Issue 118 To: irish-new-york-city@rootsweb.com Message-ID: <65E5C836-447D-4C09-BCD2-7D8160CCD4EF@earthlink.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=WINDOWS-1252; delsp=yes; format=flowed It has been mentioned that there are privacy concerns but isn't the point of wedding banns a public announcement to see if anyone knows why these two people can't get married? If they had no privacy three weeks before the wedding how do they have an absolute right to privacy today? Baptisms and illegitimacy are different but marriage is public. There may be a handful of exceptions but since the US is not and has not been a totalitarian society, I doubt there are any "secret marriages" that might have occurred in ancient Rome or elsewhere. It has also been suggested that if a wedding went unrecorded then the Church would provide details for that marriage to the City not the public. Since most of the registers are not public we do not know how many went unrecorded but St. Raphael on West 41st Street is available through the FHL. I photocopied weddings between September 1, 1886 when they began at St. Raphael through 1908. Out of the total of 1,508 weddings listed in the marriage register at St. Raphael?s, only 480 were also registered with the NYC Department of Health; this is a mere 31.8%. During the first 7 1/3 years not a single one of St. Raphael?s weddings was recorded with the city. One can only imagine that the numbers are similar if not worse in other parishes. Since the City has made their marriage records public from 1853-1937 it is a moot point that the Church won't do that. If the Church turned in the registers today any marriage from before 1938 at least would be made public by the City. There is no if about it. Many if not most Catholic weddings went unrecorded with the proper civil authorities. As far as the manpower, it will take the time it needs. If we get a lot of volunteers it would take less time. Catholic records are pretty short in the 19th-century; Groom married Bride with Witness 1 Witness 2 by Priest. That is going to be 95% of the marriages. That would not take much time. Having typed in the stuff for grooms and naturalizations myself on the IGG it was not very time consuming. I think the index would be best if privacy is a concern. If it is not a real issue then microfilming is the way to go. Catholics are the largest group of Christians in the USA and the second largest group of Christians is people who used to be Catholic. That would mean that many if not most of America has at least some ancestor in the Catholic sacramental records of NYC. If the parishes don't have the staff to search for events that the researcher is not sure took place there then how is the status quo fixing that? Yes, I have 5 marriages I am searching for and no date of marriage and no exact place. Just addresses from the city directory and census. If I write to parish A and get the run around, do I stop or write to parish B? If parish A is the actual place of the wedding, then how does stonewalling me help anyone? All it does is send the pushy genealogist on to the next parish and so on and so on. If they would each index or allow their marriage records to be indexed, then the right parish could be identified from the resulting master index which could be kept at the chancery. That would preserve privacy, eliminate goose chases and infuse some cash into the archdiocese and her parishes. Since other dioceses have allowed the filming of their records then this is not a matter of it is forbidden like using milk instead of wine at Mass. This is a choice and it seems a bit wrong to say that the records that legally were supposed to be turned a century ago are now "private". If Chicago is filmed and all of Ireland too, then why not NYC? This is not a dogma or doctrine that is preventing easier access to the records. It is hubris and apparently the news stories the last five years have not brought about the humility one would expect. Father "X" told me records are for the living. I disagree and assert that records are to reveal the present to the future. We are the future of those records were created for. They ask why is it such a big deal that you know all this stuff? Fair enough, I can give a logical answer. I ask back though, why is it such a big deal that your prevent me from learning these details? They spend more time stonewalling than they would simply to do the search and either issue the certificate or a letter saying it was not found there. People just want to find their ancestors' records. It would be a good gesture if the archdiocese moved forward making these records more accessible. Is that really too much to ask? ------------------------------ Message: 5 Date: Sun, 30 Dec 2007 03:03:04 EST From: HeirLinesNY@aol.com Subject: [IRISH-NYC] Requesting from parishes To: IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY@rootsweb.com Message-ID: <c46.27184ab3.34a8aab8@aol.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" How right you are! I live in NYC and have witnessed the same. Some parishes have a part time person, whose native language is not English, to search records. [I engage the person on the phone and have asked and learned this, and always ask their names.] If you do not provide alternative spellings or dates, they do not attempt that on their own. So you as the buyer, you might clearly state what you seek. Also, make it like a simple list, not a long letter. In various parishes the part time research people may work one day per week or, as is the case of a few parishes, from 5-7pm weekdays, doubling as a receptionist. And/or the person may be a volunteer who is their from the goodness of their hearts, but doesn't know what the heck they are doing, or doesn't care, or can't transcribe handwritten original records. Besides, some of these people don't "get" why we are interested. (My opinion.) Once, when a parish mailed me a requested copy, I saw a portion of handwritten information in the margins. Then, I phoned them & asked about the cut off section and found out they had more information about the marrying couple or baptismal parents, than was on the actual certificates, such as the home address of the family, or native origin of the parents. Now, I always ask for all data, beside what was on the documents, and ask cemeteries who purchased the plot, their address, and the date. Let's be frank folks, there are 2 issues involved: money and "man"power. In my experience, if you make it easy for them to retrieve your records, they usually cooperate. You really must be willing to send a "donation." Either include something or phone ahead to ask their preferred amount. In my experience the best Manhattan parish is St. Patrick's Old Cathedral. The second best is the parish who receives requests from now extinct, St. Alphonus German Catholic Church, that was demolished for the buidling of the WTC. It is all a business. Unfortunately, money talks. Can any NYer imagine how many records the Archdiocese of NY has, or that they will ever prioritize digitalizing these records? TVRL524@aol.com writes: > I think a lot depends on who is working on the day you contact them. ************************************** See AOL's top rated recipes (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004) ------------------------------ To contact the IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY list administrator, send an email to IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY-admin@rootsweb.com. To post a message to the IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY mailing list, send an email to IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY@rootsweb.com. __________________________________________________________ To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY-request@rootsweb.com with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the body of the email with no additional text. End of IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY Digest, Vol 2, Issue 119 ***************************************************

The archives of the Archdiocese of HARTFORD have microfilms of the old church records on microfilm.? If you tell the archivist in what area of the city your ancestor lived, the approximate year?and their nationality, she will go to the appropriate church(es) and search.? I don't know if individuals can search the films.? However, the day I was at the archives someone, not an employee, was doing personal genealogy.? The archivist was VERY cooperative. Maria ************************************** See AOL's top rated recipes (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004) ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ________________________________________________________________________ More new features than ever. Check out the new AOL Mail ! - http://webmail.aol.com

Happy New Year I would be willing to search my xerox records from the FHL. If you have a marriage between September 1886- the end of 1908, send me the names and I can tell you if they married there. Kevin

In a message dated 12/31/2007 9:18:33 PM Eastern Standard Time, irish-new-york-city-request@rootsweb.com writes: > Shame on me for leaving if I did > but why be so rigid when Chicago and Ireland have filmed their records? > > > Enjoying the debate for its own sake as well as the topic, but there are a couple of misconceptions here. Great though the online databases from the Civil Authorities Public Records are, they are far from perfect and not yet complete so that "no civil record is found" there or even by request directly to the civil authorities does not mean none exists or existed at one time! The officiating official (Lay or Clergy) was not always the party responsible for reporting marriages either, and deaths were often reported (or not) by bereaved relatives. The Churches should not be expected to now compensate for failure of individuals to comply with their own civil duty, or for errors in transcription, filing, transportation, storage etc. I agree that funding could perhaps be found if it were a project likely to be profitable commercially as the 1930 census is for the companies having them now on line but that is not likely. Funding the index only wouldn't likely attract any philanthropic funding because it does nothing to improve access at the local parish level. The Church's emphasis on preservation of confidentiality and the concept of private ownership of church records is not diocesan or even national, it is global and universal so perhaps the approach needs to be to the Vatican rather than the Archdiocese of New York? G.McC ************************************** See AOL's top rated recipes (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004)

Hi Mary Ann, You offer many valid deductions. However, one of the formative doctrines of the government of the United States of America was "separation of Church and State." The Roman Catholic Church is not the only theological institution that relies on this tenet; the Muslim mosques being build all of the USA as we sleep, in spite of Homeland Security, the Word Trade Center, and impending terrorist threats, rely upon this protective tenet of our forefathers. It is interesting what Chicago has done, but none of what was done in Chicago. or any other major city, matters. NYC was the largest city in the USA for most of its lifetime; its ego and history rely on this fact. Also, more immigrants passed through its port, even as a stopping spot for ways West. Many rooted here purely because they couldn't afford to travel further. NYC was frequently the first experience immigrants had with the USA. With all due respect, to "We the people," the USA constitution was initially and specifying created with a "separation of Church and state" clause. And, this tenet is something that not only the Catholic Church has relied upon in the past, but today's Muslim mosques are built all over the USA, dependent upon or taking advantage of this tenet. I say taking advantage of, due to Homeland Security, the WTC holocaust, and the present emphases upon impending terrorist actions. FYI ---South Americans refers to their homelands as "America, " so I want to clarify that I refer to the United States of America as that which we refer. As far as Catholic doctrine, it is not any "yahoo" who may receive the Eucharist at Mass, but it is dependent upon each individual making a clear and valid, personal, self-proclaimed Act of Contrition, not in confession via a priest, to receive the sacramental body and blood of Christ. It is not for others of the Roman Catholic faith to judge or assess or involve themselves in who "approaches the rail" and deems themselves eligible to or worthy to receive the Eucharist. Frankly, that is not of your concern. Who receives Communion is unrelated to the Church's stance about releasing sacramental records. These are two separate intellectual issues. Pleas consider: What is to preventing some nosy "yahoo" from seeking sacramental records about your ancestors? Perhaps you need to correspond with the Chicago Archdiocese and ask them what factors they considered when releasing such records to LDS, instead of judging that one Archdiocese did not, has not, or will do the same. The answer to this will provide all of us with specific grounds to approach the Archdioceses of NY and Brooklyn. Cost is not moot. The Apple has a population girth incomparable to any other city, and its physical boundaries expanded. If the numbers of sacramental recipients each year is considered, there is an unimaginable amount of transcribing to do. You may also check out the cost per square foot of real estate in NYC just to comprehend what costs are here, compared to the rest of the nation, with CA as the present day exception. Please understand, that I too would like access to Roman Catholic records, especially those of my grandparents' marriage circa 1913. However, I believe that you do not understand the tremendous numbers of records, accumulated over many years, without a central location, that you would like to access. The Archdiocese does not make it easy and cost, manpower, and political agenda all interfere with us getting what we want. The Archdiocese of NY and Brooklyn has no central location of all records, period. Wishing for it is as tremendous of an endeavor as doing it, and only possibly attainable through grants from wealthy Roman Catholics, or interested "Trumps." I, for one, would appreciate your collection of Chicago facts, so that we might approach the Archdiocese of NY and Brookly with reasonable and possible requests, as well as the way to accomplish it. BMcK ct@earthlink.net writes: > But just as the public/government is "we the people" isn't the church > "the people in the pews/church militant" and not just the hierarchy? > > I don't have a problem kissing a bishop's ring as a sign of respect > for him personally and of his office, but it is a bit much than any > yahoo can approach the altar rail and receive the Body and Blood of > Christ without question but the sacramental records must be protected > from the genealogists. Again, if that were the case then why are > Chicago's records available through the FHL and Ireland's records are > filmed as well(but not all of them are available through FHL)? > > The three main issues seem to be cost, privacy and feasibility. > > Cost is a moot point because Chicago did it. > > Privacy is a moot point again because Chicago did it. > > Feasibility is a moot point because many records have been > microfilmed and digitized through Ancestry.com, IGI etc. ************************************** See AOL's top rated recipes (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004)

This is a popular 70s phrase, to those of us who studied in Catholic colleges: "ecumenism", rhymes with humanism. It has to do with various religions working together with mutual respect and priorities. Simple? megan@cfl.rr.com writes: > I do volunteer for the Italian Gen website and as a matter of fact, am > typing in a batch of naturalization information now. But unfortunately none > > of my NYC Irish Catholic ancestors who married in the second half of the > 19th century can be found on their website. None. Zip. Nada. As for the > Mormons, God bless them! They are very kind and generous with their > genealogy resources. So what if they have an ulterior motive? If we > believe in our theology, then anything they do can have no impact on the > souls of our Catholic ancestors. Besides, wouldn't they already be at risk > from the census records that are readily available? Do the Bishops think > they are hiding these ancestors from the Mormon Church? Couldn't they just > be baptized from a City Directory? All kidding aside, let's just keep > asking those in charge to find a way to get this historical information not > only accessible but protected. I fear the loss of these records from fire > or other dangers more than I do that my ancestors will suddenly switch > faiths in the after life! > > Melanie ************************************** See AOL's top rated recipes (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004)

Remember: power, politics and men. kmct@earthlink.net writes: > Subj:Re: [IRISH-NYC] NYC Archdiocesan searches > Date:12/31/2007 9:57:42 PM Eastern Standard Time > From:kmct@earthlink.net > Reply-to:irish-new-york-city@rootsweb.com > To:mcshelly2@msn.com, irish-new-york-city@rootsweb.com > Sent from the Internet > > > > My ancestors are burning in hell or enjoying the bliss of heaven or > experiencing the purging fires on their way to heaven based on their > lives and the state of their souls at the time of death. Assuming > that the Mormon ordinances are not what Jesus wants, it still has no > bearing at all on the souls of already dead people. You mean to tell > me that Francis of Assisi was in heaven until he was baptized Mormon > and then all of a sudden his soul was flushed from heaven and burning > in hell? How weak must the NYC Catholic and German Lutheran bishops' > faith be? It is basic theology that no Protestant or Catholic should > worry about what a Mormon does with regards to these records. I am a > Catholic in good standing and find it ridiculous that I can't easily > access certain church records because of what a Mormon is doing. ************************************** See AOL's top rated recipes (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004)

Dorothy, As I stayed earlier, I volunteered with a specific parish and Calvary Cemetery. Someone else offered a computer. We have to respect their desire to have trained employees perform the reasearch. B McK Stewartdor@aol.com writes: > I belong to a volunteer group and every so often receive a package of > copies > of index cards showing births, marriages, etc. The information is then > typed into an Excel spreadsheet. > > I'm sure there are many of us who would be only too happy to do this. I > live > two hours from New York City and I'd be willing to visit different parishes > > on a once a week basis to do this type of work. > > Dorothy ************************************** See AOL's top rated recipes (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004)

Thanf you for sharing this McShelley. you should also, note on your check what records you requested for this check. B McK mcshelly2@msn.com writes:> > "....... You really must be willing to send a "donation." Either > include something or phone ahead to ask their preferred amount." > > And for heaven's sake, if you are asking for a search and really > expect someone to do that for you, enclose at least $20 and do > refer to that amount in your letter. Oftentimes the check is cashed > long before anyone gets around to answering the letter request --- > and due to a lot of changes at a seminary, it was 12 years before > a letter of ours was answered --- but it was a real treasure trove > when we finally got the response! > > No good and honorable person can refuse to do the work if the check > has been cashed and you enclose your SASE. So let them know in the > letter. > > But it may be that the request gets packed up in storage for a year or > gets burned up in a fire or gets moved from Boston to Baltimore when > that order of priests closes a seminary or an office --- and no one > unpacks the carton for the next ten years! ************************************** See AOL's top rated recipes (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004)

Thank you Maureen. This LDS issue is a major reason the Catholic Chruch is not cooperative. It is an ecclesiastical conflict. It is important for critics to understand how the polictics of religion interfere with their record searches. BMc mcshelly2@msn.com writes: > There has been a problem with the LDS because, as you may or may not > know, the LDS family researchers re-baptize all of their ancestors as > Mormons, that is their sole purpose for doing the filming and opening > their Family History Centers. > > The un-cooperating Catholic Bishops here and Lutheran Bishops in Germany > feel that is not ethical practice -- nor what those individual souls would > ever > wish for! > > So they are protecting your dear ancestors from what they believe is an > eternal fate far worse than your temporal anger with ecclesiastical > authorities! > ************************************** See AOL's top rated recipes (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004)

In a message dated 12/31/2007 3:18:07 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, irish-new-york-city-request@rootsweb.com writes: Letter I meant to send this spring but never did. Your thoughts, please? ----------- You may or may not like my thoughts, but I am offering them. If the Bishop reads this letter and in any way feels like you are making him or the Church wrong by their actions, they will most likely immediately reply with a resounding NO. If he feels that your letter basically demands a YES, he will feel no freedom to say yes, or to even investigate any possibility of a project. It's actually a human phenomenon that most of us suffer from, and I would allege that priests and bishops are no different. I suggest you write your letter in a way that has them WANT to look at the possibility of such a project. That's probably the only way they might even have a slight interest. I too have obtained records from Chicago. I have been very fortunate that most of my family has Chicago connections. However, even when I made an inquiry to an old church in Haverstraw, NY, my check was cashed and no response ever was made. I wrote back to them numerous times, even mentioning my cousin who was at that time also a priest. Nope, nothing. I also had the same conversation with our local pastor when we lived in Indiana. He voiced the same concern over privacy and that the records are owned by the Church as an entity. Not to any people. Just some thoughts. Denise Editor, The Irish Everywhere Newsletter _www.irish-everywhere.com_ (http://www.irish-everywhere.com/) **************************************See AOL's top rated recipes (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004)

Maureen, My maternal Irish born grandfather was "re-baptized" as a Mormon. I do not share the Mormon's belief that one's faith can be changed by being included as part of another religious group. My grandfather was born, raised, was married, died and was buried as a Catholic and nothing mortally can change that. I know that. The Church knows that but what about people 200-300 years from now. Would they understand that when they are researching? That being said, the records belong to the Catholic Church whether here or in another country. The Church's view is that they are sacramental records. Some dioceses are more strict about that policy than others (ever try to get a record from Tipperary or Kerry?). Nora Hopkins FitzGerald Hopkins - Castlebar, Co. Mayo/New York City Grant - Drumboniff, Co. Down/NYC In a message dated 12/31/2007 9:18:29 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, mcshelly2@msn.com writes: There has been a problem with the LDS because, as you may or may not know, the LDS family researchers re-baptize all of their ancestors as Mormons, that is their sole purpose for doing the filming and opening their Family History Centers. The un-cooperating Catholic Bishops here and Lutheran Bishops in Germany feel that is not ethical practice -- nor what those individual souls would ever wish for! So they are protecting your dear ancestors from what they believe is an eternal fate far worse than your temporal anger with ecclesiastical authorities! Maureen **************************************See AOL's top rated recipes (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004)

I do volunteer for the Italian Gen website and as a matter of fact, am typing in a batch of naturalization information now. But unfortunately none of my NYC Irish Catholic ancestors who married in the second half of the 19th century can be found on their website. None. Zip. Nada. As for the Mormons, God bless them! They are very kind and generous with their genealogy resources. So what if they have an ulterior motive? If we believe in our theology, then anything they do can have no impact on the souls of our Catholic ancestors. Besides, wouldn't they already be at risk from the census records that are readily available? Do the Bishops think they are hiding these ancestors from the Mormon Church? Couldn't they just be baptized from a City Directory? All kidding aside, let's just keep asking those in charge to find a way to get this historical information not only accessible but protected. I fear the loss of these records from fire or other dangers more than I do that my ancestors will suddenly switch faiths in the after life! Melanie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Maureen" <mcshelly2@msn.com> To: <irish-new-york-city@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, December 31, 2007 9:07 PM Subject: Re: [IRISH-NYC] NYC Archdiocesan searches >I found weddings and deaths of my NYC Irish ancestors on Italian Gen. > They have a wonderful resource and I suggest that everyone go to their > web site and volunteer at something that is already "up and going so > well." > > It is best for all if the records are online rather than given to one > person > privately -- perhaps over and over again as various researchers ask -- > and > Italian Gen has done a marvelous job so far, but needs volunteers to put > up additional years. > > I think once they show what a careful and wonderful job they have done, > the Archdiocese might be proud to let them have the sacramental records. > > There has been a problem with the LDS because, as you may or may not > know, the LDS family researchers re-baptize all of their ancestors as > Mormons, that is their sole purpose for doing the filming and opening > their Family History Centers. > > The un-cooperating Catholic Bishops here and Lutheran Bishops in Germany > feel that is not ethical practice -- nor what those individual souls would > ever > wish for! > > So they are protecting your dear ancestors from what they believe is an > eternal fate far worse than your temporal anger with ecclesiastical > authorities! > > Maureen > ----- Original Message ----- > From: HeirLinesNY@aol.com > To: irish-new-york-city@rootsweb.com > Sent: Sunday, December 30, 2007 2:08 AM > Subject: [IRISH-NYC] NYC Archdiocesan searches > > > Absolutely wonderful idea, but you are depending upon the individual > parishes > reporting accurately to the Archdiocese. > Believe me, in NYC, they will not consider such searches for $2. each. > > I don't understand how this resolves the privacy issue. > BMc > > kmct@earthlink.net writes: > > > > Below in black is a copy of a correspondence I have started to send > > to genealogy groups in the NY metro area. If anyone has suggestions > > or ideas please share them. This is a "problem" that has a solution > > that is acceptable to everyone. We want the records information, the > > secretaries want to be left alone and the priests do to. I don't know > > that the parishes are bankrolling much if any money of this by the > > end of the day. I agree that the costs are a bit steep but don't > > envision that there are that many requests every day of the month. > > > > > > My ancestors were all Irish immigrants who arrived in Manhattan > > between 1871-1925. They were Catholics. I am hoping to get a group > > of genealogists together to approach the Archdiocese of NY to make > > their sacramental records more readily available to the public. Many > > births and weddings went unrecorded in the 19th-century so the > > baptismal and marriage records are the only documents that exist to > > substantiate a date of birth, maiden name, relatives' names as > > witnesses etc. The records exist in their paper form only and are > > kept at the local parish or successor parish if the church was closed/ > > torn down. > > > > I know this is an odd request but my approaches as an individual have > > not helped, so I am reaching out to see what groups may be interested > > in approaching the issue in numbers. > > > > I am surprised that the parishes don't realize that the an > > archdiocesan index would benefit them greatly. If a master index > > existed the archdiocese could maintain it and charge a fee of say $2 > > a request. Then once we had the right parish we would write to them > > and pay an extra 10 or even 20 dollars at the parish. If we knew it > > was the right parish it would make the cost worthwhile. That is a win > > win for all involved. The archdiocese would get money it does not get > > currently. The parish would spend less time on goose chases and be > > fully compensated for its searches. It would also preserve the books > > because the book would only be searched for the page needed and no > more. > > > > This would also eliminate any "privacy" concerns that might be raised. > > > > > > > ************************************** > See AOL's top rated recipes > (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004) > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >

I belong to a volunteer group and every so often receive a package of copies of index cards showing births, marriages, etc. The information is then typed into an Excel spreadsheet. I'm sure there are many of us who would be only too happy to do this. I live two hours from New York City and I'd be willing to visit different parishes on a once a week basis to do this type of work. Dorothy **************************************See AOL's top rated recipes (http://food.aol.com/top-rated-recipes?NCID=aoltop00030000000004)