Randy, Is there a Holy Cross Church associated with Holy Cross cemetery in Flatbush?

To avoid embarrassment it is important to remember that "Scotch" is what you drink and "Scots" are the people. Terry > -----Original Message----- > From: Louise [mailto:[email protected]] > Sent: 05 June 2005 16:15 > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [IRISH-NYC] Definition---"Scotch Irish?" > > One of the most useful and newest books on this is: > > Born Fighting : How the Scots-Irish Shaped America by James Webb. > Check out Amazon for more detail. > > The correct term - I am told - is Scots-Irish. I have done some > work on this because of our family history and visited places in rural > Kentucky, where there are many Scot Irish families that go way back. > Apparently the term Scotch Irish is not correct but is commonly used. > (Older members of our family still use Scotch Irish.) The author, James > Web, formerly a government official, appeared on a television book > show and what he had to say was fascinating. > > > > ==== IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY Mailing List ==== > Please visit the list websites: > http://www.irishinnyc.freeservers.com > http://www.inyc.freeservers.com > They are works in progress. Thank you for your patience! > > ============================== > Jumpstart your genealogy with OneWorldTree. Search not only for > ancestors, but entire generations. Learn more: > http://www.ancestry.com/s13972/rd.ashx

Or, a more banal definition is the Irish who came during and after the potato famine. They were referred to as Scots-Irish so as not to mistake them for the "old Irish" who had already been here for a century, establish their names and property. A bit of a snobbish definition, I would say. Genie ----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 1:00 PM Subject: IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY-D Digest V05 #151

On July 23, 1938 my grandmother Isabell M. Creen wrote a letter to her mother Charlotte Kerner Creen O'Donnell. In Oct. my grandmother died a horrible death at the age of 33. In the letter my grandmother mentions a "Spiritualist". Does this sound familiar to anyone-- "This spiritualist I told you about opened a beautiful tea garden up here and when he died a man by the name of Barclay turned it into a dance place in fact its really like a night club. They have a bar and grill and swell orchestra. His wife Kay Barclay and I have become quite friendly. They close the place up here in Sept and have another they open during the winter in Fla (Florida)...That spiritualists house you were asking me about is 11 rooms has two bath rooms steam heat and elec. It is on 11 acres of ground and also has two smaller houses on it, plenty of fruit trees etc. but I would never be contented sleeping in a haunted house." For the mountains may depart and the hills be removed, but my steadfast love shall not depart from you, and my covenant of peace shall not be removed, says the LORD, who has compassion on you. Isaiah 54:10 --------------------------------- Discover Yahoo! Stay in touch with email, IM, photo sharing & more. Check it out!

That's not correct. The "potato Famine" Irish were the indigenous Irish. The ones who were almost exclusively Roman Catholic. They were the true Irish who had to leave their homeland because they were serfs in their own land and were starving to death. The English took everything from the Irish...Their National Identity, Language, Land, Faith and Food. Ireland was a bad place to live if you were Irish. The Scots-Irish migration began 100 or more years before the Potato Famine. Frank > From: "Genie Coats" <[email protected]> > Reply-To: [email protected] > Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 15:34:10 -0400 > To: [email protected] > Subject: [IRISH-NYC] Re: IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY-D Digest V05 #151 > Resent-From: [email protected] > Resent-Date: Sun, 5 Jun 2005 13:34:01 -0600 > > Or, a more banal definition is the Irish who came during and after the > potato famine. They were referred to as Scots-Irish so as not to mistake > them for the "old Irish" who had already been here for a century, establish > their names and property. A bit of a snobbish definition, I would say. > Genie > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]> > Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 1:00 PM > Subject: IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY-D Digest V05 #151 > > > > > ==== IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY Mailing List ==== > If you will be away for a few days, please unsub from the list to keep > yourself from bouncing off. > > ============================== > Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the > last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: > http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx > >

The Scots didn't have much better relations with the English than the Irish did. They were also persecuted and many came to Ireland where they could practice their Presbyterian religion, at least for a period of time. When the conditions in Ireland oppressed them, they emigrated to the colonies. Wm Penn solicited many to settle his new colony, PA, offering good farm land and religious freedom. He needed to populate his colony. Many came. They often came into the harbors on the PA/DE borders. Many started in Chester, PA. Eventually, as land became scarcer in PA, they moved into the Great Valley of VA, coming through VA via Winchester, Harrisonburg, Staunton, and settled in Southwest VA, including Pittsylvania, Augusta, & Fincastle Cos. Many of these people eventually came to TN and then went onward to KY. These people were accustomed to always being on the move and never seemed to settle too long anywhere. They were always moving on to a "better" plot of land. Some of the Scot-Irish (not Scotch-Irish, which they find offensive) also continued south through Virginia to the Carolinas. The colonists wanted protection from the Indians on the frontier and liked the Scot-Irish settling there. They were excellent fighters and offered a good buffer from the Indians. Many of them figure significantly in the Indian engagements of the French-Indian War, and in the Revolutionary War, War of 1812, Seminole and other Indian wars. As a result of their military participation they often got land bounties which encouraged their further movement to new lands. An earlier group of Scot-Irish had been encouraged to go to New England from their Irish oppression, but that venture failed when the ship encountered problems and they returned to Ireland. Ev

Holy Cross Cemetary, Brooklyn, NY I thought since she was buried in the cemetary, she probably went to the church if there was one-- and high school if there was one as well - Thank you! Kathleen O'Donnell Grone Isabelle Creen O'Donnell was indeed buried Holy Cross (1-718-284-4520) . She is in the Saint Ann section, Row H, grave number 34, no marker, under the Patrick Cadigam family grave, for a total of five people buried in this grave site. Holy Cross records indicate that while Isabelle was born on Oct 5, 1905, she died on Oct 4, 1938. Holy Cross told him the gravesite had been in arrears since 1941 and there is no marker. >[email protected] >>i didnt see bkyln Jim Denning -Ygenealogist-MTgenealogist using Genetics to connect For the mountains may depart and the hills be removed, but my steadfast love shall not depart from you, and my covenant of peace shall not be removed, says the LORD, who has compassion on you. Isaiah 54:10 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com

Nancy, Being that I have very little on Mary - I have a ship record and know she was married to Michael O'Donnell - it is interesting that they both were in Brooklyn. Mary was born April 1842- so could be a sister. Also Mary's middle initial was E. which could be Ellen. I do grasp at straws but some of my Dad's family went by there middle name, including my Dad. I also have a picture of her holding a family Bible. So, I will save the information as it may come in handy later! It has happened before! Also, I wanted to mentioned that my mother in laws maiden name was Lyons -- hailed from PA?? from what I understand but don't know much. They came to NE for land way back when. Thank you! Kathleen Here are some things I have held onto and hopefully they can help someone- My family came over before Ellis Island so they would be on the Wall from what I understand. Wall of Honor, Ellis Island The Maurice Dineen Family Ireland 114 Patrick J. Dineen Ireland 114 Michael Dineen Ireland 114 Alice Dineen Ireland 114 Charles C. Dineen Ireland 114 Mary Anne Power Dineen Ireland 114 Patrick James Dineen Ireland 114 Charles R. Dineen Ireland 114 The Dineen Family County Cork, Ireland 506 Mary Dineen McCann Co. Cavan, Ireland 621 Ellen Dineen Creagh Ireland 593 Cork and Munster, Limerick, IR 17120 Dineen James Bakers 1915 18 Nicholas Street 17705 Dineen James Grocers 1915 33 Mary Street 19056 Dineen James Bakers 1918 18 Nicholas Street 19303 Dineen James Grocers 1918 33 Mary Street 20519 Dineen James Grocers 1920 33 Mary Street My Mary - Mary E. (Dineen) O'Donnell, mother-in-law, age 58, born April 1842 in Ireland, father born in Ireland, mother born in Ireland, widow, had 7 children with 2 living; to the United States in 1863, in this county for 37 years. The Dineens descend from the O'Duinnin sept of that county, and are anciently of the corca Laoidhe. The family served as poets and antiquarians to the McCarthy Mor and the Sullivans. Dinan and Dynan are variant spellings in Co. Cork. Some of the clan adopted the English surname of Downing, a name of Cork and Kerry. O'Hart gives 'O'Dinan or Downing as chiefs of Uaithne, now the barony of Owneybeg in Limerick. At the turn of the last century Dineen and Dinneen were the two preferred spellings of the name, both of which were centered in Co. Cork. Earlier in the census of 1659, Dinane was a principal name of county Cork". Dineen is more usually seen as Dinneen and it is a name generally from County Cork and it is from the Irish Ó Duinnín. The family name is derived from the Personal name Donn from the Irish word meaning brown. The family included a number of poets and historians. an Gael _________________ Also, the person who sent the article of my grandfather Lester O'Donnell -mounted patrolman- my aunt MaryAnn told me that there was another article in the 1940's she thought, maybe 1950's of him as an artist. I was hoping you could do a search for me or tell me how I can do a search. Thank you so much and the article of him was a rare treat! This one of him as an artist included pictures according to me aunt, who does not have the article. Blessings, Kathleen O'Donnell Grone For the mountains may depart and the hills be removed, but my steadfast love shall not depart from you, and my covenant of peace shall not be removed, says the LORD, who has compassion on you. Isaiah 54:10 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com

One of the most useful and newest books on this is: Born Fighting : How the Scots-Irish Shaped America by James Webb. Check out Amazon for more detail. The correct term - I am told - is Scots-Irish. I have done some work on this because of our family history and visited places in rural Kentucky, where there are many Scot Irish families that go way back. Apparently the term Scotch Irish is not correct but is commonly used. (Older members of our family still use Scotch Irish.) The author, James Web, formerly a government official, appeared on a television book show and what he had to say was fascinating.

scots / irish = scots plantation of ulster by cromwell in the 1600 app, interbred with local irish = ulster scots= scots /irish ----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Sunday, June 05, 2005 7:15 AM Subject: [IRISH-NYC] Definition---"Scotch Irish?" > Any folks out there who can clearly tell me what this term "Scotch Irish" > means? I keep getting contradictory messages. > > It certainly applies to lots of folks, so must be significant. > > Thanks, > Barb > > > ==== IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY Mailing List ==== > To post a message to the Irish-New-York-City list, please send your email > to: > [email protected] > > ============================== > Search Family and Local Histories for stories about your family and the > areas they lived. Over 85 million names added in the last 12 months. > Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13966/rd.ashx >

Any folks out there who can clearly tell me what this term "Scotch Irish" means? I keep getting contradictory messages. It certainly applies to lots of folks, so must be significant. Thanks, Barb

I was away when there was a lot of discussion on this list about Hanleys. My family has Hanley ancestors. Mary Hanley in the mid-to-late1800s. Manhattan and then moved to Red Hook in Brooklyn. Van Brunt Street, I think. Now I am home and looking for my records but I can't find much. I have records of previous Hanleys too. I can't find them. I'll have to look more and then organize better. Elizabeth Shannon

Kathleen, When my husband lived in East Flatbush, a few blocks from Holy Cross Cemetery, in the 1950s through 1970s, he went to St. Therese de Lisiex Church there, also called Little Flower. He went to the elementery school there. I just looked up some information and discovered that St. Therese de Liseux was started in 1926. I googled the church and found some websites about the school with some information and contacts for the school. Here is one: http://home.earthlink.net/~desmondcorp/tim/churches.htm And here is a website I just found that lists Catholic Churches in Brooklyn by the dates they were founded. It has links to maps and other relevant information.http://home.earthlink.net/~desmondcorp/tim/churches.htm Elizabeth Shannon In a message dated 6/5/2005 1:10:58 AM Eastern Standard Time, [email protected] writes: > > > According to my Dad she (Isabell M. Creen O'Donnell) went to a Catholic > school. Do you know if there is a church and school associated with Holy Cross > Cemetary? That is were she was buried. Thank you! Kathleen O'Donnell Grone > > >

In a message dated 6/5/2005 12:20:43 AM Eastern Standard Time, [email protected] writes: > > > I went back to look at my records and it only said she, Isabell M. Creen > O'Donnell went to school at OLPH in Flatbush, Brooklyn, NY and that she > graduated high school in 1922. If you went to OLPH elementary, which high school > would you most likely have gone to? Thank you! Kathleen O'Donnell Grone > > > For the mountains may depart and the hills be removed, but my steadfast love > shall not depart from you, and my covenant of peace shall not be removed, > says the LORD, who has compassion on you. Isaiah 54:10 > > Our Lady of Perpetual Help is in Sunset Park, which used to be considered part of Bay Ridge. It is not in Flatbush. The church and the elementary school are between 59th and 60th Streets and 5th and 6th Avenues. My husband lived near there as a child. I lived a half a block away from 1981 until 1991. My daughter was baptized there and went to the elementary school. The elementary school is still there. There was also a high school for girls also called O.L.P.H. there too, but it closed about ten years ago. Elizabeth Shannon

According to my Dad she (Isabell M. Creen O'Donnell) went to a Catholic school. Do you know if there is a church and school associated with Holy Cross Cemetary? That is were she was buried. Thank you! Kathleen O'Donnell Grone For the mountains may depart and the hills be removed, but my steadfast love shall not depart from you, and my covenant of peace shall not be removed, says the LORD, who has compassion on you. Isaiah 54:10 --------------------------------- Discover Yahoo! Stay in touch with email, IM, photo sharing & more. Check it out!

I have a new rootsweb mailing list for CREEN. Variants of Creen are O Creen, Ó Croidheáin, Creene, O Crean, Crean and Cryan. If any are interested in joining that would be wonderful!Thank you very much! Kathleen O'Donnell Grone For the mountains may depart and the hills be removed, but my steadfast love shall not depart from you, and my covenant of peace shall not be removed, says the LORD, who has compassion on you. Isaiah 54:10 --------------------------------- Discover Yahoo! Stay in touch with email, IM, photo sharing & more. Check it out!

Calling all Dineens! If there are Dineens I would love to chat with them- I am looking for Mary Dineen, married to Michael O'Donnell- Would love to chat with Jim Dineen. Thank you very much! Kathleen O'Donnell Grone, South Dakota Descendants of Mary E. Dineen 1 Mary E. DINEEN b: April 1842 in Limerick (??), Ireland d: Aft. 1910 in New York .. +Michael O'DONNELL b: Abt. 1837 in Inishkeel Parish, County Donegal, Ireland d: in New York m: in Donegal, Ireland ... 2 Alice Faye O'DONNELL b: December 1871 in County Donegal, Ireland d: in New York ....... +Eli A. KILLEM b: 1870 ... 2 James J. O'DONNELL b: July 17, 1880 in President Street, New York City, New York d: December 8, 1931 in Brooklyn, New York ....... +Mary HARRIGAN b: 1881 in Brooklyn, New York d: January 28, 1914 in Brooklyn, New York m: Abt. 1900 in New York ... *2nd Wife of James J. O'Donnell: ....... +Charlotte "Lottie" KERNER b: November 27, 1886 in Brooklyn, New York d: March 13, 1959 in New York m: 1923 in New York Name: Mary Odonnell -- Age in 1910: 69 Estimated Birth Year: 1840 Home in 1910: 20-WD BROOKLYN, KINGS, New York (What does 20-WD mean?) Race: White Gender: Female Series: T624 Roll: 970 Part: 1 Page: 133B Year: 1910 The 1900 census, Brooklyn, Ward 29, Ft Hamilton Ave in NY has the following entry: Eli A. Kellem, 29 yrs old, born Sept 1870 in NJ, Father born in NJ, mother born in SC, occupation-pipe fitter Alice F., wife, 28 yrs old, born Dec 1871 in NY, father born in Ireland, mother born in Ireland, married for 8 yrs, had 8 children with 3 living Alice F., daughter, age 6, born Oct 1893 in NY Albert J., son, age 3, born Nov 1896 in NY Ethel M., daughter, age 1, born Oct 1898 Mary E. O'Donnell, mother-in-law, age 58, born April 1842 in Ireland, father born in Ireland, mother born in Ireland, widow, had 7 children with 2 living; to the United States in 1863, in this county for 37 years. >>>Kathleen, I have no idea if this is a help or not. One of the list members searched for one of his relatives--one I knew slightly--but you might find this a thought. I believe it was a Jim Dineen, in NYS, looking for relatives (as I recall vaguely) of his loved uncle, Rev. Timothy Dineen, SJ, who was one of Jim's heroes. Fr. Dineen was very kind to him. You might post a message to Jim--or to someone who may know of him. I regret I cannot help you further. Regards, Winifred O'D For the mountains may depart and the hills be removed, but my steadfast love shall not depart from you, and my covenant of peace shall not be removed, says the LORD, who has compassion on you. Isaiah 54:10 --------------------------------- Discover Yahoo! Find restaurants, movies, travel & more fun for the weekend. Check it out!

I went back to look at my records and it only said she, Isabell M. Creen O'Donnell went to school at OLPH in Flatbush, Brooklyn, NY and that she graduated high school in 1922. If you went to OLPH elementary, which high school would you most likely have gone to? Thank you! Kathleen O'Donnell Grone For the mountains may depart and the hills be removed, but my steadfast love shall not depart from you, and my covenant of peace shall not be removed, says the LORD, who has compassion on you. Isaiah 54:10 --------------------------------- Discover Yahoo! Get on-the-go sports scores, stock quotes, news & more. Check it out!

Thought you all might fall in love with Thomas Kelly's new book, "Empire Rising: A Novel". Set in NYC during the 1930s, Kelly tells the story of how the Irish built the Empire State Building. Kelly is a native New Yorker of Irish descent and former construction worker. Trust me, after you read this, you'll never look at the Empire State Building the same way again! "Empire Rising: A Novel" Thomas Kelly Publishers: Farrar, Straus and Giroux ISBN: 0374147817 You can read an interview with Kelly at the Wild Geese: http://www.thewildgeese.com/pages/kell-t.html I just loved his comments on the Irish and New York City - and why they've always made such a great pair! Take care, Tracy IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY list admin http://www.irishinnyc.freeservers.com http://www.inyc.freeservers.com

In case any of you forgot, this weekend is the Slainte Irish Festival in Patchogue. Billed as the largest Irish festival in New York State, the festival will feature the usual vendors and genealogy info booths. This year's slated performers include Tommy Makem, the Makem Brothers, Black '47, the Prodigals, Ceili Rain and Cherish the Ladies. The festival is FREE and will run from 11 am until 11 pm, all three days, rain or shine. Free shuttle service will be available from the Patchogue train station. For more information on the festival, including directions and a schedule of events, please see: http://www.slainteirishfestival.com Hope to see you there! Take care, Tracy IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY list admin http://www.irishinnyc.freeservers.com http://www.inyc.freeservers.com