What was Hudson Street like in the mid - to - late 1800s? Interested in the area between the 200 - 400 blocks. Thanks very much. **** All outgoing mail scanned by Norton Anti-virus **** ----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Saturday, June 11, 2005 11:23 PM Subject: IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY-D Digest V05 #160

Dorothy What a brilliant description of Hell's Kitchen, it brought the area alive for me in respect of my family who lived there from 1886 onwards. Aso as my Sheridan family (all six brothers including my Grandfather Thomas) were "drivers" Haulage and Chauffer (Thomas) living on W.37th, W.38th and 11th Avenue at that time, it just felt very relative. Thank you so much, Yvonne Birmingham England ----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2005 1:49 AM Subject: [IRISH-NYC] Hell's Kitchen My great-great-grandfather arrived in Hell’s Kitchen in 1839 and the family stayed there until my Father left when he married my Mom. My Father, born in 1909, grew up in Hell’s Kitchen and told me many stories about that area. He told me how he would sometimes play softball with the "local guys" on l0th Avenue and on occasion Marty Madden, a bootlegger during Prohibition, who owned the "Cotton Club" in Harlem, would join them. Marty was one of the Madden Mob who controlled “Hells’s Kitchen.” When my Fther was getting his driver ’s license, it was one of the Madden brothers who loaned my Dad a car. When Madden was being threatened with exportation (he was from England and the government was trying to send him back), my Father gave out petitions to be signed while working as a truck driver and he collected hundreds. (Madden was allowed to stay in New York). My Father sometimes delivered "bootleg" liquor to the Cotton Club by truck. My Father admitted to me that when he was a young boy he daydreamed about becoming a "numbers runner" since he always thought they made "good money." Many of the buildings in the “Hell’s Kitchen” area had stables on the main floor (today those stable areas are now stores, car repair shops, etc . My Father told me the bathrooms were down the hall. My Father's grandfather and uncles were owners of horses and wagons and they kept their horses in these stables. They sold vegetables in the streets of New York City. (I was once talking to someone who was bragging about her family and obviously attempting to impress me. When she asked me what my family did, I sweetly answered that they were in "produce"). I was very lucky that my Father was still alive when I started my family search and I sat with him many nights asking him about his family. To give you an idea of the area (this would be in the very early 1900's): My grandparents' first apartment had three rooms on the third floor and they later moved downstairs to the second floor to a cold water flat with a bathroom (toilet only) shared by two families. Bathing was done at public baths and one could also "wash near the stove." My grandmother did her wash by hand but eventually she sent it out and it was returned to her wet. She then had to carry it upstairs to the roof to hang it out. The apartment was heated by a coal stove which was also used as an oven. To give you an idea of a workingman's life in the late 1800's to early 1900's: My great-grandfather woke at 4:00 a.m., hooked up a team of horses to his wagon at a stable on 36th Street between 10th and 11th Avenue, picked up pigs at the freight yard and rode them to Rohe's Brothers, a pork dealer "similar to Merkels," which was across the street from the stable where he kept his horses. During the day he went to a market downtown and bought produce (vegetables and fruit) and sold it from his wagons with his sons. On some afternoons he drove a horse-pulled coach (which he also owned) to the cemetery for funerals. The cemetery (Calvary Cemetery) was in Queens and he had to travel over the 59th Street Bridge to get there. (For funerals he used a "better team of horses" which he also owned. He also owned a hansom which one of his sons drove.). Late in the afternoon when he was not busy driving his horse and coach for the funerals, he could be found working in the stable with his sons. As you can see, life was very hard in those days. When I asked my Father if my great-grandfather was a rich man (since he owned all those horses, carriages, etc), his response was, "How could anyone be rich if you were raising twelve children" My Father told me the that the area was a very "mixed" neighborhood (meaning people of all nationalities lived there). Trains ran above ground from St. John's Park which was a New York Central freight station, up West Street by the river, on to 10th Avenue and then up 11th Avenue. 11th Avenue was called "Death Avenue" because of the amount of people killed by the trains. I know this is not a great description of the area but I hope it helps to give you an idea of what it was like there. Dorothy ==== IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY Mailing List ==== Please keep your anti-virus software up-to-date and run frequent scans! ============================== Census images 1901, 1891, 1881 and 1871, plus so much more. Ancestry.com's United Kingdom & Ireland Collection. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13968/rd.ashx

Vince, Fort Hamilton is in Bayridge area. Know any Campbells or Brosnans?

In a message dated 6/11/2005, [email protected] writes: Can anyone tell me if the old Irish of New York City ( pre-potato famine) lived on the Upper East side of Manhatthan? Where Harlem is now? And was it supposed to be a fashionable place to live in the 1850's? Hi Genie, Yes, there was a one time a large Irish and German population living in Harlem. The area was home to many moneyed families, and immigrants could find employment as domestic servants. There was one particular part of Harlem that was, and still is, quite exclusive. It's called Sugar Hill. We did a profile on Harlem during the Neighborhood series. You can read the history of the area at: http://www.irishinnyc.freeservers.com/custom.html Take care, Tracy IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY list admin http://www.irishinnyc.freeservers.com http://www.inyc.freeservers.com

Hi Kathleen, I hope you get the chance to read the series on Hell's Kitchen that's on the list website. We had also profiled a few other neighborhoods in NYC that had a large Irish population. You can learn even more about Hell's Kitchen by reading the Draft Riot series on the list website. Sadly, the area was home to a true slaughter on Tenth Avenue. We have many people on the list who are former Hell's Kitchen residents. When we were running the series on the list, many of them were kind enough to email me their adventures in the neighborhood. It would be an understatement to say that it made fascinating reading! I once met a woman who, I guess, was trying to impress me with where she lived in Manhattan. She was going on and on about how she had this, and she had that, etc. When I asked her what neighborhood she lived in, she replied that she lived in Clinton. (I guess she thought that made the area sound very chic.) I then said, "Oh, you live in Hell's Kitchen!" Boy did her face drop! But I have a true affection for the area. I think that to most New Yorkers, the area will always be Hell's Kitchen. Take care, Tracy IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY list admin http://www.irishinnyc.freeservers.com http://www.inyc.freeservers.com

It is just impossible to stump anyone on this list! You're all way too smart! Hope you're all having a great weekend! Take care, Tracy IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY list admin http://www.irishinnyc.freeservers.com http://www.inyc.freeservers.com

Dorothy Stewart's account of her family's life and business in Hell's Kitchen was just terrific! This question may sound silly, but can someone give me some idea of what a "machinist" would have done in NYC in the 1870-1900 period? Both my grandfather and great-grandfather identified themselves as "machinists" in the 1880 and 1900 Censuses and I wish I had a better, more complete sense of what they did and how they did it. Yes, the Industrial Revolution was well underway by then and NYC was a manufacturing center. Would a factory floor "grunt" operating a lathe, a grinder or punch-press have described himself as a "machinist"? Did someone have to be skill-trained to qualify for the title, "machinist," or was it a sort of a generalized, one-size-fits-all descriptor for any man who worked in a factory or small machine shop, regardless of specific function? Does anyone know of a book, books or articles that describe the NYC working man's life for that era? Thanks. G. Alexander

Hope that story will clear the air. Jerry Rosenthal

Here is copy of story from Tenement Museum June 2005 ...That Canal Street was once the site of a man-made canal. During the 1810s, an eight-foot ditch was dug along what is today Canal Street in order to drain Collect Pond, which existed near present-day Foley Square. Once pristine, the pond had become "a shocking hole…foul with excrement."* Neighboring breweries and tanneries dumped their refuse into the pond, which created a polluted hole that posed serious economic and public health conditions. The canal only exacerbated these problems. Because it did not flow smoothly, the canal became a fetid open sewer. And, although it was covered in 1819, city engineers failed to install air traps, creating a stinking covered sewer instead. Moreover, city leaders failed to realize that the pond was fed not by collected rain water, but by underground springs. By the 1830s, these springs helped create New York's first slum, the Five Points, whose streets became muddy lanes obstructed by putrid muck. -- Dave Favaloro, Research Coordinator Jerry Rosenthal

Kathleen, Fort Hamiltom Avenue is now Fort Hamilton Parkway. I lived at 2906 for many years in the 1940's. Vince ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kathleen" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Saturday, June 11, 2005 5:08 PM Subject: [IRISH-NYC] Streets and More - Hell's Kitchen?? > Eleanor, Thank you!!! > > Kathleen (isn't this list fabulous!) Original ?* -- My replies** > > *Kerners- 1900 Census has them at - Ward 29, Ft Hamilton Ave in NY > > **Kerner's are Frederick (wife Sophie), son Philipp married to Jennie James, Aboard the ship, SS Ohio, arrival in NY on 23 Nov 1875 from Port of Bremen, Germany- Daughter Charlotte married Ruffus Creen then James J. O'Donnell. > I have Mary (Dineen) O'Donnell - Ward 20 in Brooklyn in 1910. Her husband was Michael. > > I can't find Kerner in Ward 29 except Rose who is a patient at LI State Hospital. What is Kerner's first name so I can look him up on another census source. > > Ward 29 is generally Flatbush, but Ft. Hamilton Avenue is not in Flatbush - it is closer to Bensonhurst or BayRidge, and not the same as Hamilton Ave. > > *I have Rufus Creen, father of Isabell M. Creen O'Donnell renting at 65 Green Street Brooklyn. Charlotte hadn't divorced him yet. 1910 Census > > Green Street is in Greenpoint, a part of Brooklyn I am not familiar with. > > What is the surname of the family on elm and what year did you find them there. If I look at the surround streets, I can make a better call as to where it is. > > **Creen although on one census it has Green but the name is Ruffus/Rufus (Joseph or J.) Creen. Is Flatbush part of Brooklyn? (Rufus son of John Creen and Annie Miner - both he says were born in NY. Found this in the 1904 Census, Manhatten.) > *On his Soc Sec application he put Flatbush, Brooklyn, NY. His wife Isabell Creen lists 59th Street as one of their addresses > > What is the full name of the gentleman born in Flatbush, and what year? > **Lester Aloyisius O'Donnell, August 30, 1908, he was my grandfather. His father was James J. O'Donnell, married at the time to Mary Harrigan O'D. Mary died at 216 Hoyt Street in 1914. Is Hoyt Street in Flatbush? > > > > Eleanor > > Does anyone know how I can possibly find out which ship my grandfather jumped on and where it went? At the age of 13 Lester's Father caught him chewing tabacco and locked him in the attic after making him eat the chew. Lester ran away and tried to join the army but was too young. He stowed away on a ship bound for South America. After traveling for several years he returned in 1922 or 1923. At the age of 17 in 1923 he married Isabell M. Creen. Thank you! Kathleen > > > For the mountains may depart and the hills be removed, but my steadfast love shall not depart from you, and my covenant of peace shall not be removed, says the LORD, who has compassion on you. Isaiah 54:10 > > > > > --------------------------------- > Yahoo! Mail Mobile > Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone. > > > ==== IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY Mailing List ==== > To unsub, send an email with "unsubscribe" (without the quotes) to either: > [email protected] (List Version) > [email protected] (Digest Version) > You can also unsubscribe from the website: > http://www.irishinnyc.freeservers.com > > ============================== > View and search Historical Newspapers. Read about your ancestors, find > marriage announcements and more. Learn more: > http://www.ancestry.com/s13969/rd.ashx > >

Are you kidding? That was excellent!! Thank you for writing that, my great-grandfather had a stable in Hoboken so it gave me an idea of his life. Thanks! n a message dated 6/11/2005 8:50:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [email protected] writes: > > I know this is not a great description of the area but I hope it helps to > give you an idea of what it was like there. > >

My great-great-grandfather arrived in Hell’s Kitchen in 1839 and the family stayed there until my Father left when he married my Mom. My Father, born in 1909, grew up in Hell’s Kitchen and told me many stories about that area. He told me how he would sometimes play softball with the "local guys" on l0th Avenue and on occasion Marty Madden, a bootlegger during Prohibition, who owned the "Cotton Club" in Harlem, would join them. Marty was one of the Madden Mob who controlled “Hells’s Kitchen.” When my Fther was getting his driver ’s license, it was one of the Madden brothers who loaned my Dad a car. When Madden was being threatened with exportation (he was from England and the government was trying to send him back), my Father gave out petitions to be signed while working as a truck driver and he collected hundreds. (Madden was allowed to stay in New York). My Father sometimes delivered "bootleg" liquor to the Cotton Club by truck. My Father admitted to me that when he was a young boy he daydreamed about becoming a "numbers runner" since he always thought they made "good money." Many of the buildings in the “Hell’s Kitchen” area had stables on the main floor (today those stable areas are now stores, car repair shops, etc . My Father told me the bathrooms were down the hall. My Father's grandfather and uncles were owners of horses and wagons and they kept their horses in these stables. They sold vegetables in the streets of New York City. (I was once talking to someone who was bragging about her family and obviously attempting to impress me. When she asked me what my family did, I sweetly answered that they were in "produce"). I was very lucky that my Father was still alive when I started my family search and I sat with him many nights asking him about his family. To give you an idea of the area (this would be in the very early 1900's): My grandparents' first apartment had three rooms on the third floor and they later moved downstairs to the second floor to a cold water flat with a bathroom (toilet only) shared by two families. Bathing was done at public baths and one could also "wash near the stove." My grandmother did her wash by hand but eventually she sent it out and it was returned to her wet. She then had to carry it upstairs to the roof to hang it out. The apartment was heated by a coal stove which was also used as an oven. To give you an idea of a workingman's life in the late 1800's to early 1900's: My great-grandfather woke at 4:00 a.m., hooked up a team of horses to his wagon at a stable on 36th Street between 10th and 11th Avenue, picked up pigs at the freight yard and rode them to Rohe's Brothers, a pork dealer "similar to Merkels," which was across the street from the stable where he kept his horses. During the day he went to a market downtown and bought produce (vegetables and fruit) and sold it from his wagons with his sons. On some afternoons he drove a horse-pulled coach (which he also owned) to the cemetery for funerals. The cemetery (Calvary Cemetery) was in Queens and he had to travel over the 59th Street Bridge to get there. (For funerals he used a "better team of horses" which he also owned. He also owned a hansom which one of his sons drove.). Late in the afternoon when he was not busy driving his horse and coach for the funerals, he could be found working in the stable with his sons. As you can see, life was very hard in those days. When I asked my Father if my great-grandfather was a rich man (since he owned all those horses, carriages, etc), his response was, "How could anyone be rich if you were raising twelve children" My Father told me the that the area was a very "mixed" neighborhood (meaning people of all nationalities lived there). Trains ran above ground from St. John's Park which was a New York Central freight station, up West Street by the river, on to 10th Avenue and then up 11th Avenue. 11th Avenue was called "Death Avenue" because of the amount of people killed by the trains. I know this is not a great description of the area but I hope it helps to give you an idea of what it was like there. Dorothy

Tracy's Irish New York city website, fantastic information! Here's the link to Neighborhoods Pt. 2, Hell's Kitchen just over half way down the page but all of it is an excellent read and very informative http://www.irishinnyc.freeservers.com/catalog.html Yvonne Happy reading Yvonne ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kathleen" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Saturday, June 11, 2005 7:21 PM Subject: [IRISH-NYC] Re: [Bklyn] Hell's Kitchen?? > > My Kerner family lived on Elm Street. I am told this was near "Hell's > Kitchen". Where exactly is "Hell's Kitchen"? My Michael and Mary Dineen > O'Donnell's lived at 37 Whitehall for a time (1860's-1870's) - this was > listed on the Naturalization paper. Later they moved to Hamilton Ave. > > 1900 Census has them at - Ward 29, Ft Hamilton Ave in NY > > I have Rufus Creen, father of Isabell M. Creen O'Donnell renting at 65 > Green Street Brooklyn. Charlotte hadn't divorced him yet. 1910 Census > There is an Elm Ave and an Elm Place in Brooklyn, do not see an Elm Place > in Manhattan but that does mean it was not there is 1860ish. I believe > Hell's Kitchen is Manhattan - west side up around 59th St. Try googling > it and you may get a better perspective. > I just have Elm St.? > At the following site you can get a glimpse of a house on Elm circa 1880 > and an old map. Click here: sgreenfield Elm Avenue is close to Brooklyn > College which is near Flatbush. > > Elm Place is in downtown Brooklyn. > > If you have any other information about this address, I could help you > place it more closely. > > The only Whitehall I know is in lower Manhattan near Battery Park and > Staten Island Ferry. The recruiting station > > 1876 my Mulvey's lived at 89 Hamilton Avenue. (6th Ward) > > > James J. O'D lived on Hoyt Street. I was told this was a horrible area as > well - tenement housing. His first wife, Mary Harrigan O'D - died there > (my great grandmother). Later in life he moved to 265 89th Street in > Brooklyn. He was born on Presidents Street. > It was not a great area, very poor, very Irish. I would say that 89th St > was quite a step up. My father was born at 106 President St in 1903. > > and later 17 Hausman Street, Brooklyn, NY > > > What kind of Neighborhood was Flatbush? My grandfather Lester was born > there. Was President St in Flatbush? President Street is Red Hook. Is > this in Brooklyn? > > What time frame are you talking about for Flatbush. My folks came to > Flatbush from Ireland in 1860. And I lived there until 1970 s0 I know a > lot about Flatbush. Do you know where in Flatbush the family lived. On > his Soc Sec application he put Flatbush, Brooklyn, NY. His wife Isabell > Creen lists 59th Street as one of their addresses > > Thank you for your time and trouble! Kathleen > > > > For the mountains may depart and the hills be removed, but my steadfast > love shall not depart from you, and my covenant of peace shall not be > removed, says the LORD, who has compassion on you. Isaiah 54:10 > > > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around > http://mail.yahoo.com > > > ==== IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY Mailing List ==== > Please keep your anti-virus software up-to-date and run frequent scans! > > ============================== > Search the US Census Collection. Over 140 million records added in the > last 12 months. Largest online collection in the world. Learn more: > http://www.ancestry.com/s13965/rd.ashx > >

Back in the 1860's-1880's, there WAS an Elm Street in lower Manhattan - very near City Hall. (An ancestor's family lived there). At some point Elm Street was renamed -- today it is Lafayette (between Worth and Spring streets). This isn't really near Hell's Kitchen, which is more in midtown Manhattan on the west side; Elm Street is close to the notorious Five Points area.

Kathleen: Women frequently suffered from post-partum depression (worse than the baby blues) and killed themselves or themselves and their children. It still happens today but we are much more aware of it than in those days. Can you imagine no birth control, giving birth at home with the other kids running around, no mother/mother-in-law coming in to help for a week and a husband who had to get up at the crack of dawn and was gone all day (no family leave then for dad!) It was a rough life for everyone and many women died young, in childbirth or were dead by the age of 35. Homes/tenements were heated/lit with gas jets and so were ranges. It could have been an accident or it could have been suicide - easy enough to put one's head in the oven and turn on the gas jets or to extinguish the flames on the heater and let the gas just put you to sleep. On the other side, appliances were not safe in those days, and could easily malfunction. I would assume it was an accident unless you had any proof otherwise. Mary Anne "Never put off until tomorrow what you can do the day after tomorrow." --Mark Twain -----Original Message----- From: Kathleen [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Saturday, June 11, 2005 5:38 PM To: [email protected] Subject: [IRISH-NYC] Re: History of Hell's Kitchen Thank you for the history of Hell's Kitchen. Interesting place but glad I didn't live there back then. How did people survive!? I simply love history as it makes the people -- my family come alive! I found another Ward 29- 216 Hoyt Street - funny how these people all live so close together and also seem to move around a lot. MARY HARRIGAN O'DONNELL (a BIG MYSTERY)- My great grandmother. She died four days after her last child was born and the wonder was, why didn't all four boys die as well? Was it a murder or suicide? She died a horrid death and it was investigated. An autopsy was performed and the cause of death was asphyxia due to gas poisoning. Details of medical examiner's report not included. No personal information was provided or known to the county medical examiner. She was buried in a pauper's grave at the County Farm on Feb 5, 1914 by the Dept. of Public Charities. I would like to find out more about her family. I have a father as John Harrigan but no mother. Her husband listed no parents! Which is weird as a John Harrigan lived next door or very nearby, but he may not be related- Children are Edwin, Lester, James, LeRoy. Name: Mary Odonnell Age in 1910: 29 Estimated Birth Year: 1880 Home in 1910: 29-WD BROOKLYN, KINGS, New York Race: White Gender: Female Series: T624 Roll: 983 Part: 2 Page: 66B Year: 1910 For the mountains may depart and the hills be removed, but my steadfast love shall not depart from you, and my covenant of peace shall not be removed, says the LORD, who has compassion on you. Isaiah 54:10 --------------------------------- Discover Yahoo! Get on-the-go sports scores, stock quotes, news & more. Check it out! ==== IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY Mailing List ==== If you will be away for a few days, please unsub from the list to keep yourself from bouncing off. ============================== Jumpstart your genealogy with OneWorldTree. Search not only for ancestors, but entire generations. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13972/rd.ashx

Hello to everyone. For those of you who are looking up Kerner's on Elm Street for me, please stop! A distant cousin from NY informed me of new info and it seems my Kerner's never lived on Elm Street-- So, I am looking for Peter Kerner/Koerner m. Louisa Munch. Came to the US about 1860-61. They were from Germany and lived on Rivington on the lower east side. They had a Saloon called Kerner's Saloon on Rivington and before that were bakers. This cousin who called, also Peter Kerner, remembers the sign or his father does--?? There son Phillip (b. 1862) married Jennie James (Scotland). Jennie's father was Samuel L. James, a lawyer. They were the parents of my great grandmother, Charlotte Kerner Creen who married James J. O'Donnell. Thank you! Kathleen Descendants of Samuel L. James 1 Samuel L. JAMES b: 1840 in London, England d: in New York .. +Mary Knox WEIR b: 1840 in Glasgow, Scotland d: in New York ... 2 Mary JAMES ... 2 Jennie JAMES b: November 8, 1863 in Glascow, Scotland d: Aft. 1930 in New York ....... +Philipp KERNER b: June 15, 1862 in New York City, New York d: December 1920 in New York m: 1880 in Frankfurt, Germany or NY ......... 3 May KERNER ......... 3 Jessica May KERNER ............. +John J. ROLSTON ......... 3 Charlotte "Lottie" KERNER b: November 27, 1886 in Brooklyn, New York d: March 13, 1959 in New York ............. +Rufus Joseph CREEN b: May 1885 in New York City, New York d: Abt. 1940 in New York m: October 26, 1904 in New York ......... *2nd Husband of Charlotte "Lottie" Kerner: ............. +James J. O'DONNELL b: July 17, 1880 in New York City, New York d: December 8, 1931 in Brooklyn, New York m: 1923 in New York ......... 3 Phillip KERNER ......... 3 Mary KERNER b: 1901 d: Aft. 1920 ... 2 Samuel JAMES b: 1866 in Ohio Descendants of Peter Petrus Koerner 1 Peter Petrus KOERNER b: 1834 in Germany .. +Louisa MUNCH b: 1823 in Germany m: Bef. June 1862 ... 2 Charles KERNER b: 1876 ... 2 Jacob KERNER b: 1860 ... 2 Philipp KERNER b: June 15, 1862 in New York City, New York d: December 1920 in New York ....... +Jennie JAMES b: November 8, 1863 in Glascow, Scotland d: Aft. 1930 in New York m: 1880 in Frankfurt, Germany or NY ......... 3 May KERNER ......... 3 Jessica May KERNER ............. +John J. ROLSTON ......... 3 Charlotte "Lottie" KERNER b: November 27, 1886 in Brooklyn, New York d: March 13, 1959 in New York ............. +Rufus Joseph CREEN b: May 1885 in New York City, New York d: Abt. 1940 in New York m: October 26, 1904 in New York ......... *2nd Husband of Charlotte "Lottie" Kerner: ............. +James J. O'DONNELL b: July 17, 1880 in New York City, New York d: December 8, 1931 in Brooklyn, New York m: 1923 in New York ......... 3 Phillip KERNER ......... 3 Mary KERNER b: 1901 d: Aft. 1920 ... 2 Elizabeth KERNER For the mountains may depart and the hills be removed, but my steadfast love shall not depart from you, and my covenant of peace shall not be removed, says the LORD, who has compassion on you. Isaiah 54:10 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com

My son lived on W. 36th St. for a year until last month. He's a student and works at an art college. That general area is called "Clinton" more than the older "Hell's Kitchen." The neighborhood to the north has been called Chelsea for a long time. We get a kick out of seeing the sign for the "Chelsea Clinton Health Center" that serves both neighborhoods. Elizabeth Shannon

Do you have any idea what Whitehall Street would have been like in the 1860's-1870's? Was there a nickname for the area? Were there houses or tenements? Was the area primarily Irish? Thank you again! Kathleen O'Donnell Grone >>Whitehall Street is far lower Manhattan (financial district now). For the mountains may depart and the hills be removed, but my steadfast love shall not depart from you, and my covenant of peace shall not be removed, says the LORD, who has compassion on you. Isaiah 54:10 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com

Thank you for the history of Hell's Kitchen. Interesting place but glad I didn't live there back then. How did people survive!? I simply love history as it makes the people -- my family come alive! I found another Ward 29- 216 Hoyt Street - funny how these people all live so close together and also seem to move around a lot. MARY HARRIGAN O'DONNELL (a BIG MYSTERY)- My great grandmother. She died four days after her last child was born and the wonder was, why didn't all four boys die as well? Was it a murder or suicide? She died a horrid death and it was investigated. An autopsy was performed and the cause of death was asphyxia due to gas poisoning. Details of medical examiner's report not included. No personal information was provided or known to the county medical examiner. She was buried in a pauper's grave at the County Farm on Feb 5, 1914 by the Dept. of Public Charities. I would like to find out more about her family. I have a father as John Harrigan but no mother. Her husband listed no parents! Which is weird as a John Harrigan lived next door or very nearby, but he may not be related- Children are Edwin, Lester, James, LeRoy. Name: Mary Odonnell Age in 1910: 29 Estimated Birth Year: 1880 Home in 1910: 29-WD BROOKLYN, KINGS, New York Race: White Gender: Female Series: T624 Roll: 983 Part: 2 Page: 66B Year: 1910 For the mountains may depart and the hills be removed, but my steadfast love shall not depart from you, and my covenant of peace shall not be removed, says the LORD, who has compassion on you. Isaiah 54:10 --------------------------------- Discover Yahoo! Get on-the-go sports scores, stock quotes, news & more. Check it out!

Eleanor, Thank you!!! Kathleen (isn't this list fabulous!) Original ?* -- My replies** *Kerners- 1900 Census has them at - Ward 29, Ft Hamilton Ave in NY **Kerner's are Frederick (wife Sophie), son Philipp married to Jennie James, Aboard the ship, SS Ohio, arrival in NY on 23 Nov 1875 from Port of Bremen, Germany- Daughter Charlotte married Ruffus Creen then James J. O'Donnell. I have Mary (Dineen) O'Donnell - Ward 20 in Brooklyn in 1910. Her husband was Michael. I can't find Kerner in Ward 29 except Rose who is a patient at LI State Hospital. What is Kerner's first name so I can look him up on another census source. Ward 29 is generally Flatbush, but Ft. Hamilton Avenue is not in Flatbush - it is closer to Bensonhurst or BayRidge, and not the same as Hamilton Ave. *I have Rufus Creen, father of Isabell M. Creen O'Donnell renting at 65 Green Street Brooklyn. Charlotte hadn't divorced him yet. 1910 Census Green Street is in Greenpoint, a part of Brooklyn I am not familiar with. What is the surname of the family on elm and what year did you find them there. If I look at the surround streets, I can make a better call as to where it is. **Creen although on one census it has Green but the name is Ruffus/Rufus (Joseph or J.) Creen. Is Flatbush part of Brooklyn? (Rufus son of John Creen and Annie Miner - both he says were born in NY. Found this in the 1904 Census, Manhatten.) *On his Soc Sec application he put Flatbush, Brooklyn, NY. His wife Isabell Creen lists 59th Street as one of their addresses What is the full name of the gentleman born in Flatbush, and what year? **Lester Aloyisius O'Donnell, August 30, 1908, he was my grandfather. His father was James J. O'Donnell, married at the time to Mary Harrigan O'D. Mary died at 216 Hoyt Street in 1914. Is Hoyt Street in Flatbush? Eleanor Does anyone know how I can possibly find out which ship my grandfather jumped on and where it went? At the age of 13 Lester's Father caught him chewing tabacco and locked him in the attic after making him eat the chew. Lester ran away and tried to join the army but was too young. He stowed away on a ship bound for South America. After traveling for several years he returned in 1922 or 1923. At the age of 17 in 1923 he married Isabell M. Creen. Thank you! Kathleen For the mountains may depart and the hills be removed, but my steadfast love shall not depart from you, and my covenant of peace shall not be removed, says the LORD, who has compassion on you. Isaiah 54:10 --------------------------------- Yahoo! Mail Mobile Take Yahoo! Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone.