Correct, Karen. But don't forget the fact that during the 1800's the census taker probably didn't goany further than the 8th grade, and mostly less than that. He/she had to rely on spelling what they heard, whether it was correct or not. The other half of mistakes were made this way. And then there were those who were hiding members of their families or just didn't want to share with the government for whatever reasons. Genie Coats ----- Original Message ----- From: <irish-new-york-city-request@rootsweb.com> To: <irish-new-york-city@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, July 07, 2007 3:32 AM Subject: IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY Digest, Vol 2, Issue 69 > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Census Questions and Sometimes-Unreliable Answers (Maureen) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2007 01:52:35 -0500 > From: "Maureen" <mcshelly2@msn.com> > Subject: [IRISH-NYC] Census Questions and Sometimes-Unreliable Answers > To: <irish-new-york-city@rootsweb.com> > Message-ID: <BAY111-DAV8787D85382A5CA6241444FE000@phx.gbl> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" > > Ancestry.com has the full description for each census with that census. > It is very easy to skip over the small print without reading it, but it is > very important as the questions are tricky on some of them, as you say. > > In addition to this, of course, there were the enumerators who only spoke > to the neighbors or the landlord (so had all the kids' ages, the wives' > names and sometimes the occupations wrong -- I have found much of this in > my own families). > > On the 1930 Census, someone called my newly married mother-in-law Gladys > instead of Vivian, said she was 30 instead of 24, and said her husband was > a 25-year-old policeman instead of a 28-year-old attorney. So whom did > they ask? Some old folks six floors up on the other side of the apartment > building who happened to be home? > > I did field research for the Bureau of the Census for many years and I > know how easy it would be to sit at home in your easy chair and make up > the answers instead of going out night after night to catch those folks > who aren't at home during the day, for instance. Or asking neighbors. And > if I had had a few too many beers with my lunch? > > One time nearly 20 years ago I went to call on four houses that never > existed -- a community swimming pool now -- and formerly, for 200 years, > at least, an Illinois corn and alfalfa field, according to the desk > sergeant of police and the town planning and zoning department. > > When I said to my boss, "How do you like this story?" he informed me that > the last time that particular survey of households was done there was a > brand new administration in Washington determined to cut costs at the > Bureau and the researchers were paid on a "per household" basis for that > particular survey, instead of on an hourly basis, which it was felt > encouraged some waste --- and there had been a lot of instances of that > sort of thing that I had found --- including multiple families at an > address which would turn out to have been a car wash, tire factory, > supermarket, apple orchard, etc. > > The other thing I found in those days was that the dads were usually only > absolutely certain of their first child's exact age and birth date -- and > had to consult the mother on the rest of the children, for whom they had a > reasonably good idea but could not be sure. And if the mother wasn't > there ...... > > In my day we were paid by the hour, but rated monthly on minutes per > household. Would YOU drive 20 miles each way on the weekend to try to > catch that mother at home? Was it worth it? In denying your time to your > family? Your laundry? Ruining your "minutes per household" rating and > your chance for a raise? Or would you take the father's word, he -- after > all -- being "the head of the household," hmmm? > > We seeks perfection in those who are only human -- and we are indeed lucky > when we chance to find it -- but it is purely chance, remember. If it's > perfect, the enumerator probably suffered from O.C.D.! > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Karen Brattesani > To: irish-new-york-city@rootsweb.com > Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2007 3:51 PM > Subject: Re: [IRISH-NYC] 1850 Census > > > I am responding because I want to caution you about making assumptions > about > people's ages, or other vital information based solely on the date census > data were collected. > > I recall learning that for some US censuses, the census taker was > supposed > to ask the respondents to answer as if it was a particular date in the > past, > say Jan. 1. or Apr. 1. This leads to some quirky findings. For example, > someone who had died after that date but before the date the census data > were collected would be included in the census rolls, but an infant born > between those two dates might not be included. > > I suppose that people might not have responded according to these > instructions or the census-taker did not ask according to these > instructions, leaving lots of room for error. > > I could not find the online source where I originally learned this, and > it > may or may not apply to the 1850 census. So, I am asking if anyone > recalls > seeing this info somewhere to confirm it. Sorry to be so vague about the > source, but I know this has been discussed on other genealogy lists > before. > > -Karen > > -----Original Message----- > From: irish-new-york-city-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:irish-new-york-city-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Marge > Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2007 1:11 PM > To: IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY@rootsweb.com > Subject: [IRISH-NYC] 1850 Census > > Thanks for the answer. The 1850 Census for the Crane family was taken > August 13, 1850. > > Marge > > No virus found in this outgoing message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.10.0/887 - Release Date: 7/5/2007 > 1:55 PM > > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' > without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ------------------------------ > > To contact the IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY list administrator, send an email to > IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY-admin@rootsweb.com. > > To post a message to the IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY mailing list, send an email > to IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY@rootsweb.com. > > __________________________________________________________ > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY-request@rootsweb.com > with the word "unsubscribe" without the quotes in the subject and the body > of the > email with no additional text. > > > End of IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY Digest, Vol 2, Issue 69 > **************************************************

Ancestry.com has the full description for each census with that census. It is very easy to skip over the small print without reading it, but it is very important as the questions are tricky on some of them, as you say. In addition to this, of course, there were the enumerators who only spoke to the neighbors or the landlord (so had all the kids' ages, the wives' names and sometimes the occupations wrong -- I have found much of this in my own families). On the 1930 Census, someone called my newly married mother-in-law Gladys instead of Vivian, said she was 30 instead of 24, and said her husband was a 25-year-old policeman instead of a 28-year-old attorney. So whom did they ask? Some old folks six floors up on the other side of the apartment building who happened to be home? I did field research for the Bureau of the Census for many years and I know how easy it would be to sit at home in your easy chair and make up the answers instead of going out night after night to catch those folks who aren't at home during the day, for instance. Or asking neighbors. And if I had had a few too many beers with my lunch? One time nearly 20 years ago I went to call on four houses that never existed -- a community swimming pool now -- and formerly, for 200 years, at least, an Illinois corn and alfalfa field, according to the desk sergeant of police and the town planning and zoning department. When I said to my boss, "How do you like this story?" he informed me that the last time that particular survey of households was done there was a brand new administration in Washington determined to cut costs at the Bureau and the researchers were paid on a "per household" basis for that particular survey, instead of on an hourly basis, which it was felt encouraged some waste --- and there had been a lot of instances of that sort of thing that I had found --- including multiple families at an address which would turn out to have been a car wash, tire factory, supermarket, apple orchard, etc. The other thing I found in those days was that the dads were usually only absolutely certain of their first child's exact age and birth date -- and had to consult the mother on the rest of the children, for whom they had a reasonably good idea but could not be sure. And if the mother wasn't there ...... In my day we were paid by the hour, but rated monthly on minutes per household. Would YOU drive 20 miles each way on the weekend to try to catch that mother at home? Was it worth it? In denying your time to your family? Your laundry? Ruining your "minutes per household" rating and your chance for a raise? Or would you take the father's word, he -- after all -- being "the head of the household," hmmm? We seeks perfection in those who are only human -- and we are indeed lucky when we chance to find it -- but it is purely chance, remember. If it's perfect, the enumerator probably suffered from O.C.D.! ----- Original Message ----- From: Karen Brattesani To: irish-new-york-city@rootsweb.com Sent: Thursday, July 05, 2007 3:51 PM Subject: Re: [IRISH-NYC] 1850 Census I am responding because I want to caution you about making assumptions about people's ages, or other vital information based solely on the date census data were collected. I recall learning that for some US censuses, the census taker was supposed to ask the respondents to answer as if it was a particular date in the past, say Jan. 1. or Apr. 1. This leads to some quirky findings. For example, someone who had died after that date but before the date the census data were collected would be included in the census rolls, but an infant born between those two dates might not be included. I suppose that people might not have responded according to these instructions or the census-taker did not ask according to these instructions, leaving lots of room for error. I could not find the online source where I originally learned this, and it may or may not apply to the 1850 census. So, I am asking if anyone recalls seeing this info somewhere to confirm it. Sorry to be so vague about the source, but I know this has been discussed on other genealogy lists before. -Karen -----Original Message----- From: irish-new-york-city-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:irish-new-york-city-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Marge Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2007 1:11 PM To: IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY@rootsweb.com Subject: [IRISH-NYC] 1850 Census Thanks for the answer. The 1850 Census for the Crane family was taken August 13, 1850. Marge No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.10.0/887 - Release Date: 7/5/2007 1:55 PM ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I am responding because I want to caution you about making assumptions about people's ages, or other vital information based solely on the date census data were collected. I recall learning that for some US censuses, the census taker was supposed to ask the respondents to answer as if it was a particular date in the past, say Jan. 1. or Apr. 1. This leads to some quirky findings. For example, someone who had died after that date but before the date the census data were collected would be included in the census rolls, but an infant born between those two dates might not be included. I suppose that people might not have responded according to these instructions or the census-taker did not ask according to these instructions, leaving lots of room for error. I could not find the online source where I originally learned this, and it may or may not apply to the 1850 census. So, I am asking if anyone recalls seeing this info somewhere to confirm it. Sorry to be so vague about the source, but I know this has been discussed on other genealogy lists before. -Karen -----Original Message----- From: irish-new-york-city-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:irish-new-york-city-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Marge Sent: Wednesday, July 04, 2007 1:11 PM To: IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY@rootsweb.com Subject: [IRISH-NYC] 1850 Census Thanks for the answer. The 1850 Census for the Crane family was taken August 13, 1850. Marge No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.10.0/887 - Release Date: 7/5/2007 1:55 PM

Thanks for the answer. The 1850 Census for the Crane family was taken August 13, 1850. Marge

H List, Could anyone tell me when the 1850 census was taken. I have the T. Crane family that lived in Ward 7, district 2, they had a son Henry, 2 mnths old === would like to find the month he was born in. Thanking you in advance for yur help. Marge

I am looking for information on the following family. My line flows throughMary who married James O'Donnell. Her father John was a tinsmith. I amtrying to find just where and when the family came to NY and where they werefrom in Ireland. Any help would be appreciated. I have more information thatI will gladly share. Thank you! Kathleen****Please feel free to email me direct at kogrone@gmail.com 1870 Federal Census, Brooklyn, Ward 21Location 337 and 317Morris Harrigan 42 IR, (b. 1828) parents IR Printer Real Estate 6000,Personal Estate 2000Margaret 45 IR, parents IR (b. 1825)Mary A. 21 NY (all kids born in NY)Margaret A. 18James L. 16 SchoolLester A. 14 SchoolMorris W. 12 SchoolJosephine E. 10 SchoolJohn F. 7Albert C or G 3Morris 85 (father b. abt. 1775)Mary 63 (mother b. abt. 1807)David Roach?? Apprentice Printer, PA, parents PA and IR Descendants of Maurice Harrigan>> 1 Maurice (Morris) HARRIGAN b: Abt. 1830 in Ireland> .. +MARGARET b: Abt. 1835 in Ireland> ... 2 Mary A. HARRIGAN b: Abt. 1850> ... 2 Margaret A. HARRIGAN b: Abt. 1852> ... 2 James L. HARRIGAN b: 1854> ... 2 Lester A. HARRIGAN b: 1856> ... 2 John F. HARRIGAN b: September 1859 in New York> ....... +KATE b: 1859 in New York d: Bef. 1900 in New York>> ......... 3 Mary HARRIGAN b: June 1880 in Brooklyn, New York> d: January 28, 1914 in Brooklyn, New York> ............. +James Joseph O'DONNELL b: July 17, 1881 in New> York City, New York d: December 8, 1931 in Brooklyn, New York m: Abt.> 1900 in New York> ............... 4 Edwin O'DONNELL b: 1905 in New York d: in> New York> ................... +LOUISE> ............... 4 Lester Aloyisius O'DONNELL b: August 30, 1908> in Flatbush, Brooklyn, New York d: March 2, 1992 in Yonkers, New York> ................... +Isabell M. CREEN b: October 5, 1906 in> Brooklyn, New York d: October 1, 1938 in Queens County, New York m:> 1923 in Brooklyn, New York> ............... *2nd Wife of Lester Aloyisius O'Donnell:>> ................... +Dorothy Mary SCHULTZ b: May 3, 1918 in New> York City, New York d: January 20, 2006 in Yonkers, Winchester County,> New York m: March 18, 1940 in New York City, New York> ............... 4 James George O'DONNELL b: February 8, 1909 in> Brooklyn, New York d: February 1969 in Brooklyn, New York> ................... +Isabelle CADIGAN b: 1911 in New York d:> February 1989 in Brooklyn, New York> ............... 4 Leroy O'DONNELL b: January 23, 1914 in New> York d: Aft. 1984 in New York> ......... 3 James A. HARRIGAN b: July 1884> ......... 3 Joseph L. HARRIGAN b: May 1886> ......... 3 John J. HARRIGAN b: August 1888> ......... 3 William HARRIGAN b: September 1890> ......... 3 Anna F. HARRIGAN b: November 1892 in Brooklyn, New> York> ............. +John A. O'BRIAN b: 1884 in New York> ............... 4 John F. O'BRIAN b: 1912> ............... 4 Vincent O'BRIAN b: 1913> ... 2 Essie HARRIGAN b: 1860> ... 2 Maurice W. HARRIGAN b: 1860> ... 2 Josephine HARRIGAN b: 1862> ... 2 Thomas HARRIGAN b: 1864> ... 2 Albert C. HARRIGAN b: 1868>>-- ♥ "Lower your expectations of earth. This isn't heaven, so don't expect itto be." ~ Max Lucado♥"A successful marriage requires falling in love many times, always with thesame person."♥ - Mignon McLaughlin My Blog: http://theopenwindow1.blogspot.com/http://www.5minutesformom.com/faithlifts/marriageMy Photos: http://www.flickr.com/photos/mrsdarcy

Try MapQuest to get directions using those addresses. Researching Connors, OConnor, Histon, Kennealy, Sullivan in Limerick and OConnor, Heffernan, Foley, Palmer, deConde, Sugrue, Shackrow, Griffin, Shea, Shay and Keating in Kerry. Conor, OConnor Roscomon. ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.

Hi, I have a question about learning a little more about the history of 1st Avenue in Manhattan. My family lived at a number of locations along 1st Avenue between 1900 and 1940 and I am interested to learn was it changed since then or is it set up the same way today? I understand there was a lot of redevelopment in that area around that time, ie. turning tenements into proper apt buildings. Any information or resources you could point me to would be appreciated. Particular areas of interest are: 1089, 952, 1193 and 1010 1st Avenue Thanks, Erin --------------------------------- Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles. Visit the Yahoo! Auto Green Center.

Hi, I was wondering if anyone on the list is researching the names HART, LARKIN or PIERCE from Galway, Ireland. I am interested in a Kathleen Pierce Hart and Annie Pierce Larkin. Kathleen arrived in New York in 1921 aged 20 and Annie Arrived in 1923 age 23. I would be interested in hearing from anyone with a connection to the above. Many thanks Maureen www.horspathcricket.co.uk www.thequeensheadhorspath.co.uk www.hmsorion.co.uk www.sheppie.co.uk

Hi, thanks to all who replied, in particular Melanie Egan & Maureen Shepherd. Matt Falvey

I have been trying to unsubscribe from this list temporarily. For some unknown reason, I cannot. Anyone have any ideas except to send an email with unsubscribe in both the subject and body of the email? Thanks, Barbara ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.

To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ARDFERT37@aol.com wrote: >I have been trying to unsubscribe from this list temporarily. For some >unknown reason, I cannot. >Anyone have any ideas except to send an email with unsubscribe in both the >subject and body of the email? > >Thanks, >Barbara > > > >************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com. > >------------------------------- >To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > >

If you don't find the groom listed in Italiangen, double-check familysearch.org before ordering a certificate. I hadn't had much luck there before with NYC info but I decided to try again and I found all of the Mary Gleason marriage records for 1880-1885 listed there with the groom names. (Italiangen did not have the grooms listed). Unfortunately none of the marriage records listed in Italiangen/familysearch were for my great-grandmother. If I had checked Familysearch before ordering, I wouldn't have wasted the cost of a couple of records from NYC Vital Records. Familysearch doesn't have all or most of the NYC marriage records but in this case, it was very helpful. Melanie Egan Orlando FL - a new member of this mail list

People were often married at home or in the church rectory in those days. ----- Original Message ----- From: MARGARET SOWIZDRZAL To: IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2007 6:07 AM Subject: [IRISH-NYC] (no subject) Location of Catholic Church in Bklyn abt 1892. According to a Cert of Marriage my GrGrandparents were married by Lewis R Foote at 523 Willoughby Ave. Does anyone know if there was a Catholic Church located near there? Peggy545@msn.com<mailto:Peggy545@msn.com> ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Margaret, There are two good sites for Brooklyn. This one has links to lots of info: http://www.bklyn-genealogy-info.com/ And, on that site under Worship, this one has a listing of RC churches -- A chronological list of locations thru 1899 http://home.earthlink.net/~desmondcorp/tim/churches.htm Hope this helps, Maureen On 5/20/07, MARGARET SOWIZDRZAL <peggy545@msn.com> wrote: > Location of Catholic Church in Bklyn abt 1892. According to a Cert of Marriage my GrGrandparents were married by Lewis R Foote at 523 Willoughby Ave. Does anyone know if there was a Catholic Church located near there? > Peggy545@msn.com<mailto:Peggy545@msn.com> >

Location of Catholic Church in Bklyn abt 1892. According to a Cert of Marriage my GrGrandparents were married by Lewis R Foote at 523 Willoughby Ave. Does anyone know if there was a Catholic Church located near there? Peggy545@msn.com<mailto:Peggy545@msn.com>

Hi, This is my first email to your site. I made a match with the groom first then checked the bride list. Bingo I made a match. I sent for the certificate and found it was loaded with lots of info. My advice is if you don't find it at first keep checking back as they update it. That is what I did. Peggy @peggy545@msn.com

Frankly kids, the truth is that our Scots-Irish grandparents, great- GPs and GG-GPS had so little standing in society in the late 19th/ early 20th Centuries -- despite the fact they dug the Erie Canal, laid track for the NY Central, dug the NYC subway tunnels and worked the Manhattan/Brooklyn wharves -- that their deaths were no more noted by the Press of that time than their births or their marriages. The Brooklyn Eagle was perhaps the sole exception, but even then, the recently departed/born/married Irishman-Irishwoman had to have had some distinction to merit attention. Wasn't fair, but as Walter Cronkite used to say in his nightly sign-off, that's the way it was in 18998, 1899, 1900, etc. Here's to our NYC Scots-Irish forebears! George Alexander

I have had luck in the Brooklyn Eagle, The NY times, and bklyn-genealogy-info.com I think they also have a list of Irish Newspapers, but I don't know of any online... You may want to ask on the _nybrooklyn@rootsweb.com_ (mailto:nybrooklyn@rootsweb.com) those folks are a wealth of info and very helpful... Joyce In a message dated 5/17/2007 9:26:34 A.M. Pacific Daylight Time, marycolbert07@msn.com writes: Would the NY Irish put obituaries in the paper in the late 19th, early 20th century? So far I haven't had any luck finding them. What papers would they use? Thanks ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRISH-NEW-YORK-CITY-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message _http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/p/r/e/Joyce-Presnall/index.html_ (http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/users/p/r/e/Joyce-Presnall/index.html) Many Brooklyn and NY names ************************************** See what's free at http://www.aol.com.

Would the NY Irish put obituaries in the paper in the late 19th, early 20th century? So far I haven't had any luck finding them. What papers would they use? Thanks