Hi again, I did check the 1861, but I believe (I could be wrong) that all the John Carneys in England at that date would be too young, and most of them would be "son" rather than "head" Looks like Patrick was born when John was 18. Not unless Patrick is Mary's son from a previous relationships. I see that on the 1871 census she gives her birthdate as 1845, yet I noticed you gave her birth date as 1841. Could be just a transcription error, but it could also be Mary trying to make herself younger. Susan