Many thanks Susan, I actually already have Mary's maiden name. It is RILEY. So Bridget KELLY was a RILEY before her marriage. Bridget was a widow in 1871, yes. She must be the sister of Mary, as her relationship to John is sister in law. Though there again she could have been a KELLY who married a CARNEY brother of John's and reverted back to her maiden name when she was widowed. This latter scenario is less liely I think. So as I see it there are 2 avenues open for exploration: John and Mary's marriage c 1860 or so, or Patrick's birth c 1861. Given the use for family names it's quite likely presumably that Patrick would have been named after John or Mary's father, or grandfather.... from MaryPat's email the other day two of the possibilities for John and Mary were from the same place, making them very likely candidates as they didn't often marry outisde their immediate circle.. CARNY, Joannem Christening Gender: Male Christening Date: 29 May 1841 Recorded in: Killucan and ballinameen, Roscommon, Ireland Collection: Roman Catholic Father: Michaelis CARNY Mother: Annae BEIRNE Source: FHL Film 989741 Dates: 1833 - 1850 REILY, Mariam Christening Gender: Female Christening Date: 9 Mar 1842 Recorded in: Killucan and ballinameen, Roscommon, Ireland Collection: Roman Catholic Father: Joannis REILY Mother: Brigidae BERMINGHAM Source: FHL Film 989741 Dates: 1833 - 1850 All very interesting and tantalising!! Tim -----Original Message----- From: Walter Josephy [mailto:walterjosephy@shaw.ca] Sent: 10 May 2006 20:03 To: IRISH-IN-UK-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [UK-Irish] John Carney & Mary Riley Hello Tim, I sent an image of the 1871 English Census off list to you, but in the interests of everyone seeing it, I have transcribed it below: Andrew Carney 1863 Batley, Yorks John Carney 1843 Ireland Labourer Mary Carney 1845 Ireland Mary Carney 1870 Batley, Yorks Michael Carney 1867 Batley, Yorks Patrick Carney 1861 Ireland Bridget Kelly 1841 Sister in Law Ireland rag picker James Kelly 1861 Nephew Ireland. So, there you have it, they came to Yorkshire sometime between the birth of Patrick (1861) and the birth of Andrew (1863). I think a useful thing to do now would be to go onto FreeBMD and find the GRO reference for the birth of Andrew. Then order the cert from the GRO. That will give you Mary's maiden name. Plus, you now have the extra info of Bridget Kelly and James Kelly. I can't remember if Bridget is a widow or not, you can check when you get the image. She may be either a sister of John or of Mary or she may be the wife/widow of a brother of Mary. A bit more investigation will reveal which one. Of course, if you get Mary's maiden name, and you find it is Kelly, then it's a very good chance she was married to a brother of Mary. On the other hand, she may be Mary's sister, who had a child out of wedlock. Many possibilities. I am now going to try, on the off chance, for the same people on the 1861 census, in case Patrick was born earlier in the year in Ireland, and then they moved to England that same year. Susan Canada ==== IRISH-IN-UK Mailing List ==== The Irish-In-UK Mailing List Website: http://www.connorsgenealogy.com/IrishUK/ ============================== Census images 1901, 1891, 1881 and 1871, plus so much more. Ancestry.com's United Kingdom & Ireland Collection. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13968/rd.ashx ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email ______________________________________________________________________ The information and attachments (if any) in this email are confidential, may be legally privileged and are intended solely for the addressee(s). Access, copying or re-use of information within it by anyone else is unauthorised. If you are not the intended recipient you should not disclose, copy or use any part of it. Please notify the sender and delete all copies immediately. Faber Music Limited is not responsible for the completeness or accuracy of this communication as it has been transmitted over a public network. It is the recipient's responsibility to scan this email and any attachments for viruses. If in doubt please verify the authenticity of the sender. Any views or opinions presented are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Faber Music Limited or any of its holding or fellow subsidiary companies. ______________________________________________________________________ This email has been scanned by the MessageLabs Email Security System. For more information please visit http://www.messagelabs.com/email ______________________________________________________________________