THE BRITISH MUSEUM READING ROOM Under the hive-like domes the stooping haunted readers Go up and down the alleys, tap the cells of knowledge -- Honey and wax, the accumulation of years -- Some on commission, some for the love of learning, Some because they have nothing better to do Or because they hope these walls of books will deaden The drumming of the demon in their ears. Cranks, hacks, poverty-stricken scholars, In pince-nez, period hats or romantic beards And cherishing their hobby or their doom Some are too much alive and some are asleep Hanging like bats in a world of inverted values, Folded up in themselves in a world which is safe and silent: This is the British Museum Reading Room. Out on the steps in the sun the pigeons are courting, Puffing their ruffs and sweeping their tails or taking A sun-bath at their ease And under the totem poles - the ancient terror -- Between the enormous futed Ionic columns There seeps from heavily jowled or hawk-like foreign faces The gutteral sorrow of the refugees. -- Louis MacNeice (1907-1963) son of Anglican rector, teacher, staff writer for BBC 1941, wrote radio plays and poetry, translated Goethe and Aeschylus. On location for the BBC, he descended into a mineshaft, caught pneumonia, and died just before his collection, "The Burning Perch," was published.

NEVER GIVE ALL THE HEART Never give all the heart, for love Will hardly seem worth thinking of To passionate women if it seem Certain, and they never dream That it fades out from kiss to kiss; For everything that's lovely is But a brief, dreamy, kind delight. O never give the heart outright, For they, for all smooth lips can say, Have given their hearts up to the play. And who could play it well enough Is deaf and dumb and blind with love? He that made this knows all the cost, For he gave all his heart and lost. -- William Butler Yeats

Hi Lou.. There are a lot of groups out there that are only to willing to help.... this is a good one http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Y-IRL/ you will get everything that is Irish here, not just research into the past, but everything in general. Regards Frank

Hi - I have been researching my family tree and after months of nothing but English agricultural labourers etc., I find that my great great grandfather was born in Ireland, as was his mother-in-law. They are both listed on the 1881 and 1901 census, (the only ones I've checked so far, as they're free!) but no more details other than 'Ireland' for place of birth. Here are some details, in case it helps. Frederick R Clarke, b.c1852. In 1881, he is living at 66 Buchan Terrace, Brinton Road, Southampton with his wife Helen and baby daughter. Occupation: Engineer, Fitter & Turner. 1901, he is living at 17 Cranbury Place, Southampton with his wife, seven children, mother-in-law Eleanor McDonald (also born in Ireland in c1828), and two sisters-in-law. Occupation: Marine Engineer. How would one go about finding out when he came to the UK, or where exactly he was born in Ireland? Is there anything like FreeBMD for Ireland? I am a total novice when it comes to researching anything other than England, but I feel this is an avenue I have to find out more about :) Thanks in advance - Lou Watson

Hello Lou, I took a look at the 1871 census and searched for Frederic/k Clark/e but couldn't find anyone under those names in the right age range who was listed as being born in Ireland. That could be an indication that he did not come to England until after 1871. Have you gotten a copy of his marriage certificate? That won't give place of birth, either, but it's nice to have in any case, and you could get his father's name. I found them on FreeBMD, marrying in Southampton in the June quarter of 1880. But you probably know that already. Unfortunately there is no FreeBMD that I am aware of for Ireland. And without a county to narrow down, it would be hard to know where to start. I looked on Origins.net, which has Griffiths Valuation--a good substitute for the lack of Irish census records. Even though your Frederick would be too young to show up on the valuation (it lists the names of property occupiers between 1847 and 1864), I looked up Frederick Clarke, and every one that came up lived in Dublin. For argument's sake, say, if his father's name was Frederick, then Dublin could be a likely place to be from. If you get the marriage cert., then you would have his father's name. I am not that well versed in Irish genealogy; my relatives came from Northern Ireland and records are very sparse. From Ireland they went to Scotland and then on to America, so I am not much help. I am lucky that Scottish BMD records pointed me to the county in Ireland that they were from. Perhaps you can get more advice from others on the list shortly. Kathy Orlando, FL -----Original Message----- From: Lou Watson [mailto:lindsay.watson1@ntlworld.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2005 6:07 AM To: IRISH-IN-UK-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [UK-Irish] Starting out - need any advice possible!

SNIPPET: Per Edward LAXTON's spellbinding book, "The Famine Ships," (1997), in looking at the economics existing on many of the great estates in Ireland and the simple sums presented by their land agents to the owners of those estates, it cost a landlord half as much in one year to send his tenants abroad than it would cost to keep them at home. Strokestown, a tiny community in Co. Roscommon, is geographically close to the center of Ireland, and here a Famine Museum was recently opened by Mary ROBINSON, then President of Ireland, to mark the 150th anniversary of the year of 1845 when the Famine began. Strokestown Park House and the surrounding estate, which stretched for 9,000 acres, epitomized the problems Ireland faced as the Famine took hold of the country. The land at Strokestown was granted to the MAHON family around 1680 by the English KING CHARLES II, in return for their support during the Civil Wars. Fifty years later, Thomas MAHON, who had become a Member of Parliament, built the grand house in the Palladian style which can be traced back to the Romans. Even the stables where the museum was sited had vaulted ceilings and there was a galleried kitchen which allowed the lady of the house to remain aloft and watch her cooks and servants at work below. The estate passed down through generations of elder sons in the family, and In July, 1800, Maurice MAHON accepted a peerage to become the First Baron Hartland of Strokestown. But the last of the line, grandson of the original Lord MAHON, was declared insane, and when he died in 1845, without any children to follow him, the estate had suffered ten years of neglect. Ownership passed to a cousin, Major Denis MAHON, whose name became notorious two years later, at the height of the Famine. Major MAHON was not entirely an absentee landlord, but he spent much of his time in England. Land agents ran the Irish estate for a fee, and at the new owner's command, unfortunately coinciding with the first season's failure of the potato crop, they prepared a plan for evicting tenants. Three years of rent arrears totalled 13,000 pounds. Several hundred of Denis MAHON's tenants became emigrants. Willingly or unwillingly, they took their place in the Landlord Emigration sweeping through the grand estates of Ireland. Two of the ships which carried the majority of Major MAHON's former tenants to Canada were the infamous "coffin ships" the "Virginius" and the "Naomi," condemned by Dr. George DOUGLAS at Grosse Isle; there had been more than 200 deaths at sea with another 200 passengers critically sick with fever on arrival. The physical condition of the passengers prior to the voyage was held to be partly responsible for so many deaths. Whatever the reasons, not six months after they left Ireland, on November 2, 1847, Major MAHON was assassinated, shot in the chest as he drove his carriage home late in the afternoon to Strokestown Park House. He died instantly. He was not the first landlord to be murdered, but the controversy surrounding the estate clearings rumbled on for many months, with dozens of letters in Irish and English newspapers, and debates in the House of Commons and the House of Lords in London. Catholic priests and bishops were drawn into the row, which lasted until the last of the killers was hanged late in 1848. Whatever the rights and wrongs of 60-year-old Major MAHONo's conduct, his death ensured that there were suddenly more absentee landlords in Ireland who fled the country in fear of their lives. The politicians had a field day, Irish organizations agitated for a return to governing the country from Dublin instead of London, sided with the Roscommon peasantry who were accused of conspi! ring against their landlord. The "Freeman's Journal" stated that the people were said to be displeased at him for two reasons: "The first was his refusal to continue the conacre system, the second was his clearing away what he deemed to be the surplus population.... In every other relation of his life Major MAHON was, we believe, much respected." The poorest of those working on the land were squatters without any legal claim to the piece of ground they occupied. In a slightly better position were those working in the conacre system - although tenants were not granted any rights, under conacre they would benefit from tending a stretch of farmland without any lease for a year at a time, the landlord maintaining and preparing the soil for sowing and taking a rent after the crop was harvested. Popular among the peasantry, conacre was less so with the landlords who too often found the rents difficult to raise, and after the first season's calamity with the potato, often impossible to collect at all. Through the accumulation of poor rates paid by the landlords, it was hoped to support the really destitute population in the 130 workhouses originally planned in Ireland. In 1847, some of those had not opened, and some had not been built while others like that in Roscommon, faced bankruptcy. Denis MAHON sat on a Local Relief Committee and shortly before his death he argued publicly with the chairman, the local priest, Father Michael McDERMOTT, and the day before his death the priest attacked Major MAHON from the pulpit. Reports in the local "Longford Journal," in the week of the murder, and carried by "The Times" in London, stated that MAHON's attempts to alleviate the distress was equal to any gentleman in the country possessing a similar income, that, indeed, it could be said that he had none, having to live on other resources, as he had received little or no rent for the last 18 months. It was also said that he was an honorable gentleman who had spent 6,000 to 8,000 pounds to assist thankful, poor people out of Ireland, and as such he had been abused, being portrayed as a tyrant and oppressor of the poor. In April of the following year, the "Freeman's Journal" headlined: Extermination by Thousands! The Strokestown Massacure Developed." By now the news of the typhus and the horrors of Grosse Isle had reached Ireland, and the Bishop of Elpin wrote a report on the evictions at Strokestown, attacking Denis Mahon and holding him accountable for the deaths of 3,006 men, women, including 84 widows, and children. In many earlier exchange of letters between the local agent and Major MAHON, who was away for long periods to Manchester, a four-day journey from Roscommon, and London, which was probably a week away, the Major had written that he could not afford 5,000 pounds and urged the agent to find a cheaper passage out of Sligo or through the port of Liverpool. He argued that he had to borrow money to pay those tenants who wanted to travel independently a small remuneration for their livestock and crops, and he needed to borrow more to pay the fares of others plus the cost of extra food for the voyage - rice, salt, oatmeal and salted herrings - to provide one pound of food per day above the government ration. Nearly 1,000 emigrated on the "John Nunn" and the "Erin's Queen" as well as the filthy "coffin ships" the "Virginius" and "Naomi." A great many tragically failed to complete the journey and many more died soon after setting foot in Canada. They were dying in Roscommon, too, from typhus and dysentery and fever sheds had been raised on the estate in the village of Dysart. Many victims had received some compensation for giving up their land and were then found to be too ill to travel. Four days after his death, 288 acres of prime land and a lovely farmhouse were put up for auction, but the sale was cancelled when the highest bid was too low. Within a matter of weeks four more landlords in Ireland were shot and land agents and rate collectors were threatened and assaulted. Nearly a full year passed before two men, Patrick HASTY and James CUMMINS, were tried and publicly hanged for killing Major Denis MAHON.

Jean McCarthy has a good website and recently she started an index for all the Irish born listed in the 1851 UK census living in Liverpool at the time. If your family was passing through and/or stayed and might have been in Liverpool in 1851, at the height of The Famine years, this is an index worth watching. You can find it here: http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~jeanmccarthy36/index2.html -- Pat Connors, Sacramento CA http://www.connorsgenealogy.com

Has anyone check the Ulster Ancestry website? This providence includes the following counties: Donegal, Londonderry, Antrim, Down, Armagh, Tyrone, Monaghan, Fermanagh and Cavan. http://www.ulsterancestry.com/ua-free-pages.php It has many free databases including Passenger Lists, 1851 census data from Co Antrim, Gravestone inscriptions, Protestant and Catholic househlder, and much more. If you think one of your ancestors were from the Ulster providence, this site is worth exploring. -- Pat Connors, Sacramento CA http://www.connorsgenealogy.com

THE HOUSE WHERE I WAS BORN An elegant, shabby, white-washed house With a slate roof. Two rows Of tall sash windows. Below the porch at the foot of The steps, my father, posed In his pony trap and round clerical hat. This is all the photograph shows. No one is left alive to tell me In which of those rooms I was born, Or what my mother could see, looking out one April Morning, her agony done, Or if there were pigeons to answer my cooings From that tree to the left of the lawn. Elegant house, how well you speak For the one who fathered me there, With your sanguine face, your moody provincial charm And that Anglo-Irish air Of living beyond one's means to keep up An era beyond repair. Reticent house in the far Queen's County, How much you leave unsaid. Not a ghost of a hint appears at your placid windows That she, so youthfully wed, Who bore me, would move elsewhere very soon And in four years be dead. -- Cecil Day-Lewis, late Poet Laureate of England.

The Ireland GenWeb County Tipperary website has been updated. New town(land)s added or updated include Ardnagassan, Aughvallydeag, Ballyhane East & West, Blackstairs, Boolanunane, Brownbog, Cappagh, Clonmurragha, Cummer Beg & More, Curraheen, Druminda, Foilaclug, Gortaderry, Cappaghwhite Town, Cahernahallia, Gortmahonoge, Inchinsquillib, Inchivara, Kilbeg, Kilmore, Knockanavar, Knockane, Knockduff, Losset, Moanvaun, Moher East & West, Oldcastle, Parkroe, Piperhill, Reafadda, Thurles Town, Nenagh, Newport Town, Newtown, Clonmel Town, Carrick on Suir Town, Ballynacree, Tipperary Town, Reagoulane, Shanacloon, Toem, Tooreen, Ayle, Ballykeevin. New links, surnames, maps, Griffith's Valuations have been added plus a webpage for the Toem Civil Parish. I have also started to add to the homepage, the entire entry about County Tipperary in the 1837 Samuel Lewis' Topographical Dictionary of Ireland. It is quite lengthy and will take me some time to finish it but it is fascinating, descriptive and historical. You can find the website at: http://www.rootsweb.com/~irltip/tipperary.htm -- Pat Connors, Sacramento CA http://www.connorsgenealogy.com

IN SNOW O English mother, in the ruddy glow Hugging your baby closer when outside You see the silent, soft, and cruel snow Falling again, and think what ills betide Unshelter'd creatures, your sad thoughts may go Where War and Winter now, two spectre-wolves, Hunt in the freezing vapour that involves Those Asian peaks of ice and gulfs below. -- William ALLINGHAM. Born in the Mall at Ballyshannon (Donegal) where his father was a ship-owner and merchant. He was educated in Wray's School, Church Lane, Ballyshannon before going to boarding school in Killeshandra, County Cavan in 1837. Allingham left school at fourteen and began working in the local bank in Ballyshannon where his father was then manager. He later became a customs officer in which capacity he worked in various locations in Ireland and in England between 1846 and 1870 when he left the Customs service to write full-time. In 1850 his first volume *Poems* was published. Allingham published *Day and Night Songs.* He published *The Ballad Book* and an epic poem about landlords and tenants entitled *Laurence Bloomfield in Ireland* after which he was granted a Civil List pension. Allingham was editor of the influential *Frazer's Magazine* between 1874-1879. In 1888 he published *Flower Pieces and Other Poems*. Allingham died in London in 1889. His as! hes were returned to Ballyshannon where they rest in the Church of Ireland cemetery.

These valuations which are so important to Irish family research prompted me recently to find out more about the man Griffith and put some bone and skin to the individual. I am sure lots of people on the list know very little about him if anything at all. So I am going to share with you what I have I have discovered about the man who makes our family research of the 21st century possible even though his task was for the collection of tax. Well his name was Richard John Griffith (1784-1878). He was a geologist engineer valuator and surveyor. He was born and educated in Dublin. He used all the above talents. He worked as a construction and mining engineer around the province of Leinster. He completed a pioneering geological map of Ireland and acclaimed as the father of Irish Geology. He was also one of four Railway Commissioners of the than Irish rail network. He was much admired because of his ability to undertake many major projects at any one time. Under an act of the British parliament in 1846 he was responsible for the survey of Ireland which was undertaken by 150 surveyors. The aim of the exercise was to assess local taxes through a uniform system. Land was valued on its productive capacity and potential value of yearly agricultural produce based on land fertility and peculiar local circumstances. In 1865 the task was completed with the publication the Armagh valuations. He was regarded as one of the most talented Irishmen of the 19th Century in his time. The survey was still been used up to 1977 for the calculation of rates paid by owners of land valuation. So there we are.When we see the name Griffith we can see the man the human being instead of a technical term. Ciaran Colgan

So there we are.When we see the name Griffith we can see the man the human being instead of a technical term. Ciaran Colgan Well done Ciaran and THANK YOU .... Mary Pat

THE SMALL TOWNS OF IRELAND O my small town of Ireland, the raindrops caress you, The sun sparkles bright on your field and your Square As here on your bridge I salute you and bless you, Your murmuring waters and turf-scented air. - John BETJEMAN(pron. BET jeh man) was born in London in 1906 and one of England's best-selling poets. His poetry is neither light nor completely serious. His best-known poems poke gentle fun at English pecularities, as in "In Westminster Abbey" - "Think of what our Nation stands for, 'Books from Boots' and country lanes, Free speech, free passes, class distinction, Democracy and proper drains." Occasionally, when dealing with religion or the prospect of death, BETJEMAN shows himself more serious and compassionate. His collected poems were published in 1958. "Summoned By Bells" (1960)is his verse autobiography. An expert on architecture, he also wrote widely on that subject.

their were foys in longford ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jean R." <jeanrice@cet.com> To: <IRISH-IN-UK-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2005 11:27 PM Subject: Re: [UK-Irish] FOY-GORMAN > Margaret - Any idea of an Irish county? Did they meet in Ireland? Marry > there? Did they meet and marry in England? USA? > > Mid 1800s -- If you check at the Irish Times ireland.com website and click > on "ancestor" search, you will find a map and additional information on > where in Ireland the surnames FOY and GORMAN appeared either separately or > together in the same location. In the latter case, look for "enter the > second surname" field for GORMAN after initially bringing up information on > FOY. For what seems to be a small, one-time fee, you can inquire for more > specifics on parishes, etc., right at the website. It looked to me on the > map (although my monitor is getting pretty dark), that in the mid 1800s > those two surnames were found together in Cos. Galway, Kerry, Longford, > Kildare, Waterford and Armagh, but you can check and see if there were > others. . > > Per the Matheson survey of 1890 (distribution of surnames in Ireland > computed by five or more births), there were 38 FOY births, principally in > Cos. Mayo, Cavan and Dublin, with 14 in Ulster, 14 Connaught, 8 Leinster and > 2 Munster. GORMAN births numbered 140, principally in Cos. Antrim, Dublin, > Tipperary, but generally distributed in counties of Leinster and Munster - > 57 Leinster, 40 Munster, 33 Ulster, 10 Connaught. > > So, they were pretty much everywhere. And some related surnames included > FEE, etc. > > If any members of these families immigrated to the USA, you could check with > the county historical society in the USA county in which that family > resided. Likely, they can come up with some documents/Federal Census info. > to help you pin down the Irish county, last placed lived, when emigrated to > the USA, marriage applications (which sometimes gave name of parents of > bride and groom), cemetery records, newspapers announcements, etc., etc. > > Don't forget to contact your living relatives, to see what they know. I > found out a great deal from my cousins, aunts and uncles. > > Jean > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "margaret ward" <tootsfoyward@yahoo.com> > To: <IRISH-IN-UK-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2005 8:21 AM > Subject: [UK-Irish] FOY-GORMAN- > > > > Still searching for my ancestors. Would appreciate any information on > > Richard FOY [var.sp.] b IRELAND 1816 approx. and Margaret GORMAN > > b IRELAND 1811 approx. > > Regards with thanks. Margaret NJ USA tootsfoyward@yahoo.com > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== IRISH-IN-UK Mailing List ==== > > To unsub or change your subscription: > > http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/other/Ethnic-Irish/IRISH-IN-UK.html > > > > ============================== > > View and search Historical Newspapers. Read about your ancestors, find > > marriage announcements and more. Learn more: > > http://www.ancestry.com/s13969/rd.ashx > > > > > ==== IRISH-IN-UK Mailing List ==== > The Irish-In-UK Mailing List Website: > http://www.connorsgenealogy.com/IrishUK/ > > ============================== > Jumpstart your genealogy with OneWorldTree. Search not only for > ancestors, but entire generations. Learn more: > http://www.ancestry.com/s13972/rd.ashx > >

GONE! GONE! FOREVER GONE Gone, gone, forever gone Are the hopes I cherished, Changed like the sunny dawn, In sudden showers perished. Withered is the early flower, Like a bright lake broken, Faded like a happy hour, Or Love's secret spoken. Life! what a cheat art thou! On youthful fancy stealing, A prodigal in promise now; A miser in fulfilling! -- Dramatist, writer, poet Gerald GRIFFIN, Limerick-born son of a tradesman went to London in 1823, where much of his work was accomplished. Upon returning to Ireland in 1838 he divided his property up between his brothers, joined the Teaching Order of the Christian Brothers. His novels depict southern Irish life.

SNIPPET: Where religion and political allegiance divided many of their compatriots, Fred DALY and Harry BRADSHAW found a common bond in golf, right back to their start as caddies. Born in humble circumstances on either side of the border - Fred in Portrush, Co. Antrim in 1911, and Harry in the village of Killincarrig, Co. Wicklow in 1913, they went on to form one of the finest partnerships in the history of the game. The Ryder Cup gave them their greatest experience together, when they formed an unbeatable partnership in the matches at Wentworth in 1953, even though they had been keen rivals for a number of years prior to that, stretching back before WWII. In 1947, at the Royal Liverpool club, Hoylake, DALY achieved a distinction still unique in Irish golf, by becoming the only native of Ireland to capture the British Open crown. BRADFORD once commented, "Fred had nerves of steel when the crunch came and I could always manage to sink the odd putt." So it was that when his friend died in November 1990, Harry traveled north from his home in Raheny, Dublin, with fellow professional Paddy SKERRITT for DALY's funeral. Little more than a month later, The Brad himself was dead, and we could truly claim to have reached the end of an era. -- Excerpt, Dublin's "Ireland of the Welcomes" magazine.

SNIPPET: For your information, Paddy DEVLIN died at the age of 77 in 1986, leaving behind a typescript of nearly 170,000 words describing a career which began in a place called The Rock near Buncrana in Co. Donegal. He had a great memory and a good command of words to describe a life which saw the War of Independence and the Civil War, work as a servant boy for Ulster farmers, work as a laborer for British building firms, a spell in the British Army, another period doing all sorts of jobs and picking up enough educational certificates to "paper a bedroom." War brought his recall to the colors which took him to northern France in World War II and to the retreat from Dunkirk. After demobilization, work as a post office engineer, in trade unionism and as a small farmer brought him at last to retirement and the making of a record of his life. His niece Kathleen BARR edited the manuscript and saw to it that Paddy DEVLIN and the many men and women he represents were not, in t! heir turn, destined for oblivion. "That Was The Way Of It," by P. J. DEVLIN (ed. Kathleen BARR), published a handful of years ago by Mercier Press (ISBN 1-85635-354-0) paperback. Perhaps you can still locate a copy if the subject interests you.

Margaret - Any idea of an Irish county? Did they meet in Ireland? Marry there? Did they meet and marry in England? USA? Mid 1800s -- If you check at the Irish Times ireland.com website and click on "ancestor" search, you will find a map and additional information on where in Ireland the surnames FOY and GORMAN appeared either separately or together in the same location. In the latter case, look for "enter the second surname" field for GORMAN after initially bringing up information on FOY. For what seems to be a small, one-time fee, you can inquire for more specifics on parishes, etc., right at the website. It looked to me on the map (although my monitor is getting pretty dark), that in the mid 1800s those two surnames were found together in Cos. Galway, Kerry, Longford, Kildare, Waterford and Armagh, but you can check and see if there were others. . Per the Matheson survey of 1890 (distribution of surnames in Ireland computed by five or more births), there were 38 FOY births, principally in Cos. Mayo, Cavan and Dublin, with 14 in Ulster, 14 Connaught, 8 Leinster and 2 Munster. GORMAN births numbered 140, principally in Cos. Antrim, Dublin, Tipperary, but generally distributed in counties of Leinster and Munster - 57 Leinster, 40 Munster, 33 Ulster, 10 Connaught. So, they were pretty much everywhere. And some related surnames included FEE, etc. If any members of these families immigrated to the USA, you could check with the county historical society in the USA county in which that family resided. Likely, they can come up with some documents/Federal Census info. to help you pin down the Irish county, last placed lived, when emigrated to the USA, marriage applications (which sometimes gave name of parents of bride and groom), cemetery records, newspapers announcements, etc., etc. Don't forget to contact your living relatives, to see what they know. I found out a great deal from my cousins, aunts and uncles. Jean ----- Original Message ----- From: "margaret ward" <tootsfoyward@yahoo.com> To: <IRISH-IN-UK-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, November 15, 2005 8:21 AM Subject: [UK-Irish] FOY-GORMAN- > Still searching for my ancestors. Would appreciate any information on > Richard FOY [var.sp.] b IRELAND 1816 approx. and Margaret GORMAN > b IRELAND 1811 approx. > Regards with thanks. Margaret NJ USA tootsfoyward@yahoo.com > > > > > > ==== IRISH-IN-UK Mailing List ==== > To unsub or change your subscription: > http://lists.rootsweb.com/index/other/Ethnic-Irish/IRISH-IN-UK.html > > ============================== > View and search Historical Newspapers. Read about your ancestors, find > marriage announcements and more. Learn more: > http://www.ancestry.com/s13969/rd.ashx >

I have just found on the 1861 census for Perth Scotland a JOYCE connection to my other family names above. I know my MULHEARN and GIBBONS were from County Mayo. So I got the marriage certificate from Scotlandspeople as well, and it gives married 18 Dec 1859 at St Johns RC Church, Perth, Scotland, Edward JOYCE age 20, mason's labourer, father William JOYCE, labourer, deceased, mother Ann JOYCE nee JOYCE, to Catherine GIBBONS age 18, father Thomas GIBBONS, labourer, mother Cather FAGHY, (sic) witnesses John FAHY and Thomas Gibbons. (John FAHY was Catherine's GIBBONS uncle). No BMD or census of Edward JOYCE and his family in Scotland or England after 1863 birth of second child. Possible either went back to Ireland or emigrated somewhere else?? John FAHY's sister Bridget married Peter MULHEARN, both probably born County Mayo). Peter MULHEARN their son married Bridget MORAN 1861 Perth, Scotland Both born Co. mayo according to later census. These are my direct paternal lines. All these families above are living together at the same address in 1 Cutlog Vennel, Perth in 1861 plus a Patrick MORAN, age 36 wife Bridget, age 40, children, Mary John and Ann, all born Ireland. Slowly, very slowly piecing all these families together. Keeping on, and on, and on.......... Kathleen.