Re: Michael Hawley and Kate English of Aughavanlomaun, County Tipperary near Newcastle Dear Michael: A very interesting problem. Let me try to clear away what I can for awhile, then let's see what's left. You wrote: "King Ceallachan (Callahan) granted Doncuan mac Cinneidi permission to marry Bebhinn, daughter of the Viking chief who had been killed in battle. If this is true, then Donncuan's son Cinneidi could have been half Norwegian and therefore agreeable to including a Danish family within the O'Kennedy sept." The Viking families were not given false genealogies. Genealogy from the 7th until the 17th century was far more accurate than it is today. For example, the Ó Dubhghaill (O'Doyle) family are descendants of dubh-ghaill ('black foreigners', i.e., Danes). Sept is a Norman word which, when applied to Scotland, can mean a political confederation, not descent from a common ancestor. Recommend you call these Irish families clans, tribes, dynasties, or families, thereby emphasizing their blood relationship. There was nothing wrong with being Danish or Norse in an ethnic/racial sense. Their valor was respected even if they were often enemies. Noble Viking men married noble Irish women to cement alliances, to keep the peace, sometimes even for more personal reasons. Whatever the reason, when this occurred the children were raised by Irish mothers and so the Vikings became Irish-speaking within a generation or two, just like Cromwell's soldiers who settled in Ireland in the mid-17th century. Once they also went Irish in law (Brehon law), they were treated just like any other Irish tribe, people, dynasty under the law, while continuing to recognize their descent. Bébhinn is an Irish Gaelic name, not Scandinavian. It can be translated as "melodious woman." So Bébhinn's mother was Irish, so Donnchuan's son Cinnéide was at least 3/4 Irish, maybe more depending upon whether Bébhinn's grandmother was Irish. Either way, Viking blood would not influence a family in this period to falsify a genealogy. There was no need, and nobody would believe them anyway. Instead, if there were a political alliance, there was a political alliance, and it was left at that without mucking about with the genealogies. Woulfe was wonderful, but later scholars like MacLysaght have noted that he was prone to bad etymology or leaping to conclusions about etymology. Maybe Ailche does mean 'English' in Danish, but as you point out it's also an Irish name. And as far as I can tell looking at the Dictionary Of The Irish Language Based Mainly On Old And Middle Irish Materials (Royal Irish Academy, Dublin, 1990), the word Ailche seems to mean something like 'destructive,' not 'English.' And if Helgi means 'holy' in Norse, why would it mean English in Danish, which is also derived from Norse? Certainly the Danes didn't think the English were holy. Something seems to be fishy in Denmark, or at least in this etymology. If the name Hawley does indeed come from Ó hAilche (while noting that Woulfe does not list Hawley as one of the anglicizations of Ó hAilche, and Woulfe was the best at writing down the different anglicizations), then we have to look closely at the Irish genealogical sources related to Ó hAilche. The Ó Cinnéide are a branch of the Dál gCais. The fact that the territory of the Ó hAilche was in the territory of Éile Uí Chearbhaill (Éile of the Ó Cearbhall, or Ely O'Carroll in English) is not in doubt and pretty much rules out descent from the Dál gCais. This territory comprised parts of counties southern Offaly and northern Tipperary. As Ó hUidhrín's poem makes clear (with Ó hUidhrín writing ca. 1400 and describing what Ireland was like before the Normans came in 1169), Tuatha Faralt was one of the 8 lordships loyal to and falling within the territory of the Muintir Chearbhaill of Éile, as follows: Territory Clan Ceinél Farga Ó Flannagáin / O'Flanagan Clann Ruaine Mág Corcráin / Mac Corcoran Clann Ionmhainéin Ó hAodhagáin / O'Hagan Clann Maonaigh Ó Dubhlaighe / O'Dooley Clann Coinnleagáin Mac Giolla Phóil / Mac Gilfoyle Uí Dhéice Ó Bánáin / O'Bannon Críoch Ó gCairín Uí Mheachair / O'Meaghar Tuath Faralt Uí Ailche / Ó hAilche Most of these are well-known branches of the Cianachta, just like the Muintir Chearbhaill who are the Ó Cearbhaill kings of Éile (the Ó Cearbhall / Kjarval family you referenced earlier). This led James Carney to conclude that the Ó hAilche are also a branch of the Cianachta. (Topographical Poems, edited by James Carney, Dublin Institute For Advanced Studies, Index, note on Muintear Cearbhaill, pps. 136-137). I checked Dubhaltach Mac Fhirbhisigh's Book Of Genealogies plus Corpus Genealogiarum Hiberniae which includes the genealogies of the Book of Leinster, Book of Ballymote, Rawlinson B.502, and all the other great genealogical manuscripts. The Ó hAilche are not listed in any of these. I see no reason to dispute Carney, while recognizing that his conclusion is conjectural. It's the best guess possible based on the information at hand. However, there is absolutely no reason to conclude that the Ó hAilche are a branch of the Ó Cinnéide who belong to the Dál gCais. The Cianachta and the Dál gCais are 2 totally separate tribes. John O'Donovan, writing for the Ordnance Survey in Offaly (1837-1838) was able to identify the precise location of the first 7 of the lordships, but not the precise location of Tuath Faralt for which he notes "8. Tuath Faralt; the situation of this is as yet unknown to me." (See <http://offalyhistory.com/content/reading_resources/archaeology/ordnance_sur vey/ordnance_letters-pt54.htm> http://offalyhistory.com/content/reading_resources/archaeology/ordnance_surv ey/ordnance_letters-pt54.htm .) Hogan concludes that Tuath Faralt must be "in Ikerrin or near Templemore... it was in Éile" (Onomasticon Goedelicum, Edmund Hogan, Four Courts Press, Dublin, 1910, p. 651) just as your other source indicated. Aughavanlomaun, County Tipperary is in the barony of Iffa and Offa West in the south of Co. Tipperary. Your ancestor Michael Hawley came from north Tipperary in the territory of Éile Uí Chearbhaill. It's not at all impossible that his people moved south over the course of the 600+ years separating him from the Norman invasion, but it still presents a problem. Most Irish stayed in their ancestral territory until the growth of the cities in the 20th century. And then we come back to pronunciation. Would doesn't list Hawley as an anglicization of Ó hAilche, and there's no Irish dialect I'm aware of which would pronounce it as such. H-eye-lee. Hah-lee. Hale-lee. But not Hawley. Not the aw sound. So we come back to the problem mentioned earlier. What Irish name does Hawley come from? More to come. Best, - Jerry -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [ <mailto:[email protected]> mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Michael O'Hearn Sent: Saturday, January 13, 2007 6:46 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [IRISH-AMER] O'hAilche of Tipperary Following Rev. Woulfe, it is probably more likely that O'hAilche is Danish rather than Norse, so they are probably not descended from Helgi Magri (the Lean) afterall. The Danish stronghold was in Waterford and many were forced to leave after the Normans arrived from England in 1170, and the Power family took over. My ancestor Ellen Hally of Tipperary was married in Ireland to Michael Patrick Powers of County Waterford. I also have a Johanna Power married to Daniel Crowley of County Cork on the maternal side. Sister Maire de Poer of Ireland says that the Powers' although arriving with the Normans were actually originally from Britain and had come over with the Normans from Brittany in France, so they had no particular reason to treat the Vikings of Waterford with any special consideration. Woulfe suggests that the name Ailche is derived from the Danish word meaning 'English'. Alternatively, if it is derived from Helgi meaning 'holy', there was also Helgi the Bold in Denmark who had been involved in warfare and who according to tradition married Aslaug the daughter of Sigurd Snake-in-the-Eye, they being the father and mother of Raginhild who married Halfdan the Black and begot Harald Fairhair King of Norway. More likely though, Helgi of Waterford was just an ordinary Viking. As to the possibility of being connected with O'Kennedy of Ormond, it is stated toward the end of the 12th century work "War of Ceallachan of Cashel" that after fighting the Vikings of Dublin, King Ceallachan (Callahan) granted Doncuan mac Cinneidi permission to marry Bebhinn, daughter of the Viking chief who had been killed in battle. If this is true, then Donncuan's son Cinneidi could have been half Norwegian and therefore agreeable to including a Danish family within the O'Kennedy sept.

Michael, This section should read: "Aughavanlomaun, County Tipperary is in the barony of Iffa and Offa West in the south of Co. Tipperary. If Michael Hawley's ancestors originally came from north Tipperary in the territory of Éile Uí Chearbhaill, it's not impossible that his people moved south over the course of the 600+ years separating him from the Norman invasion, but it still presents a problem. Most Irish stayed in their ancestral territory until the growth of the cities in the 20th century. And then we come back to pronunciation. Woulfe doesn't list Hawley as an anglicization of Ó hAilche, and there's no Irish dialect I'm aware of which would pronounce it as such. H-eye-lee. Hah-lee. Hale-lee. But not Hawley. Not the aw sound ....." That should make some sense now. Best, - Jerry -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of [email protected] Sent: Monday, January 15, 2007 1:42 AM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [IRISH-AMER] O'hAilche of Tipperary / Hawley Re: Michael Hawley and Kate English of Aughavanlomaun, County Tipperary near Newcastle Dear Michael: ............... Aughavanlomaun, County Tipperary is in the barony of Iffa and Offa West in the south of Co. Tipperary. Your ancestor Michael Hawley came from north Tipperary in the territory of Éile Uí Chearbhaill. It's not at all impossible that his people moved south over the course of the 600+ years separating him from the Norman invasion, but it still presents a problem. Most Irish stayed in their ancestral territory until the growth of the cities in the 20th century. And then we come back to pronunciation. Would doesn't list Hawley as an anglicization of Ó hAilche, and there's no Irish dialect I'm aware of which would pronounce it as such. H-eye-lee. Hah-lee. Hale-lee. But not Hawley. Not the aw sound. So we come back to the problem mentioned earlier. What Irish name does Hawley come from? More to come. Best, - Jerry