Jerry, I have been particularly interested in this family name over the past several years mainly because I have been able to trace with reasonable accuracy all of my family's Irish ancestors to particular Irish septs and locations, including Cymro-Norman and Anglo Irish septs. There is a Danish website which also points out the fact that the person listed in the annals of Ulster as Tomar mac Ailche is in actuality a son of King Gorm the Old of Denmark giving as a reference the Annals of Ulster, and a note pertaining thereto (perhaps a gloss?) which I have been unable to locate, and I am not exactly sure what there proof is, since I do not understand Danish and their translation into English is not very good. In any case, Gorm or his son Harald Bluetooth left standing stones of commeration in Denmark which is about all of the certain evidence we have about Gorm and Thyra his wife. On one stone it memorializes Gorm, or perhaps Thyra, as "tamar" which apparently means a savior, achiever, or deliverer of Denmark. This is suprisingly similar to the name of Ailche's son Tomar. As noted earlier, Gorm was called "the Englishman" probably because he was born in England, which may be the ephithet which then becomes Ailche in Irish following Woulfe's conjecture. The 12th century Eoghanacht manuscript "CAITHREIM CEALLACHAIN CAlSIL" is today recognized as primarily propagandistic with some historical overtones. To the extent that it is historical, it probably derives from information passed down within the Eoghanachta families of O'Callahan and McCarthy, just as the first Danish historians Adam of Breman and Saxo Grammaticus got most of their information from the royal archives of the time. The chronologies in both the Eoghanachta document and Saxo's histories seem to be unrealistic. In CAITHREIM for example there is mention of Turgesius the Viking warlord and Sitric his son as being killed in battle, and Donncuan marrying Turgesius' daughter. In actuality, the Vikings Turgesius and Sitric lived a century earlier than Ceallachan and Donncuan. There maybe coins of the period bearing Sitric's name which could just as easily commemorate a leader of a century before. One explanation could be that instead of marrying Turgesius's daughter, Donncuan actually married a daughter of Cnut the son of Gorm who according to Saxo was a Viking who died in Ireland. Tomar mac Ailche identified as a son of Gorm was taken prisoner in Dublin after Olaf of Dublin defeated and captured the Limerick leader on Lough Rea in 937 AD. This was well within the time frame of Donncuan who, according to the Annals, along with his brother Eachtighearn (epononymous ancestor of my family's sept of O'Hearn, Ahern, etc.) were slain by Congalach in 948 AD while engaged in warfare under Ceallachan who according to Keating had been at war previously against the Vikings. I do agree that Bebhinn the woman who married Donncuan in CAITHREIM was probably at least half Irish on the maternal side, but the only Viking leader that I can find who died within that time frame is Cnut son of Gorm of Denmark, so perhaps O'Hart had this in mind when he says in a footnote that O'hAilche is a branch of the O'Kennedy sept and is of Donncuan's lineage. The possibility that I have in mind is that Cnut had at least one son, brother of Bebhinn, who may have been adopted by Donncuan after Cnut's death and later becoming chief of the O'hAilche sept as a branch of the O'Kennedy's. It is also possible, of course, that Tomar mac Ailche had children, and when surnames became widspread, that they too would also have been within the O'hAilche sept. There is no evidence that Harold Bluetooth was ever actually in Ireland so he is out of the picture. As far as location, O'Hart disagrees with the view that the O'Kennedys resettled into Ormond from Clare or Limerick in the 14th century when their faction of the O'Brien's was defeated in the Wars of Turlough, believing instead that they were there all along. At that time or after the Dal Cais victory at Clontarf in 1014, the O'hAilche sept with the backing of the O'Kennedys could have settled in their territory in north Tipperary which could have been included as part of Ormond at that time, or at least within the O'Kennedy sway of influence. I have discovered in my notes on hard disk that the reference to Keating regarding O'Hally from O'Halchi or O'hAlchi, who was chief of Tuathal Fearalt, is from my correspondence to Dan Hawley who says that Keating knew the Hallys as some lived on Keating's family's lands in southern Tipperary, and may have thought that the obscure Tuathal Fearalt of O'Heerin's poem was actually there in the locale of Newcastle rather than in and around Templemore and northwestern Kilkenny. The best. Michael O'Hearn ____________________________________________________________________________________ Don't get soaked. Take a quick peak at the forecast with the Yahoo! Search weather shortcut. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/shortcuts/#loc_weather

Thanks, Michael. Good stuff. I'm about to show you the proof I mentioned that the Ó hAilche mentioned by Ó hUidhrín in the territory of the Éile in what's now north Tipperary are of straight Gaelic descent. (Whether or not they're your Ó hAilche in the south of Tipperary is another matter.) But first we have to have context. Each hereditary seanchadh (historian/lawyer/genealogist) went to school for at least 12-14 years after the equivalent of a good high school education in order to make themselves eligible to practice their profession. Doctors today don't go to school that long in order to simply basically qualify. Seanchas is translated now as 'traditional lore', but until the 17th century, it was the indivisible combination of Irish Gaelic law/history/genealogy administered by scores of hereditary families, all made rich by the value of their knowledge. If the seanchadh lied, obfuscated, or was simply wrong in reporting seanchas, he/she lost his/her honor-price, i.e., his/her status in society. In other words, they and their descendants were drummed out of the service and reduced to poverty forever. In other words, the penalty for making a mistake, even giving the wrong impression, was huge and everlasting. Before the period in question, i.e., before the taking of surnames, as late as the 7th century, Irish tribes were sometimes given false "official" genealogies by stronger allies in order to cement alliance. But the social institution of Irish seanchas (backed universally in the Gaelic world by Brehon Law and the hereditary clans in the service of Seanchas with their colleges, professors, professionals, and libraries) was so strong that we think we can identify most if not all of the false genealogies granted in Gaelic Ireland before the fall of the Western Roman Empire. We can even find or reasonably reconstruct the original, correct genealogies! To understate the case, the institution of Seanchas didn't like people messing around with Mother Seanchas. No matter what the reason. Tens of thousands or even hundreds of thousands of trained Seanchas professionals in every generation wouldn't let this kind of messing around go on, at least not without comment. As a case in point, the Fir Teathbha were given a false genealogy by my ancestors the Uí Néill around the 6-7th centuries, making them descend from Maine son of Niall instead of Maine of the Laighin. Once surnames were taken (say 10-11th centuries), one of the great families of the Fir Teathbha were the Ó Dálaigh, who themselves became a hereditary literary family from whom some of our list members descend. Over a thousand years after the granting of the false genealogy, writing in the mid 17th century, the last great seanchadh of the Uí Fhiachrach, Dubhaltach Mac Fhirbhisigh, still wouldn't let the Ó Dálaigh "official" genealogy pass without comment, noting their original descent from the tribute-paying "Fir Bolg" as he put it, rather than from the Uí Néill. The Ó Dálaigh were stuck with the genealogy accepted by their ancestors. They had to defend it or die trying. But Ó hUidhrín had absolutely no vested interest in the genealogy or ethnicity of the Ó hAilche. It was no skin off Ó hUidhrín's nose either way, unless he screwed up when referencing them. So here, in the case of the Ó hAilche, we have a family who held one of the 8 lordships of Éile of the Cianachta. Not obscure at all - Lords with a capital L. Surrounded by hereditary genealogists on every side who would lose their honor-price, their status in Irish society, their ability to hold a job, the livelihood of their children and their descendants, if they fibbed or obfuscated or were, dare I say it, even just innocently WRONG about a genealogy. If the Ó hAilche were of Viking descent, somebody would have known, somebody would have said something, somebody would have sung like a canary. Is it possible that the Ó hAilche are oddly enough of Viking descent in what otherwise appears to be a perfectly normal Cianachta context? Is it possible that the required comment upon their lineage was lost in the ravages of the 17th century, when Irish manuscripts were burned by the ton and shipped to England by the fleet-load in order to be torn apart and recycled as book-binding? Sure, it's possible, but it didn't happen. Instead, in Ó hUidhrín's poem, we're looking at an original piece of Seanchas. Further, let's remember that Ó hUidhrín's continuation of Ó Dubhagáin's poem describes Ireland before the upheaval of the Norman invasion and it's supposed to be about "síl Ghaoidhil ghlóirmheadhraigh" (the 'seed of merry-voiced Gaodheal') as Ó Dubhagáin puts it on page 1. In other words, it's supposed to be about those who believed themselves descended from our eponymous ancestor Gaedheal, however merry-voiced he might have been. It's not supposed to be about Viking descendants, no matter how upstanding or completely Gaelicized they might have been. For example, not even the famous Ó Dubhghaill (O'Doyle) are mentioned despite how much land and power they held by the Norman invasion. That's because they're simply not Gaeil. Although fully Gaelic in language, law, custom, dress, mindset by the time of the Norman invasion, and powerful and rich in treasure and territory, the Ó Dubhghaill were originally Vikings, and of course in a society with hundreds of thousands of seanchadh running around, everybody knew it. So the Ó Dubhghaill and all the other good, upstanding, fully-Gaelicized Viking families aren't in the poem or its continuation by Ó hUidhrín because they didn't qualify based on the poem's single criterion: 'the seed of merry-voiced Gaedheal." I just checked the poem's index just to be sure that Ó hUidhrín continued on with Ó Dubhagáin's original intent. Sure enough, every single family mentioned is a family of Gaelic lords. No Vikings. Ó hUidhrín and his audience understood this poem to be solely about the Gaeil. Would Ó hUidhrín have known the ancestry of the Ó hAilche? Of course. It was the job of every seanchadh to know by memory the genealogy of every Gaelic saor ('free', i.e., noble) family. And if they weren't Gaeil, he would have known that too because that was also every seanchadh's job. Would Ó hUidhrín have included the Ó hAilche in his continuation of Ó Dubhagáin's poem if they weren't Gaeil? No way. Would he have permitted a mis-interpretation? No way. Would Ó hUidhrín have included the Ó hAilche if he weren't sure they were Gaeil? No way. Would Ó hUidhrín have included the Ó hAilche if there were any possibility whatsoever that he might be wrong about their Gaelic descent, thereby getting himself and his descendants disgraced, dispossessed, drummed out of his hereditary profession? Absolutely no way. Therefore, here's the case crack: a) there's no doubt that the Ó hAilche mentioned in Ó hUidhrín's poem are of straight Gaedheal descent, b) they weren't hugely powerful but they were definitely saor ('free', i.e, noble) like all descendants of Gaedheal in the official genealogies, c) given the context of the poem (not the context of the geography, but the context of the poem and the placement of the Ó hUidhrín reference amongst the descendants of Tadhg son of Cian), they're probably Cianachta otherwise Ó hUidhrín probably would have said something about that so as not to give a mis-impression related to their descent, d) the Norman upheaval probably dispossessed them like so many other Irish families even greater than they (such as the Ó Gormáin / Mac Gormáin), and e) the original lordship of Tuath Faralt (the precise geographical location of which even O'Donovan couldn't find) is probably now buried under an Anglo-Norman place-name. So I come back to my original point - we can't speculate. There are too many possibilities. Instead, we have to look to Seanchas for the answers, and the Seanchas clearly demonstrates that it was Ó hUidhrín's intent to tell us that the Ó hAilche in the territory of the Éile in what's now north Tipperary are of straight Gaelic descent. But, as I say, whether or not they're your Ó hAilche in the south of Tipperary is another matter. Hope that's helpful. Best, - Jerry -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Michael O'Hearn Sent: Friday, January 19, 2007 9:45 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [IRISH-AMER] O'hAilche / O'Hally Jerry, I have been particularly interested in this family name over the past several years mainly because I have been able to trace with reasonable accuracy all of my family's Irish ancestors to particular Irish septs and locations, including Cymro-Norman and Anglo Irish septs. There is a Danish website which also points out the fact that the person listed in the annals of Ulster as Tomar mac Ailche is in actuality a son of King Gorm the Old of Denmark giving as a reference the Annals of Ulster, and a note pertaining thereto (perhaps a gloss?) which I have been unable to locate, and I am not exactly sure what there proof is, since I do not understand Danish and their translation into English is not very good. In any case, Gorm or his son Harald Bluetooth left standing stones of commeration in Denmark which is about all of the certain evidence we have about Gorm and Thyra his wife. On one stone it memorializes Gorm, or perhaps Thyra, as "tamar" which apparently means a savior, achiever, or deliverer of Denmark. This is suprisingly similar to the name of Ailche's son Tomar. As noted earlier, Gorm was called "the Englishman" probably because he was born in England, which may be the ephithet which then becomes Ailche in Irish following Woulfe's conjecture. The 12th century Eoghanacht manuscript "CAITHREIM CEALLACHAIN CAlSIL" is today recognized as primarily propagandistic with some historical overtones. To the extent that it is historical, it probably derives from information passed down within the Eoghanachta families of O'Callahan and McCarthy, just as the first Danish historians Adam of Breman and Saxo Grammaticus got most of their information from the royal archives of the time. The chronologies in both the Eoghanachta document and Saxo's histories seem to be unrealistic. In CAITHREIM for example there is mention of Turgesius the Viking warlord and Sitric his son as being killed in battle, and Donncuan marrying Turgesius' daughter. In actuality, the Vikings Turgesius and Sitric lived a century earlier than Ceallachan and Donncuan. There maybe coins of the period bearing Sitric's name which could just as easily commemorate a leader of a century before. One explanation could be that instead of marrying Turgesius's daughter, Donncuan actually married a daughter of Cnut the son of Gorm who according to Saxo was a Viking who died in Ireland. Tomar mac Ailche identified as a son of Gorm was taken prisoner in Dublin after Olaf of Dublin defeated and captured the Limerick leader on Lough Rea in 937 AD. This was well within the time frame of Donncuan who, according to the Annals, along with his brother Eachtighearn (epononymous ancestor of my family's sept of O'Hearn, Ahern, etc.) were slain by Congalach in 948 AD while engaged in warfare under Ceallachan who according to Keating had been at war previously against the Vikings. I do agree that Bebhinn the woman who married Donncuan in CAITHREIM was probably at least half Irish on the maternal side, but the only Viking leader that I can find who died within that time frame is Cnut son of Gorm of Denmark, so perhaps O'Hart had this in mind when he says in a footnote that O'hAilche is a branch of the O'Kennedy sept and is of Donncuan's lineage. The possibility that I have in mind is that Cnut had at least one son, brother of Bebhinn, who may have been adopted by Donncuan after Cnut's death and later becoming chief of the O'hAilche sept as a branch of the O'Kennedy's. It is also possible, of course, that Tomar mac Ailche had children, and when surnames became widspread, that they too would also have been within the O'hAilche sept. There is no evidence that Harold Bluetooth was ever actually in Ireland so he is out of the picture. As far as location, O'Hart disagrees with the view that the O'Kennedys resettled into Ormond from Clare or Limerick in the 14th century when their faction of the O'Brien's was defeated in the Wars of Turlough, believing instead that they were there all along. At that time or after the Dal Cais victory at Clontarf in 1014, the O'hAilche sept with the backing of the O'Kennedys could have settled in their territory in north Tipperary which could have been included as part of Ormond at that time, or at least within the O'Kennedy sway of influence. I have discovered in my notes on hard disk that the reference to Keating regarding O'Hally from O'Halchi or O'hAlchi, who was chief of Tuathal Fearalt, is from my correspondence to Dan Hawley who says that Keating knew the Hallys as some lived on Keating's family's lands in southern Tipperary, and may have thought that the obscure Tuathal Fearalt of O'Heerin's poem was actually there in the locale of Newcastle rather than in and around Templemore and northwestern Kilkenny. The best. Michael O'Hearn ____________________________________________________________________________ ________ Don't get soaked. Take a quick peak at the forecast with the Yahoo! 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