Jerry, Thank you again for the scholarly additions. Where to begin? First, my fourth cousin Sandra Hawley traveled to Newcastle, County Tipperary, Ireland several years ago and obtained information from the baptismal certificates including baptismal sponsors for all of the thirteen children of Michael Hally and Kate English, all of them Hallys including many of the sponsors. As far as I or anyone knows, the name only became Hawley after most of the family, except Patrick Hally who stayed behind, immigrated to America (one son died in transport and another died shortly after arrival). As far as I know, the name Hawley was adopted only after arrival as an anglicized, Americanized version of Hally. I have an Irish ancestral map printed in Michigan which probably follows Hogan's and Carney's suggestions because it lists the name as Holy located in NW Kilkenny around the town of Urlingford which would have been Osraigh territory, although they are listed as Ciannacht, perhaps through a confusion between the earlier Osraigh Cearbhall and the later Eile Cearbhall ancestor of O'Carrolls, unless Eile O'Carroll did in fact extend to that part of Kilkenny at that time which would imply that they were Ciannacht. One son of Michael and Kate in Meridian, Michigan used the name Holly, and that seems to be the preferred pronunciation in America. So based on the location in Tipperary, we are probably talking about O'hAilche insofar as Mulhall of Waterford as Hally would be the exception which proves the rule. Just because the name is Hawley in America by one family does not, in my humble opinion, make all of the Hallys of Aughavanlomaun Mulhalls. O'Hart places Tuath Ferault in Tipperary in the vicinity of Templemore I believe, and extending into Kilkenny in the vicinity of Urlingford. By suggesting that they were a branch of the O'Kennedy's, he seems to me to imply that this territory was part of Ormond. Woulfe likewise places them in and around Templemore, and later appearing as merhants in Cashel and in Kilmallock, County Limerick. This would also tend to suggest that they were of Viking origin, as some Vikings could have become "middle men" after the Viking defeat at clontarf in 1013 AD. As noted previously, the name Ailche, of old memory in Eire, was used as a synonym or substitute for the Norse name Helgi. As previously noted, there was a gentleman named Helgi at that time who was half Norwegian and half Irish being the son of Eivind Austmann of Norway and Rafertach daughter of Kjarval identified with King Cearbhall of Ossory, as I have discovered in a note to a recent addition of Saxo's History of Denmark. (Sorry, I don't have the name of the original saga manuscript but it may be listed in the note.) This would tend to support the view of an Ossory origin of Hally as a Viking or half Viking family. Parenthetically, Hawley is in some cases etymologically of Norse origin which may have influenced the choice of the Americanized version Hawley of the Hally family in America. I referred to the 12th century manuscript "Wars of Ceallachan of Cashel" to provide one explanation of how O'hAilche, if in fact of Danish origin as suggested by Rev. Woulfe, could have been associated with the O'Kennedy sept as stated in O'Hart's Irish Pedigrees where he also says that they were hereditary physicians. I agree that membership in a sept does not necessarily imply paternal descent. However, it does indicate close family bonds, and this is what I take O'Hart to mean when he says that O'hAilche was a branch of the O'Kennedys of Ormond, as I also agree with Woulfe that they were originally Danish Vikings, not to suggest that this was an attempt to falsify a pedigree. Rather, because I believe that they were ordinary Vikings of Waterford or south Tipperary, there is no record of their actual ancestry and probably was none then either. I do agree with you insofar as I do not believe they were transposed from North Tipperary or County Kilkenny to the Newcastle area, also in agreement with Dan Hawley of Newcastle in this respect, who incidentally does believe that all of the Hallys in that area including himself although using a different spelling are O'hAilche. Michael O'Hearn ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss an email again! Yahoo! Toolbar alerts you the instant new Mail arrives. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/toolbar/features/mail/

Thanks, Michael. Happy to see that the Mulhall option has been eliminated. Plenty of options still remaining, though. Too many, and all based on mere supposition. We have to take into account that Ireland was hugely literate at this time (unlike the rest of Europe), with scores of clans making a living keeping records for all the lordships. Vikings amongst the Gaeil were noted in the genealogies, especially if they attained a lordship like Tuath Faralt. That would have been commented upon. Therefore, Woulfe's guess is less likely than Hart's. Hart's guess is less likely than Hogan's. Hogan's at least has the context of Ó hUidhrín's poem in which all the other families of Éile are Cianachta, with Ó hUidhrín making reference in that section to their descent from Cian. But who knows without documentation? It would be good to have Dan Hawley's Céitinn reference to get to the bottom of it. Two other important things to note: a) - the Irish sept is definitely supposed to indicate paternal descent, unlike the Scottish sept which I understand can indicate mere political alliance; b) - the territory of Osraighe and the territory of Éile are known. No need for supposition. Sometimes ancient placenames were replaced and eventually lost, but the loss of a 12th century placename in Ireland is extremely rare. Usually the old placename remained known even if the new placename was always used. Best, - Jerry -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Michael O'Hearn Sent: Monday, January 15, 2007 8:01 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [IRISH-AMER] O'hAilche of Tipperary / Hawley Jerry, Thank you again for the scholarly additions. Where to begin? First, my fourth cousin Sandra Hawley traveled to Newcastle, County Tipperary, Ireland several years ago and obtained information from the baptismal certificates including baptismal sponsors for all of the thirteen children of Michael Hally and Kate English, all of them Hallys including many of the sponsors. As far as I or anyone knows, the name only became Hawley after most of the family, except Patrick Hally who stayed behind, immigrated to America (one son died in transport and another died shortly after arrival). As far as I know, the name Hawley was adopted only after arrival as an anglicized, Americanized version of Hally. I have an Irish ancestral map printed in Michigan which probably follows Hogan's and Carney's suggestions because it lists the name as Holy located in NW Kilkenny around the town of Urlingford which would have been Osraigh territory, although they are listed as Ciannacht, perhaps through a confusion between the earlier Osraigh Cearbhall and the later Eile Cearbhall ancestor of O'Carrolls, unless Eile O'Carroll did in fact extend to that part of Kilkenny at that time which would imply that they were Ciannacht. One son of Michael and Kate in Meridian, Michigan used the name Holly, and that seems to be the preferred pronunciation in America. So based on the location in Tipperary, we are probably talking about O'hAilche insofar as Mulhall of Waterford as Hally would be the exception which proves the rule. Just because the name is Hawley in America by one family does not, in my humble opinion, make all of the Hallys of Aughavanlomaun Mulhalls. O'Hart places Tuath Ferault in Tipperary in the vicinity of Templemore I believe, and extending into Kilkenny in the vicinity of Urlingford. By suggesting that they were a branch of the O'Kennedy's, he seems to me to imply that this territory was part of Ormond. Woulfe likewise places them in and around Templemore, and later appearing as merhants in Cashel and in Kilmallock, County Limerick. This would also tend to suggest that they were of Viking origin, as some Vikings could have become "middle men" after the Viking defeat at clontarf in 1013 AD. As noted previously, the name Ailche, of old memory in Eire, was used as a synonym or substitute for the Norse name Helgi. As previously noted, there was a gentleman named Helgi at that time who was half Norwegian and half Irish being the son of Eivind Austmann of Norway and Rafertach daughter of Kjarval identified with King Cearbhall of Ossory, as I have discovered in a note to a recent addition of Saxo's History of Denmark. (Sorry, I don't have the name of the original saga manuscript but it may be listed in the note.) This would tend to support the view of an Ossory origin of Hally as a Viking or half Viking family. Parenthetically, Hawley is in some cases etymologically of Norse origin which may have influenced the choice of the Americanized version Hawley of the Hally family in America. I referred to the 12th century manuscript "Wars of Ceallachan of Cashel" to provide one explanation of how O'hAilche, if in fact of Danish origin as suggested by Rev. Woulfe, could have been associated with the O'Kennedy sept as stated in O'Hart's Irish Pedigrees where he also says that they were hereditary physicians. I agree that membership in a sept does not necessarily imply paternal descent. However, it does indicate close family bonds, and this is what I take O'Hart to mean when he says that O'hAilche was a branch of the O'Kennedys of Ormond, as I also agree with Woulfe that they were originally Danish Vikings, not to suggest that this was an attempt to falsify a pedigree. Rather, because I believe that they were ordinary Vikings of Waterford or south Tipperary, there is no record of their actual ancestry and probably was none then either. I do agree with you insofar as I do not believe they were transposed from North Tipperary or County Kilkenny to the Newcastle area, also in agreement with Dan Hawley of Newcastle in this respect, who incidentally does believe that all of the Hallys in that area including himself although using a different spelling are O'hAilche. Michael O'Hearn ____________________________________________________________________________ ________ Never miss an email again! Yahoo! 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