This makes so much more sense! I guess it's like, what is an American??? well ... we are people born in America, but with ethnic backgrounds from all over. still, weren't the migrations so long ago, that the different ethnic mixes by now have blended into ... an Irishman? with his/her own unique genetic makeup? America has only been America for 221 years. I appreciate very much the information, and especially about the Gaels and Celts. We have the same in America in the American Indian tribes, different tribes but in the same linguistic group. Now ... about the Fir Bolgs ... are they historical, or are they mythological? I thought they were mythological. But .. if your wife is a Fir Bolg ... she's gotta be real! So I would like to learn about Fir Bolgs. Just the name, is intriguiging. Thanks! Phyllis >Hi Phyllis, > >We have a couple of families, like your Doyles who are Scandinavian/Viking >in origin. We also have a number of families who are Normans, who in turn >were originally Danes. But most Irish families are Irish, not Viking nor >Norman. > >Remember that the Irish aren't a race, but a nation made up of a number of >different migrations. We had (and still have) tribes of tall pale blonds >(Leinster), short freckled red-heads, middle height and tall sandy >blond/brunettes (Connacht), short stocky barrel-chested dark-complexioned >brunettes (west Cork), tall big-boned Fir Bolg with jet black hair (Kerry), >just to name a few. In addition to the Irish who have been in Ireland since >(or before) the last ice age, we had identifiable immigrations by Celtic >tribes like the Brigantes (the Gorman family is part of this tribe), the >Menapii (the Monaghans seem to descend from these), the Belgii (Fir Bolg in >Irish, including my wife), etc. Then we had later >migrations/invasions/settlements by Vikings (your Doyles) and Normans >(Burkes, Fitzgeralds, Butlers, etc.), all of whom eventually became >Irish-speaking. So eventually, all these people became Celts, which is a >linguistic group (i.e., Celtic-speaking), not a racial/genetic group. > >I would suggest that today an Irishman/Irishwoman is a person born in >Ireland who wants to be called an Irishman/Irishwoman. (Some people in the >north don't want to be called Irish.) In contrast, a Gael in the Irish >language is a Gaelic speaker, no matter where born. A Gael can be of any >ethnicity and of any citizenship. I'm a Gael even though I was born and >raised in America. I have friends who are Gaeil who have never been to >Ireland. > >Hope that's helpful. > >Le gach dea-ghuí / Best, - Jerry > >

Phyllis, Fir Bolg is the name of an historical people in Ireland and means "men of Bolg", which in the Celtic language probably means people of brightness, although other interpretations have been suggested. Their name may derive from what the Belgae in Europe, a Celtic people in Ceasar's time. Also, the Baltic people may take their name from a common derivitive probably referring to brightness, and another Celtic derivative in Ireland being Falgi from which the name Offaly derives as the place where they lived in Ireland. Our English word "refulgent" comes from the same derivative meaning brightness. Historically, we don't know whether modern day Celts share any common inherited genetic traits with the Celts of long ago in central Europe. Another possibility is that Celtic Indo-European culture spread mainly through assimilation across western Europe. One theory is that the Celts of Leinster called the Laigin and their relatives in Britain and Brittany spread from southeastern Gaul around Lyon, whereas the Gaelic Celts who arrived later came from Aquitaine in southwestern Gaul or possibly Switzerland and came to Ireland about the time of Caesar. The Belgae or Fir Bolg people were of the Erainn and most likely arrived at an earlier period perhaps in several waves from Britain. In Europe of Caesar's time the Belgae of northwestern Gaul were believed to be mainly Germanic although preserving their Celtic name and customs, just as many of the people of Belgium today are Flemish and speak a variation of Frankish which is of course Germanic and not Celtic. Michael O'Hearn ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never Miss an Email Stay connected with Yahoo! Mail on your mobile. Get started! http://mobile.yahoo.com/services?promote=mail

Here is an excellent site that show Ireland settlements by dates and maps. Goes from BC to 1840s. http://www.rootsweb.com/~irlkik/ihm/iremaps.htm -- Pat Connors, Sacramento CA http://www.connorsgenealogy.com

Hi Phyllis, Ireland was tribal until the 17th century. Government, land, rights, privileges - all based on your tribe. So you didn't usually move away from your tribe. You couldn't easily exist without your tribe. Sometimes whole Irish tribes or clans moved, like the famous migration of the Cianachta to the north of Tír Eoghain or the displacement of several Irish clans/tribes when the Normans came in. But individuals didn't usually move off by themselves. This was considered remarkable. When the Irish left their tribes as missionaries to Europe in the Dark Ages, the Irish called it "White Martyrdom." So Irish tribes, like any other tribes, have territories. And until the growth of Irish cities in the last century or so, most Irish still lived in their tribal territory. It's pretty much accepted now that the Irish Fir Bolg are a branch of the Belgii, the Celtic tribe who gave their name to Belgium and who settled in parts of Britain as commented on by Caesar. There's some good linguistic evidence, and I'm looking forward to the day that genetic evidence will be published. But for now, if you put a Kerryman next to a Belge, you can't tell them apart except one of them talks funny. Linguists tell us that the name Belgii / Bolgii means 'Descendants of (the god) Bolg." Belg / Bolg seems to means something like 'Thunder' or 'Lightning' - something big thunder-goddish like that. So that makes the name Belgii / Bolgii mean 'Descendants of (the god) Thunder/Lightning." A good name for a warrior tribe. In our oldest (pagan) genealogies, it's indisputable that Bolg is an individual identified as a Sidh. In other words, a god. But only a couple of hundred years later in our Christian Irish tradition, Fir Bolg is claimed to mean "Men of Bags" and our Christian Irish tradition tells a ridiculous story about how they got their name as slaves digging dirt and putting it into bags in Greece. So what happened? Well, Irish myth was mostly recorded by Christian monks. And Christian monks didn't want to record propaganda for the old, pagan faith, so they changed some names and told some tall tales in order to either erase or denigrate the old religion. "Descendants of Thunder" became slaves putting dirt in bags. Talk about propaganda. Until the 17th century, certain clans had the hereditary right to engage in Seanchas as a profession. Seanchas until the 17th century was the Irish field of study which combined what we would now call law, history, and genealogy. In the Gaelic mindset, in the Gaelic worldview, those are all one thing, totally indivisible. You can't isolate an individual from his/her law, history, and genealogy. They don't exist apart. Part of the same mindset of tribes moving together, rather than as individuals. So, after the equivalent of a good high school education, an individual belonging to one of these clans would go to his/her clan's secular school of Seanchas (what we would call a college) for 12-14 years in order to memorize all of the law/history/genealogy of the Gaeil and thereby become a Seanchadh (legal expert / historian / genealogist). That was just to qualify at the basic level. To become famous or more marketable, he/she would then go on to further study at other clans' schools. It was the Seanchadh's obligation to know and be able to recite, at the drop of a hat, from memory, the full genealogy back to Adam (in the Christian period) of every single Saor family of Ireland. Saor means 'free', not tribute-paying. And it was their obligation to refuse to recite and refuse to record the genealogy of every single Daor ('unfree', tribute-paying) family of Ireland. In other words, they had to know every Irish family's genealogical background. Period. No exaggeration. No kidding around. Otherwise, they were thrown out of the union. Our Seanchas tradition doesn't identify historic families of Tuatha Dé Danann (Peoples of the Goddess Danu). Why not? Because they're mythological. In the Book of the Invasions, they become the Sidh and go into the sidh-mounds. Our Seanchas tradition doesn't identify historic families of Fomhóraigh (called Fomorians in English). Why not? Because they're mythological. Demons with one hand and one leg and one eye, sometimes growing out of their backs. But our Seanchas does identify historic families of Fir Bolg. No big deal. They're real, just like the Laighin, the Connachta, the Eoghanacht, etc.. We know who they are. We know where they live. They're all over the place. We run into them every day. We can have them over to watch the Superbowl. Bring the chips. No big deal. In the late 19th century, we had a bunch of romantics who claimed that all Irish mythology was true. In the late 20th century, we had a bunch of idiots who claimed that no Irish history was true. Truth, as always, lies somewhere in the middle. Hope that's helpful. Le gach dea-ghuí / Best, - Jerry -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] [mailto:[email protected]] On Behalf Of Phyllis Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2007 9:42 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [IRISH-AMER] So What Is An Irishman, Anyway? This makes so much more sense! I guess it's like, what is an American??? well ... we are people born in America, but with ethnic backgrounds from all over. still, weren't the migrations so long ago, that the different ethnic mixes by now have blended into ... an Irishman? with his/her own unique genetic makeup? America has only been America for 221 years. I appreciate very much the information, and especially about the Gaels and Celts. We have the same in America in the American Indian tribes, different tribes but in the same linguistic group. Now ... about the Fir Bolgs ... are they historical, or are they mythological? I thought they were mythological. But .. if your wife is a Fir Bolg ... she's gotta be real! So I would like to learn about Fir Bolgs. Just the name, is intriguiging. Thanks! Phyllis >Hi Phyllis, > >We have a couple of families, like your Doyles who are >Scandinavian/Viking in origin. We also have a number of families who >are Normans, who in turn were originally Danes. But most Irish >families are Irish, not Viking nor Norman. > >Remember that the Irish aren't a race, but a nation made up of a number >of different migrations. We had (and still have) tribes of tall pale >blonds (Leinster), short freckled red-heads, middle height and tall >sandy blond/brunettes (Connacht), short stocky barrel-chested >dark-complexioned brunettes (west Cork), tall big-boned Fir Bolg with >jet black hair (Kerry), just to name a few. In addition to the Irish >who have been in Ireland since (or before) the last ice age, we had >identifiable immigrations by Celtic tribes like the Brigantes (the >Gorman family is part of this tribe), the Menapii (the Monaghans seem >to descend from these), the Belgii (Fir Bolg in Irish, including my >wife), etc. Then we had later migrations/invasions/settlements by >Vikings (your Doyles) and Normans (Burkes, Fitzgeralds, Butlers, etc.), >all of whom eventually became Irish-speaking. So eventually, all these >people became Celts, which is a linguistic group (i.e., Celtic-speaking), not a racial/genetic group. > >I would suggest that today an Irishman/Irishwoman is a person born in >Ireland who wants to be called an Irishman/Irishwoman. (Some people in the >north don't want to be called Irish.) In contrast, a Gael in the Irish >language is a Gaelic speaker, no matter where born. A Gael can be of >any ethnicity and of any citizenship. I'm a Gael even though I was born and >raised in America. I have friends who are Gaeil who have never been to >Ireland. > >Hope that's helpful. > >Le gach dea-ghuí / Best, - Jerry > > ====Irish American Mailing List===== Add/check your surname to the Irish-American mailing list Surname Registry at: http://www.connorsgenealogy.com/IrishAmerican/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to [email protected] with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message