A chairde, I'd like to follow up on Ivan's good point. In a subsistence agrarian society, when only 20% of the land is left in the hands of the native population, then the other 80% are going to starve to death. It's not like they can use their weekly paycheck to pick up what they need at the local supermarket. Before gas chambers and machine guns, people still knew how to wipe out nations. The technique was well-developed and well-understood long before Europe's religious wars. As a man of his time, Cromwell knew of entire countries, like Germany, which had been left a wasteland. Germany took a century to re-populate. This kind of information wasn't a secret, especially for a 'military genius' like Cromwell. Nor was it a secret how Mountjoy succeeded in finally crushing the Great Rising of 1595-1603. Essex had tried to fight warriors instead of Irish women and children. His failure in Ireland disgraced him, distanced him from Elizabeth, and contributed to his beheading. In contrast, Mountjoy made war on the civilian population by driving all off the land, keeping them off the land, destroying their crops and food stores, starving them to death, and forcing their surrender clan by clan. Cromwell didn't have to go back more than 40 years for a blueprint on how to win in Ireland. The Cromwellian Wars came to Ireland in 1641 and, for Ireland, lasted 12 years (until the surrender of Galway) plus about another 8 years if you count continued slave-raiding and extermination of rapparees. Best estimates of Ireland's population in 1641 range around 1.4 million. Best estimates for 1649 range around 0.4 million. At which point Cromwell showed up to finish us off. Cromwell's own staff estimated that they shipped over 100,000 of us off to slavery in one year alone, 1650 if memory serves. How many others were killed in the fighting and related famine during 1649 to 1652? Estimates range as high as 250,000, but let's go with a more conservative figure of 50,000. If 400K were left in 1649, from which at least 100K were sold into slavery and another 50K killed off in 3 years of war and related famine (which seems too low a figure to me but let's go with it anyway), then that leaves approximately 250K left in Ireland in 1652. In other words, using even this conservative figure, we descend from no more than 18% of the Irish who were alive in 1641. Just because modern technology wasn't used doesn't mean that doesn't constitute genocide. If you've ever wondered why John O'Donovan wrote so often in his Ordnance Survey that he wasn't able to find any trace of so many Irish families listed, territory by territory, in Dubhaltach Mac Fhirbhisigh's great mid-17th century genealogical work Leabhar Genealach ('Book of Genealogies'), now you know why. Some people seem to want photographic evidence of Cromwell shooting somebody, or maybe a taped confession. The lack of such anachronisms doesn't change the facts or warrant a whitewashing of his policies in Ireland.. Mar achoimre, mo mhallacht ar Chromail. Go dtuga Dia cothrom na Féinne dó in Ifrinn. / To sum up, my curse on Cromwell. May God give him Justice in Hell. Le gach dea-ghuí / Best, - Jerry -------------- Original message from "Ivan Lennon" <ilennon@rochester.rr.com>: -------------- > Far from attempting to minimize Cromwellian brutality... but... not all > indigeneous > R.C. people were banished "to hell or Connaught". It was the Irish > "aristocracy" or leaders who were banished - many leaving their followers > behind if > they lacked the means to follow > > Nonetheless, by 1665 only 20% of land remained in R.C. hands w/ less than > 5% in > "planted" Ulster > > slan agus beannacht > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Monday, September 29, 2008 6:06 PM > Subject: Re: [IRISH-AMER] Cromwell > > > >I spend a great deql of time in the far out reaches of the Conamara > >Gaeltacht. > > Just lsten and look at these broken people-the descendants of a great > > people-they will tell you their individual clan and family stories as > > maintained in > > their oral/sean nos tradition- most came from Meath and the Midlands-they > > are > > living proof of to hell or to Connacht and live on in a barren rugged > > landscape in spite of England's determination to kill their race off... > > To hell with your book and God Bleess Ireland-Up the Republic- > > > > The Dream lives on! > > Ta ar teanga fein beo fos!!!! Brian De Vale > > > > > > > > **************Looking for simple solutions to your real-life financial > > challenges? Check out WalletPop for the latest news and information, tips > > and > > calculators. (http://www.walletpop.com/?NCID=emlcntuswall00000001) > > > > ====Irish American Mailing List===== > > Add/check your surname to the Irish-American mailing list Surname Registry > > at: http://www.connorsgenealogy.com/IrishAmerican/ > > > > ------------------------------- > > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > > IRISH-AMERICAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > ====Irish American Mailing List===== > Add/check your surname to the Irish-American mailing list Surname Registry at: > http://www.connorsgenealogy.com/IrishAmerican/ > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > IRISH-AMERICAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Query: Re 100,000 "to slavery in one year alone" Not to mitigate the disaster but Sean O'Callaghan states (TO HELL OR BARBADOS: THE ETHNIC CLEANSING OF IRELAND) a figure of 50,000 men, women and children to Barbados and Virginia, 1652 -1659. As to whether indentured servitude constitutes slavery is a matter for debate. Admittedly, Ireland to the Act of Union is not my area of interest/knowledge and I will stand corrected ----- Original Message ----- From: <jerrykelly@att.net> To: <irish-american@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 10:38 AM Subject: Re: [IRISH-AMER] Low-Tech Genocide >A chairde, > > I'd like to follow up on Ivan's good point. In a subsistence agrarian > society, when only 20% of the land is left in the hands of the native > population, then the other 80% are going to starve to death. It's not > like they can use their weekly paycheck to pick up what they need at the > local supermarket. Before gas chambers and machine guns, people still > knew how to wipe out nations. The technique was well-developed and > well-understood long before Europe's religious wars. As a man of his > time, Cromwell knew of entire countries, like Germany, which had been left > a wasteland. Germany took a century to re-populate. This kind of > information wasn't a secret, especially for a 'military genius' like > Cromwell. > > Nor was it a secret how Mountjoy succeeded in finally crushing the Great > Rising of 1595-1603. Essex had tried to fight warriors instead of Irish > women and children. His failure in Ireland disgraced him, distanced him > from Elizabeth, and contributed to his beheading. In contrast, Mountjoy > made war on the civilian population by driving all off the land, keeping > them off the land, destroying their crops and food stores, starving them > to death, and forcing their surrender clan by clan. Cromwell didn't have > to go back more than 40 years for a blueprint on how to win in Ireland. > > The Cromwellian Wars came to Ireland in 1641 and, for Ireland, lasted 12 > years (until the surrender of Galway) plus about another 8 years if you > count continued slave-raiding and extermination of rapparees. Best > estimates of Ireland's population in 1641 range around 1.4 million. Best > estimates for 1649 range around 0.4 million. At which point Cromwell > showed up to finish us off. > > Cromwell's own staff estimated that they shipped over 100,000 of us off to > slavery in one year alone, 1650 if memory serves. How many others were > killed in the fighting and related famine during 1649 to 1652? Estimates > range as high as 250,000, but let's go with a more conservative figure of > 50,000. If 400K were left in 1649, from which at least 100K were sold > into slavery and another 50K killed off in 3 years of war and related > famine (which seems too low a figure to me but let's go with it anyway), > then that leaves approximately 250K left in Ireland in 1652. > > In other words, using even this conservative figure, we descend from no > more than 18% of the Irish who were alive in 1641. Just because modern > technology wasn't used doesn't mean that doesn't constitute genocide. > > If you've ever wondered why John O'Donovan wrote so often in his Ordnance > Survey that he wasn't able to find any trace of so many Irish families > listed, territory by territory, in Dubhaltach Mac Fhirbhisigh's great > mid-17th century genealogical work Leabhar Genealach ('Book of > Genealogies'), now you know why. > > Some people seem to want photographic evidence of Cromwell shooting > somebody, or maybe a taped confession. The lack of such anachronisms > doesn't change the facts or warrant a whitewashing of his policies in > Ireland.. > > Mar achoimre, mo mhallacht ar Chromail. Go dtuga Dia cothrom na Féinne dó > in Ifrinn. / To sum up, my curse on Cromwell. May God give him Justice > in Hell. > > Le gach dea-ghuí / Best, - Jerry > > > -------------- Original message from "Ivan Lennon" > <ilennon@rochester.rr.com>: -------------- > > >> Far from attempting to minimize Cromwellian brutality... but... not all >> indigeneous >> R.C. people were banished "to hell or Connaught". It was the Irish >> "aristocracy" or leaders who were banished - many leaving their followers >> behind if >> they lacked the means to follow >> >> Nonetheless, by 1665 only 20% of land remained in R.C. hands w/ less than >> 5% in >> "planted" Ulster >> >> slan agus beannacht >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: >> To: >> Sent: Monday, September 29, 2008 6:06 PM >> Subject: Re: [IRISH-AMER] Cromwell >> >> >> >I spend a great deql of time in the far out reaches of the Conamara >> >Gaeltacht. >> > Just lsten and look at these broken people-the descendants of a great >> > people-they will tell you their individual clan and family stories as >> > maintained in >> > their oral/sean nos tradition- most came from Meath and the >> > Midlands-they >> > are >> > living proof of to hell or to Connacht and live on in a barren rugged >> > landscape in spite of England's determination to kill their race off... >> > To hell with your book and God Bleess Ireland-Up the Republic- >> > >> > The Dream lives on! >> > Ta ar teanga fein beo fos!!!! Brian De Vale >> > >> > >> > >> > **************Looking for simple solutions to your real-life financial >> > challenges? Check out WalletPop for the latest news and information, >> > tips >> > and >> > calculators. (http://www.walletpop.com/?NCID=emlcntuswall00000001) >> > >> > ====Irish American Mailing List===== >> > Add/check your surname to the Irish-American mailing list Surname >> > Registry >> > at: http://www.connorsgenealogy.com/IrishAmerican/ >> > >> > ------------------------------- >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > IRISH-AMERICAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ====Irish American Mailing List===== >> Add/check your surname to the Irish-American mailing list Surname >> Registry at: >> http://www.connorsgenealogy.com/IrishAmerican/ >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> IRISH-AMERICAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > ====Irish American Mailing List===== > Add/check your surname to the Irish-American mailing list Surname Registry > at: http://www.connorsgenealogy.com/IrishAmerican/ > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > IRISH-AMERICAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message
Hi Ivan, Thank you. If memory serves, it was Cromwell's surgeon who wrote proudly about enslaving and shipping 100,000 in one year alone. I'm surprised Seán O'Callaghan used a lower number. No idea where he got it. Check the State Papers For Ireland for great detail on this period from the English point of view. Also, we're talking slavery here. Not indentured servitude. Cromwell wasn't trying to give these people a break with free passage to the Colonies. These people were sold into 'perpetual slavery' with the full expectation that they would be ground to death as slaves in short order. I remember reading somewhere a recent calculation that average life expectancy for a slave on the sugar plantations was not more than 2-4 years. But given that average life expectancy in the Virginia colony for 'yeomen' and 'gentlemen' until the 1624 takeover by the crown was something like 12-18 months, 2-4 years for slaves only 25-30 years later seems a bit high to me. Anyway, after Cromwell died, some colonies in North America (and remember these were all separate entities) passed laws to reduce the number of years to be served by the survivors. But even after passage of laws like this, owners who had paid for perpetuity didn't just jump up and let everybody go. Given that the Irish were Irish-speaking, despised, regarded as enemy aliens (which certainly they were), and under threat of death from their owners, there wasn't much these slaves could do. If they got uppity, they might wind up like Anne Glover. Like 99% of her countrymen, that particular slave (some says she was taken at Drogheda) could say the Lord's Prayer in Irish and in Latin, but not in English. Which was proof enough for the Puritans - they hung her as a witch in Boston. And that hysteria helped bring on the Salem Witch Trials about 2 years later - some of the girls had read Cotton Mather's lurid bestseller on the case. Also interesting to note that the Irish slave-trade was a Puritan monopoly. Because they were in charge, they were able to cut their Royalist/Anglican enemies out of the profits. After the Restoration, slave-raiding in Ireland by Bristol merchants continued into the 18th century. Why go all the way to Africa when you can get what you want locally? Le gach dea-ghuí / Best, - Jerry -----Original Message----- From: irish-american-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:irish-american-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Ivan Lennon Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 6:37 PM To: irish-american@rootsweb.com Subject: [IRISH-AMER] Irish in Cromwellian " Slavery" Query: Re 100,000 "to slavery in one year alone" Not to mitigate the disaster but Sean O'Callaghan states (TO HELL OR BARBADOS: THE ETHNIC CLEANSING OF IRELAND) a figure of 50,000 men, women and children to Barbados and Virginia, 1652 -1659. As to whether indentured servitude constitutes slavery is a matter for debate. Admittedly, Ireland to the Act of Union is not my area of interest/knowledge and I will stand corrected ----- Original Message ----- From: <jerrykelly@att.net> To: <irish-american@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, October 01, 2008 10:38 AM Subject: Re: [IRISH-AMER] Low-Tech Genocide >A chairde, > > I'd like to follow up on Ivan's good point. In a subsistence agrarian > society, when only 20% of the land is left in the hands of the native > population, then the other 80% are going to starve to death. It's not > like they can use their weekly paycheck to pick up what they need at the > local supermarket. Before gas chambers and machine guns, people still > knew how to wipe out nations. The technique was well-developed and > well-understood long before Europe's religious wars. As a man of his > time, Cromwell knew of entire countries, like Germany, which had been left > a wasteland. Germany took a century to re-populate. This kind of > information wasn't a secret, especially for a 'military genius' like > Cromwell. > > Nor was it a secret how Mountjoy succeeded in finally crushing the Great > Rising of 1595-1603. Essex had tried to fight warriors instead of Irish > women and children. His failure in Ireland disgraced him, distanced him > from Elizabeth, and contributed to his beheading. In contrast, Mountjoy > made war on the civilian population by driving all off the land, keeping > them off the land, destroying their crops and food stores, starving them > to death, and forcing their surrender clan by clan. Cromwell didn't have > to go back more than 40 years for a blueprint on how to win in Ireland. > > The Cromwellian Wars came to Ireland in 1641 and, for Ireland, lasted 12 > years (until the surrender of Galway) plus about another 8 years if you > count continued slave-raiding and extermination of rapparees. Best > estimates of Ireland's population in 1641 range around 1.4 million. Best > estimates for 1649 range around 0.4 million. At which point Cromwell > showed up to finish us off. > > Cromwell's own staff estimated that they shipped over 100,000 of us off to > slavery in one year alone, 1650 if memory serves. How many others were > killed in the fighting and related famine during 1649 to 1652? Estimates > range as high as 250,000, but let's go with a more conservative figure of > 50,000. If 400K were left in 1649, from which at least 100K were sold > into slavery and another 50K killed off in 3 years of war and related > famine (which seems too low a figure to me but let's go with it anyway), > then that leaves approximately 250K left in Ireland in 1652. > > In other words, using even this conservative figure, we descend from no > more than 18% of the Irish who were alive in 1641. Just because modern > technology wasn't used doesn't mean that doesn't constitute genocide. > > If you've ever wondered why John O'Donovan wrote so often in his Ordnance > Survey that he wasn't able to find any trace of so many Irish families > listed, territory by territory, in Dubhaltach Mac Fhirbhisigh's great > mid-17th century genealogical work Leabhar Genealach ('Book of > Genealogies'), now you know why. > > Some people seem to want photographic evidence of Cromwell shooting > somebody, or maybe a taped confession. The lack of such anachronisms > doesn't change the facts or warrant a whitewashing of his policies in > Ireland.. > > Mar achoimre, mo mhallacht ar Chromail. Go dtuga Dia cothrom na Féinne dó > in Ifrinn. / To sum up, my curse on Cromwell. May God give him Justice > in Hell. > > Le gach dea-ghuí / Best, - Jerry > > > -------------- Original message from "Ivan Lennon" > <ilennon@rochester.rr.com>: -------------- > > >> Far from attempting to minimize Cromwellian brutality... but... not all >> indigeneous >> R.C. people were banished "to hell or Connaught". It was the Irish >> "aristocracy" or leaders who were banished - many leaving their followers >> behind if >> they lacked the means to follow >> >> Nonetheless, by 1665 only 20% of land remained in R.C. hands w/ less than >> 5% in >> "planted" Ulster >> >> slan agus beannacht >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: >> To: >> Sent: Monday, September 29, 2008 6:06 PM >> Subject: Re: [IRISH-AMER] Cromwell >> >> >> >I spend a great deql of time in the far out reaches of the Conamara >> >Gaeltacht. >> > Just lsten and look at these broken people-the descendants of a great >> > people-they will tell you their individual clan and family stories as >> > maintained in >> > their oral/sean nos tradition- most came from Meath and the >> > Midlands-they >> > are >> > living proof of to hell or to Connacht and live on in a barren rugged >> > landscape in spite of England's determination to kill their race off... >> > To hell with your book and God Bleess Ireland-Up the Republic- >> > >> > The Dream lives on! >> > Ta ar teanga fein beo fos!!!! Brian De Vale >> > >> > >> > >> > **************Looking for simple solutions to your real-life financial >> > challenges? Check out WalletPop for the latest news and information, >> > tips >> > and >> > calculators. (http://www.walletpop.com/?NCID=emlcntuswall00000001) >> > >> > ====Irish American Mailing List===== >> > Add/check your surname to the Irish-American mailing list Surname >> > Registry >> > at: http://www.connorsgenealogy.com/IrishAmerican/ >> > >> > ------------------------------- >> > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> > IRISH-AMERICAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message >> >> >> ====Irish American Mailing List===== >> Add/check your surname to the Irish-American mailing list Surname >> Registry at: >> http://www.connorsgenealogy.com/IrishAmerican/ >> >> ------------------------------- >> To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to >> IRISH-AMERICAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without >> the >> quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > ====Irish American Mailing List===== > Add/check your surname to the Irish-American mailing list Surname Registry > at: http://www.connorsgenealogy.com/IrishAmerican/ > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > IRISH-AMERICAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ====Irish American Mailing List===== Add/check your surname to the Irish-American mailing list Surname Registry at: http://www.connorsgenealogy.com/IrishAmerican/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRISH-AMERICAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message