This  is why I am proud to have studied under Gearoid O'Ceallaigh at An Scoil Gaeilge Gearoid Toibin!!! Taimid beo fis a chairde!!! -----Original Message----- From: jerrykelly@att.net To: irish-american@rootsweb.com Sent: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 10:38 am Subject: Re: [IRISH-AMER] Low-Tech Genocide A chairde, I'd like to follow up on Ivan's good point. In a subsistence agrarian society, hen only 20% of the land is left in the hands of the native population, then he other 80% are going to starve to death. It's not like they can use their eekly paycheck to pick up what they need at the local supermarket. Before gas hambers and machine guns, people still knew how to wipe out nations. The echnique was well-developed and well-understood long before Europe's religious ars. As a man of his time, Cromwell knew of entire countries, like Germany, hich had been left a wasteland. Germany took a century to re-populate. This ind of information wasn't a secret, especially for a 'military genius' like romwell. Nor was it a secret how Mountjoy succeeded in finally crushing the Great Rising f 1595-1603. Essex had tried to fight warriors instead of Irish women and hildren. His failure in Ireland disgraced him, distanced him from Elizabeth, nd contributed to his beheading. In contrast, Mountjoy made war on the ivilian population by driving all off the land, keeping them off the land, estroying their crops and food stores, starving them to death, and forcing heir surrender clan by clan. Cromwell didn't have to go back more than 40 ears for a blueprint on how to win in Ireland. The Cromwellian Wars came to Ireland in 1641 and, for Ireland, lasted 12 years until the surrender of Galway) plus about another 8 years if you count ontinued slave-raiding and extermination of rapparees. Best estimates of reland's population in 1641 range around 1.4 million. Best estimates for 1649 ange around 0.4 million. At which point Cromwell showed up to finish us off. Cromwell's own staff estimated that they shipped over 100,000 of us off to lavery in one year alone, 1650 if memory serves. How many others were killed n the fighting and related famine during 1649 to 1652? Estimates range as high s 250,000, but let's go with a more conservative figure of 50,000. If 400K ere left in 1649, from which at least 100K were sold into slavery and another 0K killed off in 3 years of war and related famine (which seems too low a igure to me but let's go with it anyway), then that leaves approximately 250K eft in Ireland in 1652. In other words, using even this conservative figure, we descend from no more han 18% of the Irish who were alive in 1641. Just because modern technology asn't used doesn't mean that doesn't constitute genocide. If you've ever wondered why John O'Donovan wrote so often in his Ordnance Survey hat he wasn't able to find any trace of so many Irish families listed, erritory by territory, in Dubhaltach Mac Fh irbhisigh's great mid-17th century enealogical work Leabhar Genealach ('Book of Genealogies'), now you know why. ome people seem to want photographic evidence of Cromwell shooting somebody, or aybe a taped confession. The lack of such anachronisms doesn't change the acts or warrant a whitewashing of his policies in Ireland.. Mar achoimre, mo mhallacht ar Chromail. Go dtuga Dia cothrom na Féinne dó in frinn. / To sum up, my curse on Cromwell. May God give him Justice in Hell. Le gach dea-ghuí / Best, - Jerry ------------- Original message from "Ivan Lennon" <ilennon@rochester.rr.com>: ------------- Far from attempting to minimize Cromwellian brutality... but... not all indigeneous R.C. people were banished "to hell or Connaught". It was the Irish "aristocracy" or leaders who were banished - many leaving their followers behind if they lacked the means to follow Nonetheless, by 1665 only 20% of land remained in R.C. hands w/ less than 5% in "planted" Ulster slan agus beannacht ----- Original Message ----- From: To: Sent: Monday, September 29, 2008 6:06 PM Subject: Re: [IRISH-AMER] Cromwell >I spend a great deql of time in the far out reaches of the Conamara >Gaeltacht. > Just lsten and look at these broken people-the descendants of a great > people-they will tell you their individual clan and family stories as > maintained in > their oral/sean nos traditio n- most came from Meath and the Midlands-they > are > living proof of to hell or to Connacht and live on in a barren rugged > landscape in spite of England's determination to kill their race off... > To hell with your book and God Bleess Ireland-Up the Republic- > > The Dream lives on! > Ta ar teanga fein beo fos!!!! Brian De Vale > > > > **************Looking for simple solutions to your real-life financial > challenges? Check out WalletPop for the latest news and information, tips > and > calculators. (http://www.walletpop.com/?NCID=emlcntuswall00000001) > > ====Irish American Mailing List===== > Add/check your surname to the Irish-American mailing list Surname Registry > at: http://www.connorsgenealogy.com/IrishAmerican/ > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > IRISH-AMERICAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without > the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ====Irish American Mailing List===== Add/check your surname to the Irish-American mailing list Surname Registry at: > http://www.connorsgenealogy.com/IrishAmerican/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRISH-AMERICAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ====Irish American Mailing List===== dd/check your surname t o the Irish-American mailing list Surname Registry at: ttp://www.connorsgenealogy.com/IrishAmerican/ ------------------------------- o unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to IRISH-AMERICAN-request@rootsweb.com ith the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of he message